What's Wrong with Xbox Live?
- Thread starter Shamus Young
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Maybe slightly off topic, but I really had to comment on the whole "Let us run private servers!" angle.
Personally I much prefer the world of the 360's matchmaking than I do the PC-style "Server Browser". Bad Company 2 on the PC spelled this out for me - while trying to play with 3 friends we either had the choice of joining half-dead servers (whose lag you couldn't gauge until they finally fixed the browser), or trying to join a server with 4/5 spots (which pretty much meant 3 of you get in, one doesn't and the whole cycle starts again - again this is now fixed by allowing you to queue, but that took months). It takes at least three times as long to find a game (and that's excluding the "Oh, this server is set to some stupid game rules" or "Hmm, they've turned feature X off, which we want") as it does on any of the matchmaking systems of the console world.
As far as I'm concerned, I want to form a group and join a game. On XBOX Live (Halo being the first game that comes to mind) this is simple and quick. Yeah, you occasionally end up with jerks, but it's only for one game and you can set the system to avoid them in future (and you can just as easily run into jerks on PC games - just 'cos then CAN be moderated doesn't mean they are, server admins have to sleep).
That said, some PC games have embraced matchmaking to good effect. StarCraft 2 nails the system for me. Pick players, game type, some basic options and let StarCraft do the rest. Game in 3 minutes or less, against appropriately skilled players. Go Blizzard.
Simply put - please don't bring the dreaded server browser to my more casual multiplayer console - I don't want to spend 15 minutes finding a server each time I want a game, I just want to push a button and have the system find me a match that's roughly to my liking.
Personally I much prefer the world of the 360's matchmaking than I do the PC-style "Server Browser". Bad Company 2 on the PC spelled this out for me - while trying to play with 3 friends we either had the choice of joining half-dead servers (whose lag you couldn't gauge until they finally fixed the browser), or trying to join a server with 4/5 spots (which pretty much meant 3 of you get in, one doesn't and the whole cycle starts again - again this is now fixed by allowing you to queue, but that took months). It takes at least three times as long to find a game (and that's excluding the "Oh, this server is set to some stupid game rules" or "Hmm, they've turned feature X off, which we want") as it does on any of the matchmaking systems of the console world.
As far as I'm concerned, I want to form a group and join a game. On XBOX Live (Halo being the first game that comes to mind) this is simple and quick. Yeah, you occasionally end up with jerks, but it's only for one game and you can set the system to avoid them in future (and you can just as easily run into jerks on PC games - just 'cos then CAN be moderated doesn't mean they are, server admins have to sleep).
That said, some PC games have embraced matchmaking to good effect. StarCraft 2 nails the system for me. Pick players, game type, some basic options and let StarCraft do the rest. Game in 3 minutes or less, against appropriately skilled players. Go Blizzard.
Simply put - please don't bring the dreaded server browser to my more casual multiplayer console - I don't want to spend 15 minutes finding a server each time I want a game, I just want to push a button and have the system find me a match that's roughly to my liking.
Being mainly a console gamer, I have a question to ask: the dedicated servers idea certainly seems to have merit, even if I'm not sure I'd want it over what Xbox Live is currently.
But who would pay $20 a month to run their own servers? I mean, it sounds like you pay to run a server but it's free to join other servers. Wouldn't everyone want to join servers, and only a few care enough to pay the cost? Because that sounds expensive. And then how would you play online if there were not enough servers?
But who would pay $20 a month to run their own servers? I mean, it sounds like you pay to run a server but it's free to join other servers. Wouldn't everyone want to join servers, and only a few care enough to pay the cost? Because that sounds expensive. And then how would you play online if there were not enough servers?
I agree, I ran my own game server for a while and it was great. All the people I enjoyed playing with showed up and if idiots dropping n-bombs and swearing all the time showed up I could just ban and remove them, so everyone else's game didn't get disrupted. This is a serious problem too, like everytime I fire up mw2 now, the very first thing i do is mute everybody, instead of checking my weapon loadouts. It's like you said, it's better if you can choose your own bar, and your own game server.
I'll break this answer into two parts, for both questions you asked.ranger19 said:
1) Who would pay for servers? A lot of people, in fact! $20, while not insignificant, is not much money to host a social network over which you are basically God. It is your server, no one else's. You can do whatever you want. Want custom textures, sound files, entire new game modes? You have the power to do that, and you can bring your friends along to play it, and their friends and those friends' friends.
2) How would you play online if there weren't enough servers? The principles of economics apply to this. The number of servers will naturally fluctuate with the number of active players. This is guided by the <url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand>invisible hand that governs supply and demand. If there are not enough servers, people will make them, for the aforementioned reasons. If there are too many servers, then many will simply be empty, which may cause the server owners to shut them down. The entire thing is self-regulating and shouldn't be a major concern.
That line about how Xbox owners don't say anything because people are too busy yelling and filling the room with bile sums up my Xbox life. Whenever someone sees that I have a mic, they instantly go "Hey, say something. Say something. Come on man, can't you talk? Say something." I'll say "Hi" maybe, but that's it. I don't want to take part in a conversation that makes my skin crawl.
If player-run servers were to become the secondary standard, they could lessen the price of Xbox Live Gold, and simply add on an additional price for the matchmaking service.
You know, Sony has been looking for a way to get in line with MS's online console service. This may be their gateway. Allowing 3rd party mods and player-run server support (a la counterstrike 1.6 model, where all additional mods were auto-installed before you entered the server), they could bring a whole new group of gamers to their system. That, combined with a new streamlined, integrated and standardized multiplayer support, could make them as a new power in multiplayer.
Edit: At first, I thought Microsoft had nothing but contempt for the PC. Now I think they have nothing but contempt for their consumers.
You know, Sony has been looking for a way to get in line with MS's online console service. This may be their gateway. Allowing 3rd party mods and player-run server support (a la counterstrike 1.6 model, where all additional mods were auto-installed before you entered the server), they could bring a whole new group of gamers to their system. That, combined with a new streamlined, integrated and standardized multiplayer support, could make them as a new power in multiplayer.
Edit: At first, I thought Microsoft had nothing but contempt for the PC. Now I think they have nothing but contempt for their consumers.
This was exactly my issue. I don't mind Xbox raising its prices, but don't try to pretend you are offering some grand set of services, because you aren't.Woodsey said:
Cool, thanks for the (fast!) response. First - whoa - I did not know you could do so much with dedicated servers! I thought it would just be a matter of, say, turning off the grenade launcher or stopping MLC classes in MW2, but.. wow and changing textures means you could make the game look even better, right?Earthbound said:
The second part I get it a bit of economics. I guess this struck me as one of those times where free trade would break down - I can't think of a perfect example, but imagine if it were cheaper (and legal) for a company to dump their sewage into a river than get it treated for proper disposal, almost all companies would dump it. But then in the long run the river would get all polluted and maybe become too toxic for the factories to stay there. So it's best for everybody if nobody dumps in the river, but everyone will. (If that makes sense.)
I just thought that it would be like that for dedicated servers - like, I was expecting there to be a part about how the guy who buys the server charges people like $1 a month to join or something. Obviously the system does work because it exists.. I guess I was a bit surprise at it is all. Thanks again for the explanation though.
I didn't know much about the Xbox 360 being a bit of a PS3 fanboy, but i figured it had a few nice features even if i wasn't big on the exclusives.
After reading this i'm thinking... does the 360 really have any redeeming features?
So far the only thing that i prefer to PS3 is the cute avatar things that waggle their head when you move the analog stick, everything else on there seems immensely stupid.
After reading this i'm thinking... does the 360 really have any redeeming features?
So far the only thing that i prefer to PS3 is the cute avatar things that waggle their head when you move the analog stick, everything else on there seems immensely stupid.
Interestingly Shamus didn't mention that there are xbox live moderators. They are however rare and psychotic, you think being booted from a server because you killed the host is bad well try a ban on for size. Also a number of the ones that my friends have run into have been extraordinarily racist/nationalist/idiots in that with a server almost full of american 13 year olds swearing their little mouths of they ban the Australian the one time swears.
I've been playing online games on xbox live pretty heavily and I am yet to personally see one of these mods at work so one easy fix would be to:
a) make sure the mods aren't axe crazy
b) get more of them
c) make the complaint system do something, if the mods were automatically put into matches that had been getting an escalating number of complaints then some of the worst players would be dealt with pretty quickly.
That all said servers of some kind would be nice, what would be nicer is if there was an easier way to get all of your friends into a game. I am so sick of the words "we'll just drop out and pick him up", due to the necessity of leaving a game lobby in CoD:MW2 and joining an in-game party if you want your friend to be on your team.
I've been playing online games on xbox live pretty heavily and I am yet to personally see one of these mods at work so one easy fix would be to:
a) make sure the mods aren't axe crazy
b) get more of them
c) make the complaint system do something, if the mods were automatically put into matches that had been getting an escalating number of complaints then some of the worst players would be dealt with pretty quickly.
That all said servers of some kind would be nice, what would be nicer is if there was an easier way to get all of your friends into a game. I am so sick of the words "we'll just drop out and pick him up", due to the necessity of leaving a game lobby in CoD:MW2 and joining an in-game party if you want your friend to be on your team.
Why does Microsoft pull this shit? Because they want control.
That's the only explanation I can come up with.
Consider these little nuggets of information:
-They gather your usage time.
-They track your gaming habits. They sell this marketing info, or use it to refine targeted advertising campaigns. Personal info is a big business.
-They advertise on the system you are already paying to maintain; alluding back to what made the original point of Cable TV fail.
And, again, YOU ARE STILL PAYING FOR THIS.
All of that, and ZERO, I mean ZERO fucking accountability.
I've sat around for an hour waiting to start a basic match of Bad Company 2 (on a FIOS connection no less, so it isn't on my end). What am I paying for during that one hour again?
Surely it isn't access to Twitter, or Facebook, or Netflix, because I can access those From a fucking public library! Or any other internet-enabled computer on the face of the planet!
The only people I've ever seen them go after are hackers (obviously).
Oh, and the infamous 14 year old racist? Those exist. It isn't just an Urban Legend. The best thing players can do is mute the voice+chat and then brace for impact. Or play with friends-only (which is what I do now).
And despite all of this, Microsoft would NEVER permit players, or non-Microsoft entities to host their own servers, even on their terms. Why? Because once you give away the Golden Goose, those eggs lose their value.
Or put more bluntly: Someone will hack/copy the platform, and suddenly Microsoft isn't in control anymore.
Yet it seems Steam doesn't have any of these problems...or if they do, its impact is minimal.
In my opinion, Microsoft has hidden under the cover of "We are providing a service" for too long.
It's true in a technical sense, yes, but you really aren't getting your money's worth anymore, and the only reason they get away with this shit is because it's their monopoly on their system.
Sound off and call that last line stupid or obvious if it will make you feel good, but Xbox Live is a microcosm of what happens in a monopoly: Prices hike, service/product value falls. They know they will make money because you don't have any other choice in the matter. There are no negotiation, and few incentives to do better.
And if that interests you, fine. It's your time and money, not mine.
That's the only explanation I can come up with.
Consider these little nuggets of information:
-They gather your usage time.
-They track your gaming habits. They sell this marketing info, or use it to refine targeted advertising campaigns. Personal info is a big business.
-They advertise on the system you are already paying to maintain; alluding back to what made the original point of Cable TV fail.
And, again, YOU ARE STILL PAYING FOR THIS.
All of that, and ZERO, I mean ZERO fucking accountability.
I've sat around for an hour waiting to start a basic match of Bad Company 2 (on a FIOS connection no less, so it isn't on my end). What am I paying for during that one hour again?
Surely it isn't access to Twitter, or Facebook, or Netflix, because I can access those From a fucking public library! Or any other internet-enabled computer on the face of the planet!
The only people I've ever seen them go after are hackers (obviously).
Oh, and the infamous 14 year old racist? Those exist. It isn't just an Urban Legend. The best thing players can do is mute the voice+chat and then brace for impact. Or play with friends-only (which is what I do now).
And despite all of this, Microsoft would NEVER permit players, or non-Microsoft entities to host their own servers, even on their terms. Why? Because once you give away the Golden Goose, those eggs lose their value.
Or put more bluntly: Someone will hack/copy the platform, and suddenly Microsoft isn't in control anymore.
Yet it seems Steam doesn't have any of these problems...or if they do, its impact is minimal.
In my opinion, Microsoft has hidden under the cover of "We are providing a service" for too long.
It's true in a technical sense, yes, but you really aren't getting your money's worth anymore, and the only reason they get away with this shit is because it's their monopoly on their system.
Sound off and call that last line stupid or obvious if it will make you feel good, but Xbox Live is a microcosm of what happens in a monopoly: Prices hike, service/product value falls. They know they will make money because you don't have any other choice in the matter. There are no negotiation, and few incentives to do better.
And if that interests you, fine. It's your time and money, not mine.
I like how you said WHEN the vegetarian server will turn to crap, not IF.
Without strict moderation everything is apparently expected to turn into another 4chan. Weird how the world works.
Without strict moderation everything is apparently expected to turn into another 4chan. Weird how the world works.
And they breed like rabbits. (Well, more accurately, their ideas do. I doubt they'll be doing any breeding now, or ever in their lifetimes.)Atmos Duality said:
Why do you always have such awesome ideas? Seriously, you come up with the best solutions to a myriad of problems plaguing the gaming industry, ideas which I would give anything to be actually implemented. Why the hell aren't you some big-wig gaming consultant pulling six figures a year? What the hell are you doing HERE?!?!Shamus Young said:
Also, I loved Free Radical. Read it in two sittings, and thats only because I had to go to class.
There's no way MS would do that, because it would undermine their pricing schemes:
MS has been pushing the paid DLC like a crack dealer hanging outside a playground, bribing passersby to say its great!
If a studio suddenly started giving the DLC away, it would set a bad precedent.
Also, this is a backstep away from their plan to make us pay for EVERYTHING regardless of whether they could give it away or not.
MS has been pushing the paid DLC like a crack dealer hanging outside a playground, bribing passersby to say its great!
If a studio suddenly started giving the DLC away, it would set a bad precedent.
Also, this is a backstep away from their plan to make us pay for EVERYTHING regardless of whether they could give it away or not.
