When did PvE become "wuss" mode?

[AT God]

Aside from FPS games that require it, IE TF2, CSS, etc I have never played online games purely to fight others. I have played months of mmo's and in one particular example have only done pvp 3 times over the course of approximately 174 days of ingame play time, all for about an hour total. I hate in mmo's where you have to make a decision to do PVP at the very start and therefore miss out on the pve content because increasing your defense makes you weaker against other people. I prefer to do everything and even being near the level cap on said MMO I still get killed before I see what happened because of people who are designed purely to kill me. The only way PvP is ever fair in my opinion is when two people have the same equipment and stats, therefore making it a matter of strategy instead of go kill cows until your numbers are better then his numbers and come back and click the shit out of him.

 

[Kahohess]

And this doesn't apply to PvP somehow?

I did talk about pve in my statement because i'm more familiar with it; but yes, it can apply to pvp, in fact that pretty much the only pvp i can enjoy at some point. Thing is, what i quoted is about "facing another human", so 1vs1.

 

[Smeggs]

I'm also getting the same backlash for choosing Skyrim over the new Modern Warfare.

...wut

I'd much rather buy a game I know will easily give me 100+ hours on the first playthrough than another FPS which I will beat in probably under 20 hours, then play multiplayer for about a week before I get sick of all the little bitches who whine that somehow using the grenade launcher to kill them as opposed to getting killed by them for NOT using it is "noob-tubing."

 

[Kiju]

PvE is "Wuss Mode" simply because it's us against AI. They have set patterns, parameters they can't exceed, and are locked into their programming. People are not.

I'm not trying to promote PvP (I hate it myself), I just don't frankly understand why people seem to have a problem with PvE. PvP is great fun, but only when you're going against people who are just in it for the fun, and not the fact that winning is everything, and they will use every exploit, legal "cheat", and practice both of these until they're unbeatable. Then it becomes just fun for them.

Sadly, it's impossible to make a PvP environment entirely fair. There will be people who attempt to play against people of a lower skill just to stroke their e-peen when they look at their K/D ratio. I play League of Legends. There are massive skill gaps between players, a humongous learning curve, and there is next to no true balance between characters. Why do I still play it, then? Because I play it with friends, and every once in awhile we get a match that's a load of fun because we're against a group of other friends who are cool people, and treat it as merely a game. No raging, no griefing, just fun.

I think PvE is fun though. I joined WoW to play nothing but the PvE, and I completely ignored the PvP. But I will be the first to say that after you've gotten to a certain point, there's nothing left to do except PvP. :\

 

[Eventidal]

What game are you talking about? A combination shooting game and RPG?

I'm really talking about games in general, though I'm trying Fallen Earth and getting the same results. I'm also getting the same backlash for choosing Skyrim over the new Modern Warfare.

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

That's fine, to me there's no greater reward than cleaning out a camp, or making that new sweet rifle, but why am I suddenly some kind of wuss because my goals are different? That's the question.

Don't let the 10 year old kids sway you. Seriously, if you chose MW over Skyrim, I'd have to personally come over to your house and trade your PC out for an Xbox 360.

 

[phazaar]

Same reason that beating 'Deep Purple' (it was Deep Purple, right? Du-du-duhhh, du-du-duduhhhh, du-du-duhhhh, du-duuuuuhhhh) is never going to be as impressive as Gary Kasparov.

If you reduce it to FPS, who has -ever- failed to beat a singleplayer campaign? And yet how many people have even been in the top 100 BF players?



So there's the fact that people see it as more competitive. The reason that then turns into outright sissy-treatment and hatred is that it's all too often the 'let me play the game my way' argument that descends into those of us who like the 'other way' being straight-jacketed or even griefed ourselves. It's strange to say it, but the worst griefers are those who use the rules set out to protect the 'let me play the game my way' crowd when it suits them, but the moment they have the numbers or whatever other advantage is necessary to reduce the competition to nonsense they'll revert to griefing, and often you'll encounter things where (as you describe) you're then bound to stay on the 'to be griefed' side of things because you don't have time to unflag/buff/replace items etc.

The argument from the PvP side then is that those are all simply faults in game design and a game can be 'free for all' (or however you'd like to phrase it) without permitting griefing, or with permission but penalties etc.


From an ethical standpoint though, what happens to your 'let me play the game my way' argument if I said that my way of playing the game is to make as many players as possible miserable and ragequit? Why shouldn't I play the game my way? If you want to play it your way, make sure you've got the infrastructure in place to stop me/get me back, so I don't pick on you and I go elsewhere. The ACTUAL problem with your guild switching to PvP is that they clearly still work with a PvE mindset. They're goal orientated 'we are blockading this city this afternoon', rather than 'we are blockading this ci-- What's that? You've just logged in and are being loading-killed by some n00bs? We're on our way.'

I've never been in a guild that wouldn't drop any necessary ops to protect its own...

 

[lockeslylcrit]

When did PvE become "wuss" mode?

1999 with the introduction of EverQuest and the Tallon Zek and Vallon Zek (race PvP) servers.
Then the attitude only got worse in 2000 when every Ultima Online server was split into two facets: Trammel (PvE) and Felucca (PvP).

These can be seen as the birth of the PvP elitism attitude toward "carebear" servers and players. Personally, I prefer PvE much more than PvP, but it's really a matter of preference.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

I'm cool with losing here and there, but I don't do a whole lot of PvP unless it's splitscreen or splitcreen online; I really just need someone else in the room. I do a little bit of Assassin's Creed multiplayer by myself, but I still prefer some company. But I'm with you, I play alot of COD and Gears with bots on easy beause I like to win. I don't win when I play those games online.

 

[lockeslylcrit]

Stupid double post.

Mod Edit~ yes that was a stupid double post, *stern look*, don't do it again

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

well

Having recently bothered to pick COD up and give it another go, I think that pvp is a pile of stupid bullshit.
Maybe its just that game but PVP seems to go like this:

Spawn. Instantly die. Repeat a couple times.
Maybe kill a few guys. Then die to a 'friendly' grenade.
Build up a bit of momentum.
Shoot a guy and he somehow fucking lives, then kills you.
Spawn and die instantly for a bit again.

Gaaaah. What the hell?



If you're on about WoW, the pvp used to be pretty good. Dunno what its like now. But theres no point running around flagged for pvp, just do BGs and the like.

WoW pvp is difficult if you don't have the gear....but then again. It's not hard to get the gear...just kinda time consuming. Hell you can PvE to get PvP gear, and if that's what this guy is talking about (wow) he needs to maybe put some effort into it.....although idk what game dude is playing so idk but chances are....he has PvE gear..and 9/10 times...its shit in pvp.

thats part of the problem its too easy to get the gear now so wankers can get the gear and make pvp less fun by being dumb, arrogant or obnoxious. i have always been a "hardcore" (i didnt choose the title) PVPer but it's so easy for ppl to get gear you used to have to earn that i find pvp matches unbearable b4 midnight and after 6am not a problem for me but i work in the entertainment business so thats my downtime. but its that attitude problem with a large portion of the mmo society that i have experienced an increase in over the last 12 months, that has caused me to quit all mmo's (except lego universe yeah baby!)untill TOR comes out.

appologies for the spelling , grammer and general incoherency of that statement i've been drinking

EDIT after thought: when i say dumb i dont mind if ppl arent good at pvp they can learn its when people intentionally do stupid stuff or go against the teams plan that annoys me. We all know what happened to bob... ;p

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

Having recently bothered to pick COD up and give it another go, I think that pvp is a pile of stupid bullshit.
Maybe its just that game but PVP seems to go like this:

Spawn. Instantly die. Repeat a couple times.
Maybe kill a few guys. Then die to a 'friendly' grenade.
Build up a bit of momentum.
Shoot a guy and he somehow fucking lives, then kills you.
Spawn and die instantly for a bit again.

Gaaaah. What the hell?



If you're on about WoW, the pvp used to be pretty good. Dunno what its like now. But theres no point running around flagged for pvp, just do BGs and the like.

that is often a problem with FPS PVP games. COD, crysis2 etc that have a levelling up system need to do something to balance the field a bit. it really does suck if u just bought the game and you are trying to go up against ppl who are so high lvl they can kill you with 1 shot in the chest and withstand multiple headshots.

 

[Johann610]

Around the time that Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 Arena came out, there was a surge of PvP gaming. The going theory then became that PvE was just a tutorial for multiplayer online, and that the AI could be a sack of hammers for it, because player tactics change all the time, etc., etc.
Most developers do NOT subscribe there, but the bigger the PvP focus in a game, the worse it gets. After all, balancing the human classes against each other is full-time work (watch TF2 re-balance in update after update after update), and re-writing AI to be balanced as well is a task that doesn't even figure in, in that case. Wuss-mode AI that can't handle advanced player tactics, the result, makes the PvP experience seem richer, and the cycle is perpetuated.
I quit PvP because there's no player progression, but that's another story.

 

[phazaar]

that is often a problem with FPS PVP games. COD, crysis2 etc that have a levelling up system need to do something to balance the field a bit. it really does suck if u just bought the game and you are trying to go up against ppl who are so high lvl they can kill you with 1 shot in the chest and withstand multiple headshots.

Without getting e-peeny on this, is there no one else here that feels that at rank 1 they're a bit constrained but really not considerably worse than at rank 55 in BC2 or rank whateveritis in MW2? Certainly not to the scale of being a 1-shot or ever having to land multiple headshots on a target?? Sounds like you're just not adjusting to the ping-based combat as quickly as you could. Try playing it for a few days, see if you get into it once you know what's going on and stuff. Maybe even try some strats My second round in BF3 was 27:3 because I realised that no one can see you if you lie in the bushes. No need for unlocks or anything

 

[Pearwood]

PvP is just more competitive that's all. Therefore it has a disproportionate amount of hypercompetitive pricks compared to PvE.

 

[Da Orky Man]

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

You evidently haven't tried WaW on Veteran.

 

[Bat Vader]

I tried to PVP once in WoW and it will be the last time I PVP in any MMO. The dying really didn't bother me. It was the amount of people that got so obsessed over it and insulted anyone else that did badly.

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

Sure, that is the ideal version of it. But when done poorly Open World PvP can make questing, or PvE a nightmare in an MMO.

Using Age of Conan for example, anywhere outside of hubs (major cities) you could get killed by anyone that wasn't in your team or guild through PvP. Safe for a few campsites in each area where elite NPC guards would attack anyone initiating PVP. But outside of those few safe spots, anything could happen. Your average "PvPer" in Age of Conan wasn't looking for a challenge, he was looking for easy PvP Exp, which meant they'd attack you after you started fighting a group of NPC enemies so that you're pretty much doomed to die in between both the player and the NPC enemies hacking away at you. This could happen just about anywhere, so if your quest involved clearing out a camp deep in the area and then slaying a boss at the centre of it, it was pretty likely you'd get attacked during your boss fight as your assailants followed you in stealth while you did your work, then kill you during the boss fight and essentially force you to start all over again as by the time you reach that camp again everyone would've respawned.

Other methods included forming a full team of six players and pouncing any lonely adventurer together, and well, you can't survive six against one odds for longer than a few seconds.

So really, while PvP should be about a good challenge of two individuals engaging in a fair fight between one another, my experiences in AoC have taught me that most "Hardcore PvPers" are opportunistic pigs who won't engage in any fight they can't easily win and arguably even play for the very purpose of ruining the fun of other players.

Which is why I like my PvP to be of the Guild Wars variety, where two equally sized teams need to work together to complete objectives or stop the other team from completing them, or variations of popular FPS modes like CTF or control points/domination. It gives everyone involved a fighting chance and it is indeed all about the challenge of facing down enemies who are (hopefully) just as smart as you are.

 

[zerobudgetgamer]

In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

In my experience, there is no greater challenge than making 25 people do what they are supposed to do for 5 minutes... hell, even not dying was a challenge for some of them.

And this doesn't apply to PvP somehow? Have you seen some of the battles in Eve Online? Hundreds of people on each side of the fight. A good FC in some PvP capable games is on par with a Korean SC2 pro, except in SC2 your units aren't drunk, not paying attention or disobeying on a regular basis.

It's not that it doesn't apply to PvP, per se, it's that the mere thought of applying the same thing to PvE is somehow such a draconian thought to game developers that they dare not consider it, much less implement it. See, for all the dramatization there is around how PvP is so much better, it's actually FAR easier of an option for designers. Think about it, if you want to create a 100-man Raid, you have to factor in the average dps this number of people can do, figure out how much health to give the boss so that it balances challenge with a reasonable time limit, make sure it can't do more damage than the tanks can take or the healers can heal, and then add any other parameters while trying to constantly keep in mind all 100 of those players.

But 100 v. 100, or 1000 v. 1000 PvP? Outside of creating the classes at the beginning of making the game and giving them an arena, absolutely nothing, AFAIK. NO extra coding has to go into making PvP outside of the specific areas that you can do it in, and in most games you don't even need that. I'm not saying PvP can't have some really thrilling outcomes, but looking at it from the other side of the coin, designers that decide to focus on PvP are typically taking the easier route, which seems to be what most PvPers harass PvEers for doing...

PvE is "Wuss Mode" simply because it's us against AI. They have set patterns, parameters they can't exceed, and are locked into their programming. People are not.

Characters are always restricted by the abilities/skills of their class, the parameters of their gear, and the programming that their classes have been given. They're simply given a small amount greater freedom. PvE bosses could be SO much more devastating and challenging, if designers were willing to go to the extra effort to make them as such.

 

[MorganL4]

We all play how we want to play, we set our own challenges. In my opinion there is no grater challenge than facing another human player.

I don't disagree, but it is not a "challenge" when the other player is 10 levels higher than you, and just likes being a jerk. I think THAT was the point of the OP, something that I have experienced countless times, I could handle someone 1-3 levels higher than me, but when you have a player that decides to go around ganking newbs...... and your toon is that newb it is just not fun.

 

[quantumsoul]

I though pve was always considered wuss mode. Don't get me wrong; I like it too but I find pvp more fun and satisfying when you do well.