When Dragon Age II Fell Apart

[LiquidGrape]

Also there's the addition of the craptastic dialogue wheel, lack of race choice, lack of aesthetic customization in companions, reused areas, those quests where you would find an item and bring it to some random person for some reason, and the goofy departure from the aesthetic of the first game. All of which make the game a huge step backwards from its predecessor.

Let's not forget those problems.

Or the atrocious writing. Seriously, this thing practically needs its own Plinkett review.

Atrocious writing?
Really?
I can understand criticising DAII for its lack of polish, pointless fetch quests, rushed final act and overall lack of gameplay variation, but the writing? With the exception of Meredith and Orsino, both of whom were severely underdeveloped, I think the writing of DAII is fairly excellent. Especially the established interpersonal relationships.

I'd argue that Isabela alone was probably the single best written character of 2011. Of many a year, I'd say. The sheer amount of player prejudice she attracted only to end up subverting (assuming the player wasn't simply a misogynist prick), makes for some of the most substantial characterisation I've ever encountered in a game.
Add to that her grudging rapport with Aveline (another excellent character) growing into a strikingly intimate camraderie of mutual respect, with the same catcalls and insults they had used initially transformed into terms of endearment, and you've got two of the finest female characters in the medium in one of the finest friendships in fiction, full stop.

I'm also of the opinion that Hawke's disempowerment is one of the most interesting things about the game. Marketing utterly failed in doing this aspect justice (but then again, BioWare's marketing department seems to be run by utter berks), and a lot of player expectations were probably crushed for this reason alone. But if one looks beyond the broken promises of that misguided campaign, I think Hawke's story is a strikingly personal one, filled with more heartbreak and failure than the thoroughly uninteresting 'AN HERO' Warden could ever hope to match. Or the Courier in New Vegas or Witcher's Geralt for that matter.
Ultimately, Hawke's (and Kirkwall's) undoing is her inability to juggle the massive responsibilities laid upon her and keeping track of what her companions have wrought. The threat turns out to be something uncomfortably familiar to the player, rather than something thoroughly foreign and external.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to imply DAII was flawless. It clearly isn't. And highlighting what the game failed to do is just as important, if not more so, than to illuminate what it succeeded in doing. But considering the disproportionate amount of criticism the game has received ever since its launch, I tend to be on its defense.

 

[1337mokro]

@1337mokro

Sorry to be that guy but, technically, R&J is not a tragedy, just a tale of woe.

Tragedy requires a "fatal flaw" in the protagonist, that ends up destroying them. MacBeth, King Lear, Hamlet and Othello are tragedies. (Love for his wife, pride, indecision and jealousy, respectively).

Tell that to the libraries who file it under Tragedy.

 

[TheCruxis]

I wholeheartedly (that is a fuckin strange word, is it spelled right?) agree with this article and I've felt from my first playthrough of Dragon Age 2 that it was rushed out (I blame EA, but then again, I always blame EA). Not really sure why an article such as this didn't come earlier, its been more than 10 months since the game was released, but better late than never I suppose.

 

[zinho73]

And that's the best part. No matter whom you side with, you're allying yourself with an evil leader. It's an excellent guage in a game of which is the lesser of two evils. And that decision is why, for all its design flaws, I can't fault Dragon Age 2's story.

This would be great if the writing wasn't so heavy handed.

The mages and Meredith are just too crazy, to the point of being a caricature and that's what hurts the story and quests like the one pointed by the OP.

Orsino transformation in the end is on par with a Scooby-doo ending.

Two evil leaders, tragedy and all this stuff would be great. A rewarding ending doesn't necessarily has to be a happy ending. And I'm not asking too much here - hell, I would be glad if it made sense.

Anders: I blew everything up.
Meredith: And because of that, I will kill all the mages of the circle (which Anders is not part of), because I'm super crazy with this red thing.
Orsino: (A man that were level-minded during the game) AAAHHH, everyhting is lost (when he was winning the fight), I guess I will become a monster - it will surely make everything better.

In the end, the game is above average, with some very good moments and all, but it was obviously rushed and over simplified, throwing out the potential for a really great game.

 

[Gitty101]

I enjoyed the beginning of DA2, it felt like it was really going somewhere. Act 3 was where it fell apart for me and the less said about the ending the better. It just feels like they needed more time...

I'll not totally blank the 3rd if they announce it, I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Darth_Dude]

Aw Crap. I just rented out Dragon Age II, and although I didnt read most of the article for fear of spoilers, I feel like I'd be wasting my time playing it because of all these criticisms...

 

[SpaceMedarotterX]

Aw Crap. I just rented out Dragon Age II, and although I didnt read most of the article for fear of spoilers, I feel like I'd be wasting my time playing it because of all these criticisms...

You're in luck, Shadow Issac over on SA (now on an independant blog) has covered most of Dragon Age II up to the 'Loss.jpg' of Dragon Age II and yes there is something so bad in the game that deserves to be compared to that.

It starts off relatively shitty, but then it gets hilarious.

http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com/2011/11/and-here-my-troubles-began.html

That's right motherbitches, it's Dragon. Age. Mother. Fucking. Two.

The myth. The legend. The game that finally killed off any vestiges of goodwill Bioware had accumulated over my past decade and a half of PC gaming.

The sequel to a game that Bioware spent over half a decade developing, Dragon Age 2 was developed in significantly less time. Like, barely over a year. Not much of that time was spent on pesky timesinks like "designing maps," "designing combat encounters," "balancing the combat," or "creating a remotely coherent storyline", as Bioware focused on what really mattered: writing a harem of psychologically broken dipshits who will gladly fuck you no matter how much they hate you. This last part was something Bioware actually used to publicize the game.

Following release, Bioware decided that anyone who didn't like this obvious masterpiece was a 4chan troll and started banning people en masse from the Bioware forums, and subsequently their EA Accounts. You read that right, criticizing this trainwreck amounted to a lifetime ban from any future EA games. Their solution to remedy this problem was to lock the Dragon Age 2 forum so that anyone without Dragon Age 2 linked to their Bioware social network account was unable to post. That policy persists to this day.

I'm not gonna try to go extensively into metagame knowledge and how shitty this game is compared to Dragon Age: Origins, as that'll just add more time and effort expended on what is probably the worst idea I've had since downing 5 pints of Pabst and 3 shots of Black Velvet then getting behind the wheel of my mom's toyota and driving to my parents' wedding anniversary dinner.

Before we begin this epic voyage through Dragon Age 2, a game where everything's shat up and none of the choices matter, some disclaimers:

I'm not doing any DLC. At all. Don't ask. No Exiled Prince, No Legacy, No Felicia Day's Retard Fuckfest Adventure.
I'm not taking reader input. At all. Much like David Gaider, I'm not going to let an annoying thing like audience input get in the way of the epic story I want to tell.
I'm probably going to put as much effort into writing these posts as Bioware did into making Dragon Age 2.
I hate this game. This LP will reflect that.

If you wish to read it all and don't mind a green background, the DA2 thread is currently located in the Comedy Gas Chamber since the Something Awful moderators had a whiny fit for some reason.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3449674&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I suggest you try reading it from there, since you get all the wonderful little commentary from the SA users and how damn painful it is for them to see a series they genuinely loved back in Origins (There is also an LP of Dragon Age: Origins being done by Corridor on the SA forums. It's got a billion times more effort poured into it, but unfortunately moves very slow.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3426752&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
Page 79 and they still JUST finished up Lothering

In short, Shadow Issacs Dragon Age II LP is low effort, showcases the bad of the game very well however, gets better over time, but the forum posts between each update really sell it.

Meanwhile Corridor put a lot of effort into her Dragon Age: Origins LP, which is more informative, much funnier in my own view and can be seen as a good representation of the Origins experience even if you never played it.

 

[RejjeN]

There were obvious issues with the game that I noticed my first time through, but it wasn't until the second time that I truly noticed hos railroaded it was... Obviously I accepted pretty much every quest I came about the first time since I wanted to experience as much of the game as possible, but the second time I wanted to play the complete OPPOSITE way, but oh what's that? You don't WANT to escort this Qunari mage through the sewers since your character couldn't care less about putting his own neck on the line for it? Well screw you, do it anyway! (I think the worst part is that you CAN say no, but you can't CONTINUE until you say YES -_-)

 

[Darth_Dude]

snip

God damn it, I knew that this game wasnt great when I rented it, what was going through my mind..

Ah well, I've already payed, I might as well see how far I can get before I potentially give up.

...

I've heard the writing is good though...

-sobs in corner-

 

[Mantonio]

You know who's to blame, right?

http://i.imgur.com/WI9SS.jpg

If you want a good fantasy story, you get someone who knows their material. E.G. Anyone but her.

If your writers are slagging off basically a Who's Who of fantasy writing, then say they wants to make it more like Twilight, you get new writers. And comparing Harry Potter to Twilight? Just... no. Harry Potter has its flaws, but at least it's not an abomination in the eyes of God and man.

 

[SpaceMedarotterX]

You know who's to blame, right?

http://i.imgur.com/WI9SS.jpg

(I wish I could remember how to make pictures appear in the forums)

If you want a good fantasy story, you get someone who knows their material. E.G. Anyone but her.

Preword: for the record I have nothing against the GBLT community, I have no problems with the inclusion of GBLT people in games, I think it's great for showing the evolution of the medium, what I do have a problem with is retcons.

HA HA HA.

You know what the stupidest part of that post is? I mean besides the comparison of letting a spirit, that is a being that has no gender, entering Anders body meaning he's gay now (no not Bisexual, Bioware made it very clear that characters were HAWKEsexual, so Anders is completely straight, never having touched a man with the Female Hawkes) The funny thing is the conversation that can be used as evidence? Anders talking about his 'sexual adventures' in Fereldans circle?

He was telling them to OGHREN! Specifically, he and Oghren were ribbing one another! LOOK AT THIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyld0O77uhQ

Oghren: So... mage, huh? What's it like?
Anders: To have all this power at my fingertips?
Oghren: No. To always have to wear a skirt? (Laughs)
Anders: Oh, you don't know the story behind the robes? You know how strict things are in the Circle, right? Of course you do. Well, the robes make quick trysts in the corner easy. No laces or buttons. You're done before the templars catch on.
Oghren: Really?
Anders: Just ask anyone.

This is literally like a fangirl drawing connections between whatever she can see so she can feel better about writing her Yaoi Fanfiction between Loghain and Cailan.

Oh but that's not the worst part of the Hamburgers writing of Anders, you know how in DA2 he's a terrorist who goes "The circle has to die! the chantry has to die, mages must be FREEEEEEEEE!"

Well see in Dragon Age Awakening? you meet a mage like that, and Anders HATES HIM. Anders literally says that while he doesn't agree with the harshness of the circle, it's still the best place for mages to wind up so they can learn to use their power. He's not drawn to some huge crusade, he just wants people who've learned to use their powers to reintegrate with the community. He outright laughs at the idea that mages would be better off without the circle.

This is what I hate, if you can not keep your canon straight, if you really wanted a Hawkesexual, emo mage boy reminiscent of Edward fucking Cullen to act as a terrorist to further prove that nothing you do matters, make a new character. Don't drag both Anders and Justice into the pit of shitty characters.

I mentioned in an earlier post .Hack//G.U. how it was the perfect game for a smaller scale story about the characters rather than the event. One of the characters in the game (the one in the picture reaching for Haseo's hand) is Endrance, HE (yes he is a guy, he is a love interest and you can even marry him at the end games event) is actually a previous character in the .Hack universe.

He was Elk, a mage with a cat-warrior friend who was a companion of the previous games hero with a different personali- wait a minute. Who was I talking about again?

The difference is Elk's transformation into Endrance actually made a whole lot of sense. Elk didn't make friends well, Mia (the Cat-Warrior) was an artificial intelligence, when The World was destroyed, she was killed and it left him all alone. When R:2 booted up, Macha, the remains of Mia, merged with Elk's PC turning him into an Epitaph user (Macha the Temptress). Elk changed his profession from mage to the R:2 equivalent of Mia's class, and he showed affection to a cat.

Now the cat was actually a computer virus given form and- look the .Hack series gets REALLY fucking weird at points, the point is Endrance knows this and DOESN'T CARE, he has been hurt so badly by the loss of friends that he's literally attached to anyone who needs him. Haseo ultimatly snaps Endrance out of his funk (and recruits him into the party) by telling him that he needed his help.

This is what makes Endrance fall for Haseo, it isn't looks, or being a guy or a girl or because he's suddenly a different person than Elk was. He's the same guy, so hurt by events that hurt a lot of people that anyone who shows him love or affection, is someone he latches onto.

It's actually called 'Pansexuality' it doesn't just transcend gender like Bisexuality, it transcends things like species. also the 'Sexuality' in it is really a misnomer, it doesn't literally refer to sexual love, it's more "This transcends gender, species, age, all boundries, I care for you as deeply as any love"

I'm FINE with that, it made sense for Elk to have changed so much after what he had suffered through.

For Anders? it doesn't make any sense that he's not only changed his entire outlook on life, but his philosophical beliefs. I mean Wynne accepts a fade spirit into her body, it doesn't change her at all, it doesn't randomly possess her and make her scream and snarl. The description of what happens to Justice doesn't gel with canon, Anders new personality and sexuality doesn't gel with canon.

It's lazy, completely and utterly lazy "I can't think of a new name and backstory for a character, so lets just ruin Anders"


EDIT:


Listen to Justice here, "Each individual should be judged as a separate person, you should always seek to atone, not wallow in vengeance, you should always seek to forgive others for their crimes, and even if they refuse your forgiveness at least you have tried"

So we have a spirit who isn't "RARGH JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED" and a mage who goes "Well no I don't LIKE how the circles run but it really is the best place for growing mages" and this somehow created "ABLOO BLOO BLOO MAGES ARE SO OPRESSED KILL ALL TEMPLARS, KILL THE CHANTRY!!!!!!"

 

[Zagzag]

Caesar still became the first Emperor of Rome

No actually he didn't... that was his nephew, (who to be fair was also called Caesar, since it was part of the family name.) The Caesar who was assassinated was never emperor.
[/pedantry]
OT: I liked the game. It was nowhere near as good as Origins, but I'd much rather play DAII than many many other games.

 

[sanzo]

Did I think the story was perfect? Not at all. The framing device aspect with Varric could have been used a whole lot better. I didn't think so much time needed to pass between Acts: 12-18 months between Acts 1 and 2 and 6-12 months between Acts 2 and 3 would have been more than enough. Obviously rushing the game took its toll: the Qunari uprising in the climax of Act 2 should have left some permanent mark on the city, even having a few buildings rebuild to look different. Orsino and Meredith should have had some screen time in Act 2, to show them in a slightly more reasonable light in contrast with their zeal in Act 3. This article [http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5131] redeemed a lot of the overall plot for me, however.

That was an interesting read, thank you for linking that article

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to imply DAII was flawless. It clearly isn't. And highlighting what the game failed to do is just as important, if not more so, than to illuminate what it succeeded in doing. But considering the disproportionate amount of criticism the game has received ever since its launch, I tend to be on its defense.

Well, with all the butthurt this game generates, someone has to pass out the aloe vera. (Sweet avatar, btw)

 

[Woodsey]

If the game had depicted that one side was clearly in the right and lorded it over the other faction whether you allied with them or not, that would be problematic storytelling. However, since the leaders of both factions are revealed to be inherently evil at the end, I think it was a refreshing look at the "no way you can come out of this smelling like a rose" ending.

This. I absolutely loved the ending - both sides are rotten, both choices are a compromise, and neither side will let you abstain from choosing.

The last act showed a city spiralling out of control into fanaticism and violence, and how can one person, even a Champion, stop that? Gamers are so used to being the Chosen One who gets to be all-powerful and decide how everything pans out. The real world isn't like that; DA2 chose to show that fantasy worlds don't have to be like that either.

The problem is that they seem to do pretty much the same thing throughout the entire game. Make a few things unchangeable, and you're presenting the limits of a character's influence (Morrigan's twist in Origins is a good example). Do it through most of the game and then do it with the ending as well? Lazy. The Witcher 2 is a fantastic example of a game in which you aren't The Chosen One, but your choices nevertheless have consequences (normally leading to Shit Scenario A or Shit Scenario B). You change the world, but you are not the be all and end all power within the world.

And let's just not start on the hideous, canon-ignoring, sequel-bait of a final cutscene.

(Oh, and Orsino is a fucking idiot, as is virtually every other mage in the entire game. It gets awkward defending mages when they ALL TURN INTO FUCKING BLOOD MAGES. And a rather large issue I had was that the game seemed to randomly ignore the fact that I was a mage too.)

 

[Kahunaburger]

Also there's the addition of the craptastic dialogue wheel, lack of race choice, lack of aesthetic customization in companions, reused areas, those quests where you would find an item and bring it to some random person for some reason, and the goofy departure from the aesthetic of the first game. All of which make the game a huge step backwards from its predecessor.

Let's not forget those problems.

Or the atrocious writing. Seriously, this thing practically needs its own Plinkett review.

I'd argue that Isabela alone was probably the single best written character of 2011. Of many a year, I'd say. The sheer amount of player prejudice she attracted only to end up subverting (assuming the player wasn't simply a misogynist prick), makes for some of the most substantial characterisation I've ever encountered in a game.

I don't really agree with Isabella. She's basically the one-note sexist joke that it's inherently funny when women like having sex. Up to the point where the fact that she enjoy sex is revealed to be the result of (gasp) a traumatic past.

But a pirate who likes sex and loot could have been done very well, in the right hands. The people who think that the line "I like big boats, and I cannot lie" are funny are not the right hands.

Add to that her grudging rapport with Aveline (another excellent character) growing into a strikingly intimate camraderie of mutual respect, with the same catcalls and insults they had used initially transformed into terms of endearment, and you've got two of the finest female characters in the medium in one of the finest friendships in fiction, full stop.

Now Aveline I actually like. Except when she ends up accidentally written as a corrupt cop or winds up in clumsily-written romance subplots because Bioware.

But if one looks beyond the broken promises of that misguided campaign, I think Hawke's story is a strikingly personal one, filled with more heartbreak and failure than the thoroughly uninteresting 'AN HERO' Warden could ever hope to match.

If.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Aw Crap. I just rented out Dragon Age II, and although I didnt read most of the article for fear of spoilers, I feel like I'd be wasting my time playing it because of all these criticisms...

You're in luck, Shadow Issac over on SA (now on an independant blog) has covered most of Dragon Age II up to the 'Loss.jpg' of Dragon Age II and yes there is something so bad in the game that deserves to be compared to that.

It starts off relatively shitty, but then it gets hilarious.

http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com/2011/11/and-here-my-troubles-began.html

That's right motherbitches, it's Dragon. Age. Mother. Fucking. Two.

Shadow Issac thread! You're alive! But I thought you got *sniff* gassed?

I'm gigglesqueeing so hard right now.

 

[Darkmantle]

You know who's to blame, right?

http://i.imgur.com/WI9SS.jpg

If you want a good fantasy story, you get someone who knows their material. E.G. Anyone but her.

If your writers are slagging off basically a Who's Who of fantasy writing, then say they wants to make it more like Twilight, you get new writers. And comparing Harry Potter to Twilight? Just... no. Harry Potter has its flaws, but at least it's not an abomination in the eyes of God and man.

My brain just imploded. No wonder the story sucks! they tried to inject twilight! the only consolation is that the abomination they created suffered a swift death and didn't live on to propagate.

 

[LiquidGrape]

I'd argue that Isabela alone was probably the single best written character of 2011. Of many a year, I'd say. The sheer amount of player prejudice she attracted only to end up subverting (assuming the player wasn't simply a misogynist prick), makes for some of the most substantial characterisation I've ever encountered in a game.

I don't really agree with Isabella. She's basically the one-note sexist joke that it's inherently funny when women like having sex. Up to the point where the fact that she enjoy sex is revealed to be the result of (gasp) a traumatic past.

But a pirate who likes sex and loot could have been done very well, in the right hands. The people who think that the line "I like big boats, and I cannot lie" are funny are not the right hands.

What? It's never implied she likes sex because of a traumatic past. She was simply stuck in an unhappy marriage and wasn't really free to pursue a life of her own until after her husband was murdered. She had always 'owned' her sexuality, so to speak, she was just never allowed to express it.
Which she eventually does.
With her husband's murderer.

Also, for all of Isabela's obvious and enthusiastic debauchery, suggesting that she's a one-note character is quite reductive. It's those precise presumptions I think she so aptly subverts, especially when coupled with Aveline or Merrill; the characters with whom she seems most prone to share her past experiences.

Merrill: You've had many lovers, haven't you?
Isabela: Fewer than some think.
Merrill: But you never stay with them.
Isabela: No, why should I?
Merrill: But the act of lovemaking is so... intimate.
Isabela: I don't "make love." What I do is only skin-deep, Kitten.
Isabela: Don't worry your pretty little head about it.

Merrill: (Sighs) Why do you even like me? I must seem so dull.
Isabela: What brought this on?
Merrill: Your life has been... so exciting. The adventures, the duels, the passionate love affairs.
Merrill: Compared to that, my life is a stale, dry biscuit. (Sighs) I wish I had your life.
Isabela: No. You don't want my life.
Merrill: Why?
Isabela: Because you have a good heart, and you deserve better.

Merrill: Why are you smiling?
Isabela: No reason.
Merrill: Ooh, ooh! It's something dirty, isn't it? Tell me, tell me!
Isabela: It... it isn't anything dirty. I'm just... happy.
Merrill: Oh. That's good, too, but I was hoping for something dirty.
Isabela: Come by the tavern later. I've got stories that will make your toes curl.

Not to mention that she nurtures Aveline's self-esteem and confidence in her own sexuality.

Aveline: How are you so successful with men? You're not that pretty.
Isabela: Cast a wide enough net, and you're bound to catch something.
Aveline: (Laughs) At least you're willing to admit it.
Isabela: Trust me. I've heard, "Get away from me, you pirate hag!" more times than I care to count.
Aveline: Doesn't that bother you?
Isabela: Why should it? They don't know me. I know me.

Aveline: You're right.
Isabela: About?
Aveline: About knowing who you are.
Aveline: I'm the captain of the guard. I'm loyal, strong, and I don't look too bad naked.
Isabela: Exactly. And if I called you a mannish, awkward, ball-crushing do-gooder, you'd say...?
Aveline: Shut up, whore.
Isabela: That's my girl.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is so much heart and wit and, occasionally, implied sadness in her banter with the other companions I could quote it endlessly.
Finally, the scene where she finally admits to having genuinely intimate affection for Hawke is a really tender and well-judged moment, and it feels as if it is just as much an achievement for her as it is for the player.

I suppose one could argue that she's got the traditional 'heart of gold' personality, but when the execution is this fine, I don't have a problem with trope quotas.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

That's actually a fair point. Many of the times I was playing it, I tended to arrive at that point and just want to scream "Wait! I'm helping you!", but since my only options were "kill everyone" or "kill everyone", the narrative does definitely break there. Mages and Templar working together in subversion of both Meredith and Orsino, people who seem to have lost both reason and control, should be a goal many Hawkes would go for. Here's a perfect opportunity to uproot both ineffectual leaders, form a great uprising that supports mage rights while still allowing the Templars to act as guardians, and yet the only option is "kill them all!", rather than try and explain. That's definitely a misstep.

Although, it's all moot anyway. Justice and Anders never met. Anders died when the keep fell, and Justice was left wandering around as a rotting corpse in a bog. Didn't seem to stop them from showing up, so it's not like the collective Dragon Age narrative doesn't have some serious gaps anyway. And, that's not even discussing things like this:

Spoiler: Courtesy Messrs Rydell and Carter

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/8775-Dragon-Age-Destiny

On reflection, maybe Dragon Age isn't the tight narrative we think it is. It just doesn't show until you really examine it. Like finding out your stained glass window, while still pretty, is a sheet of plastic glued to the glass.