What's Wrong With Communism?

[Agema]

To be fair, most Communist leaders and bureaucrats lived pretty austerely. I think many did genuinely believe in the ethos, rather than grub around for personal gain.

I'd agree with you that the revolution manifesto looks horrific by today's terms. However, Marxism was born in a revolutionary era, a long period of demands for reform, rights, political instability and often civil wars that ran between the late 18th century and the second world war. These were major preoccupations for public leaders and intellectuals, and would heavily have influenced their thinking. In terms of Marx considering killing the bourgeoisie, this is also the period where the working classes regularly were or felt they were repressed by the state (e.g. Haymarket Massacre, Peterloo Massacre) anyway. In those terms, Marx's view of how Communism would come about was very much a product of its time. It should be fair to say that in the last 100+ years, I expect modern Communists would have refined ways to implement Communism without revolution and mass murder.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Nothing wrong with communism. It's just people keep fucking it up miserably. Soviet Russia got headshot by the capitalist superiors America of the time. China and Korea I think prevailed because of their endless numbers and sheer rigid determination to cling onto dysfunctional political choices.

 

[Ninja_X]

Well, I like being an individual. I like being able to go to the grocery store and decide what I'm having for dinner. I like being able to create artwork and play music with the things that I own. I like being on the internet.

In short, I like being able to decide my quality of life.

If I really thought that humanity could just drop everything and coexist, than I would be for it. The fact that I know it can't makes me quite sad.

This is a perfect example of what i mean by Americans who fear Communism. Maybe it's because human nature fears what they don't know about?

Did you ever stop to think that Americans don't fear Communism but might actually enjoy their way of life as is? Shocking idea, I know.

Here Here!

I like being free to decide my own life thank you very much.

Communism takes away your freedom.

 

[Hedberger]

Well, I like being an individual. I like being able to go to the grocery store and decide what I'm having for dinner. I like being able to create artwork and play music with the things that I own. I like being on the internet.

In short, I like being able to decide my quality of life.

If I really thought that humanity could just drop everything and coexist, than I would be for it. The fact that I know it can't makes me quite sad.

This is a perfect example of what i mean by Americans who fear Communism. Maybe it's because human nature fears what they don't know about?

Did you ever stop to think that Americans don't fear Communism but might actually enjoy their way of life as is? Shocking idea, I know.

Just wondering if the americans that was born into poverty and drugs agree with you.

If you had read the Communist manifesto instead of just listening to anti-commie propaganda you would know you could do all those things.

But how? Everything has to be shared equally... how can anyone be an individual in that situation if all is equal? That is what confuses me on the subject.

That's where the American anti-communist propaganda shows it's ugly head.

You fear having your individuality taken away by a communist government.

But that's not what communism does.

It's not "Make everyone the same", it's "Make no one better than anyone else".

Your individuality remains intact, and you can do as you wish, so long as everyone is equal (not the same, just equal).

Finally, it's the perfect system on paper, but in practice it doesn't work as well as it should.

Just like every other political schema in history.

See, this is just were the entire theory of communism seems like beating a dead horse: people will never be fully equal to each other because we all have different strengths. And also, communism does encourage sameness at it's core: same pay for all jobs, no property ownership, not having anything that others don't have, never being truly rewarded for doing something well etc. In the end it either becomes corrupt or people just fail to achieve and unfortunately the former seems to happen first.

I play seven instruments and speak four languages. Let's say I have a neighbor who can't do that but knows how to design and build a house completely from the ground up. Then let's say that my other neighbor does nothing but smokes pot all day. Are we all equal from a social standpoint? Should all three of us be treated the exact same way, with the exact same pay? No.

I'm pretty sure that isn't the case and if it is i'm sure some small sdjustments is in order. The idea isn't to make people completely equal economicly but rather make sure that you don't have some super-rich people while others don't even have food and somewhere to live. That can of course be taken away from them if they don't show any sign of co-operation. But without food and somewhere to live i think you'll find it very hard to get a job and improve your situation.'

Edit: Where does people get this "Everyone should be completely equal" idea from? You don't have that in any of the communist countries that exist and i don't think it's mentioned in the manifesto.

 

[Agema]

Communist egalitarianism does not mean everyone earns the same amount. It means everyone has the same social, civil, political and economic rights.

Communist philosophers decided that the very wealthy come about from owning the means of production and exploiting their workers (who do not own the means of production). Their theory was that if ownership is communal, the profits of labour go to the workers, not to an owner who frequently does absolutely nothing except own.

A "worker" who does nothing out of laziness need not get paid at all: in a system where someone is due what he or she has worked for, they need to work to be due anything. Obviously those unable to work through illness, disability, or maybe just because there aren't enough jobs would deserve benefits to support their basic needs (food, accommodation, clothing, medicine), but need not receive anything more. Furthermore, within that system, there is obviously room for people to be paid different salaries. No Communist or socialist system to my knowledge has ever had the entire country on the same wage.

 

[Ockeghem]

Nothing is wrong with the concept of communism but if someone seeks to deceive then there will always be someone who will allow himself to be deceived. That is what Stalin did. A communistic system is too easy to corrupt.

 

[keinushi]

according to Marx, nothing. Provided the country goes through capitalism first. Russia skipped capitalism, thereby fucking everything up

Exactly why the USA might do great with Communism (MAYBE socialism) because it already has a stable economy (if you ignore everything it owes to China).

You are correct. We have the best chance at communism on this retched planet. provided all the commy haters die. but thats about as likely as me falling in love with a normal girl T_T. Fucking commy haters. I love communism, always have. but it does need the step stones of capitalism and socialism.

 

[Kair]

Pure communism is basically the idea that if there were a 100% income tax, people would still work.

O come on you know you would still love to spend 8=10 years in school to be a doctor or work 60 hours a week as a manager somewhere

I hate when people argue for communism based on some idealist view of of it rather than the reality. Communism will never work because humans are not equal nor do they desire to be. Those in power (a governing entity is a necessity) will lord over those that are not in power. Economies stagnate as incentive(wealth) is nullified. Plus there is the whole freedom thing, people like keeping what they earn and improving their life, we are very goal oriented people.

Communism doesn't even work on paper, (except in someones Utopian view of humanity) Communism cannot be brought about(except in small communities). Communism is not just, nor is it fair. It should be a dead ideology.

Socialism is supposed to shape the mind of the people.
Just like very few ever thought the world would stray away from feudalism, people now think the world will never stray away from capitalism.

Communism will always be criticized because it demands some intelligence and determination to figure out what it really is (Read any of Marx or Engelbergs texts and see for yourself) and it is so much easier to just believe what other people tell you it is. I doubt Reagan or McCarthy knew what communism was, because they referred to the economy of russia as communist. They were uninformed.
Take anarchy for an example, uninformed people will tell you it is a state of chaos without any laws, but people who have read about it know that it is merely a political system without rulers, from where its name derives.

Your approaching communism from the ideal of it not the reality(of which it is a dictatorial socialism). I'm not saying whats wrong with it in theory but in practice.
we take labels capitalism socialism communism and put them where they fit.

But anyways what is this intelligence that is required to understand communism? I read this by marx and think bad idea.
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.


What is this noble idea of communism that you so advocate is this part of what it means to you? I read that and I see CONTROL.

There are obviously things Marx was completely wrong about, he was not a psychic, but his predictions were accurate enough to land him some credibility. Don't take his word as law, he never even issued a plan for the execution of socialism, instead learn from his ideas and create a socialist system through trial and error, just like capitalism has barely succeeded through 200 years (5000 years if you count currency and trade) of such.

And yes, socialism is about control, it is about taking things into our own hands instead of letting things drift into decadence.
The western model has already severely altered the planets climate and almost depleted its resources, this is because of this non-intervention they speak so fondly of.
Also, freedom, the word often used to advocate non-intervention, is an empty word when used by American politicians, it is like a catchphrase and a codeword that automatically switches on the "he must be on to something" receptors among the politically blind. In most cases, freedom has absolutely nothing at all to do with what they are talking about, and is used merely to win the feeble minds of a dumbed down population.

 

[Yopaz]

What is wrong with communism? It looks good on the paper, but making a society based on communism would mean humans had to stop being greedy and hungry for power. Communism would mean an end to all classes, there would be no bosses with higher rank, it would be like talking to a person with the same rank as yourself as it is in capitalism. How can that be possible when it's all government control. That would mean there's always 2 classes, Mr person and Mr dictator. The fact that communism would mean end to democracy as some knows it today can be considered a bad thing I guess, but when democracy first started they did want a dictator again rather than the government they had voted for. What makes communism not work is that we're in such a modern world. Right now we got doctors, teachers, garbage drivers and those who are unemployed to mention some with different salary. Would a doctor want what a garbage man is earning rather than his current salary? Would an unemployed man study to get into a school with a doctor's salary. No matter how hard you work communism wont let you get any higher than the garbage driver or any lower for that matter. And of course, if the world was based on communism we would have to live like India to make it be really equal. Would any of you give up your computer? Would anyone in a western society sacrifice their comfortable lives? Some would, most wouldn't. Communism wont work because we need to be put up against each other. We need a reason to work harder. We need promotions, we need money we need hopes for tomorrow, not the knowledge that nothing will change.

For those who don't know Obama is not a communist. I live in Norway which is a socialist country and I can say that from our view Obama's not even a socialist. He's a good social liberal, but you're not a socialist because you want to increase the taxes for the rich people.

 

[Abedeus]

Everyone is equal. Except for the government.

And instead of a pyramid, there is a big square, where 85% of the community is, then 4 ladders and corrupted cops and lawyers standing on it, supporting a small box with government puppets.

There is also a giant tower next to the structure, where Soviet Union or other controlling country's leader is. Or the leader of that communistic country.

Poland was communistic for 50 years and we are still suffering from it. You know how smart people were? When they wasted all our money, they... PRINTED MORE MONEY!

How cool is that? Eveyone was equally poor. I'm sorry, not poor. You had a lot of money. But you had no food to buy, no technology worth buying... It was horrible, standing in 5-hour lines for a pound of cheese and some bread. No meat - people saved it for holidays, because it was too rare.

 

[Fulax]

Well, I like being an individual. I like being able to go to the grocery store and decide what I'm having for dinner. I like being able to create artwork and play music with the things that I own. I like being on the internet.

In short, I like being able to decide my quality of life.

If I really thought that humanity could just drop everything and coexist, than I would be for it. The fact that I know it can't makes me quite sad.

This is a perfect example of what i mean by Americans who fear Communism. Maybe it's because human nature fears what they don't know about?

Did you ever stop to think that Americans don't fear Communism but might actually enjoy their way of life as is? Shocking idea, I know.

Just wondering if the americans that was born into poverty and drugs agree with you.

Yes they probably would agree, because those crazy Americans believe that a determined individual can work his/her way out of poverty.

Here in Europe our socialist masters have taught us that without their help, the poor will be trapped forever. Now we have an utterly apathetic and defeatist working class who just accept their fate. Hooray for socialism.

 

[ablac]

basically communism is a fantastic idea so long as you forget humans and stuff it doesnt work not because there is a problem with the idea but with the people meant to use it human nature doesnt allow equaity so on paper its great but then it simply doesnt work with humans



also china says its communist but really its a one party state with a capitalist economy communism does not allow trade i think with other nations or non-communist nations



and all of that probably sounds rubbish

 

[Borrowed Time]

Well, I like being an individual. I like being able to go to the grocery store and decide what I'm having for dinner. I like being able to create artwork and play music with the things that I own. I like being on the internet.

In short, I like being able to decide my quality of life.

If I really thought that humanity could just drop everything and coexist, than I would be for it. The fact that I know it can't makes me quite sad.

This is a perfect example of what i mean by Americans who fear Communism. Maybe it's because human nature fears what they don't know about?

Did you ever stop to think that Americans don't fear Communism but might actually enjoy their way of life as is? Shocking idea, I know.

Just wondering if the americans that was born into poverty and drugs agree with you.

Yes they probably would agree, because those crazy Americans believe that a determined individual can work his/her way out of poverty.

Here in Europe our socialist masters have taught us that without their help, the poor will be trapped forever. Now we have an utterly apathetic and defeatist working class who just accept their fate. Hooray for socialism.

Agreed. Unfortunately though, many here in the States are beginning to have the mentality of "down with the rich!" Yes I understand that some individuals were simply handed their fortunes, but so many more actually worked from the ground up with little to nothing. Since when were people lauded for their hard work and success? Oh yeah! Since we all became little sniveling, greedy punks who are too jealous of our neighbor and too lazy to help ourselves! Doh! Sorry, senior moment there.

I absolutely hate it when people constantly point at a "caste system" in Capitalism. Sure, there are lower class, middle class, etc... but they are by no means forever locked into those. Any individual who has any amount of ingenuity and ambition can progress in a capitalistic society. The rest that want to be lazy reap exactly what they've sown.

 

[LiftYourSkinnyFists]

When you look at the communist ideals and how it would be if there were no implied factors when equalizing the economies there is nothing stopping communism other than people themselves; I'm talking about human corruption, greed and overall materialism. There is no way in hell that anybody could create a successful communist regime in todays day and age with out the scrutiny of our democratic liberal/republic what ever it is we have today.

Oh yeah, and the people who wanted to implement it were not the nicest of people I'll have you know. /sadfaec

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

It's unnecessary and sadly pointless to discuss 'communism' without defining terms, especially if you intend to distinguish it from Marxism or leave out the uglier of Marx's writings.

One definition of communism restricts it's meaning to an economic preference. That means it's simply a particular structure or way of organizing. Strictly speaking, no one has to be communist who doesn't want to when we use the word in this sense. What's important is that people are free- if people freely choose the communist structure and are free on the individual level to abandon it, then communism is nothing more than another preference in organizational structure and OK with me.

If someone says they are a Communist, remember there are two kinds-

1. Anarcho-communists who prefer communist structure themselves but have every reason to tolerate whatever alternative structure you may desire. And...

2. Marxists, Stalinists, and Bolsheviks-parading-as-anarcho-communists who, for whatever reason, don't believe in free choice or believe in a communist state as a long-term or temporary goal. These are the ones who always end up shooting their anarcho-communist 'comrades'.

 

[DrDeath3191]

The problem with Communism is that it doesn't work. Someone will take power, or otherwise buck the system. It's human nature.

 

[Doth]

Nothing wrong with communism.

It's the subjects that are.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Well, I like being an individual. I like being able to go to the grocery store and decide what I'm having for dinner. I like being able to create artwork and play music with the things that I own. I like being on the internet.

In short, I like being able to decide my quality of life.

If I really thought that humanity could just drop everything and coexist, than I would be for it. The fact that I know it can't makes me quite sad.

This is a perfect example of what i mean by Americans who fear Communism. Maybe it's because human nature fears what they don't know about?

Did you ever stop to think that Americans don't fear Communism but might actually enjoy their way of life as is? Shocking idea, I know.

Just wondering if the americans that was born into poverty and drugs agree with you.

Yes they probably would agree, because those crazy Americans believe that a determined individual can work his/her way out of poverty.

Here in Europe our socialist masters have taught us that without their help, the poor will be trapped forever. Now we have an utterly apathetic and defeatist working class who just accept their fate. Hooray for socialism.

Agreed. Unfortunately though, many here in the States are beginning to have the mentality of "down with the rich!" Yes I understand that some individuals were simply handed their fortunes, but so many more actually worked from the ground up with little to nothing. Since when were people lauded for their hard work and success? Oh yeah! Since we all became little sniveling, greedy punks who are too jealous of our neighbor and too lazy to help ourselves! Doh! Sorry, senior moment there.

I absolutely hate it when people constantly point at a "caste system" in Capitalism. Sure, there are lower class, middle class, etc... but they are by no means forever locked into those. Any individual who has any amount of ingenuity and ambition can progress in a capitalistic society. The rest that want to be lazy reap exactly what they've sown.

Any small 'l' libertarian or anarchist will point out that wealth disparities are enabled by government protectionism, taxation and usury. Under free market conditions (and not just any market is a free market- stupid Republicans), wealth disparities tend to minimize and the middle class expands at the expense of the other classes. I don't think it's fair to be down on the poor- corporate plutocracy really is making their lives artificially shitty.

Early use of the word 'capitalism' referred to a system kind of like what we have now, where capital is artificially restricted into protected (cartelized, monopolized) industries. The cruelest joke of modern times is that so many still see their oppressors as saviors- as if they needed to be rescued from freedom itself.

 

[Borrowed Time]

Any small 'l' libertarian or anarchist will point out that wealth disparities are enabled by government protectionism, taxation and usury. Under free market conditions (and not just any market is a free market- stupid Republicans), wealth disparities tend to minimize and the middle class expands at the expense of the other classes. I don't think it's fair to be down on the poor- corporate plutocracy really is making their lives artificially shitty.

Early use of the word 'capitalism' referred to a system kind of like what we have now, where capital is artificially restricted into protected (cartelized, monopolized) industries. The cruelest joke of modern times is that so many still see their oppressors as saviors- as if they needed to be rescued from freedom itself.

The Pareto distribution of wealth mainly occurs only under idealized conditions. As much as Communism would work with out the human element, (and has been proven to work in many small communities where individuals were allowed to enter into and leave the commun by choice) free market is dependant upon the same perfect world unfortunately. Look up Joseph Stiglitz's conclusions. As much as Milton Friedman's ideas are sound and point to the growth of an economy tied to true freedom, it is based upon a perfect world.

 

[Dioxide20]

Too many Americans are afraid of it.
AND, others believe that Obama will make America a communistic society.
But, i see no problem in this. Communism is a great idea if a country already has a stable economy, and hey, free healthcare would be great. It's a great idea it's just been used wrong.

So really, what's wrong with Communism?

Sorry dude, but its a Socialist Nation everyone is afraid that Obama will create.