When NPC's can play the game better than you.

[Jacco]

Does it annoy you when NPC's, either ally or enemy, can play the game better than you can?

For instance, in Halo Reach the Covenant can jump, dive, dodge, twirl, and aim perfectly no matter what. As a supposedly Spartan super soldier, all you as the PC can do is jump up and down. And occasionally get far enough away from a grenade to not die.

In COD 4, when you're following the dude through the field and no matter what, he can never get shot or spotted but if you fuck up, then the tanks start rolling in.



So, does it annoy you when the game is blatantly in favor of NPC's? What other games suffer from the irritating trend?

 

[Jacco]

Triple post. sorry. it kept telling me it was 404-ing.

 

[veloper]

Oh, you mean a cheating AI?

Think of it this way: the NPCs and AI opponents would be absolutely hopeless if they played by the same rules as the player.
In the case of the Halo, atleast you're fighting aliens so you can simply boil it down to asymmetrical warfare.
For an escort mission: think how often you'd have to restart or reload, if the NPCs did screw up all the time.

Creating a good AI has always proven to be too hard for game companies. That doesn't mean every attempt is acceptable, but we'll have to settle with a simple, scripted AI that will work towards simple goals, receive the necessary (preferably documented) bonusses to make it competitive and hope the difference isn't too glaring.
Some game devs do this better than others and some genres are easier.

A competent aimbot for a FPS is fairly easy to do as precision has little to do with intelligence. You'd probably even want to loosen it up a little. Throw in a solid algorithm for pathfinding and pre-scripted map and you can have a decent illusion (FEAR did this back in 2005 already).

Now a stealthy NPC, that would require spatial awareness in an AI, being aware of your environment and knowing what objects would provide concealment from which direction and couple that with the expected behaviour of the other characters. That's not something I expect to see any time soon.

 

[Alhazred]

The NPC Phantoms one can summon in Dark Souls can usually provide a little assistance in defeating the game's nasty boss battles. There is one exception to this rule.

The boss of Sen's Fortress is a massive iron golem. Its massive axe and heavy armor mean that taking it on head-on is a bad idea (magic is effective, as is hitting it in the heels and knocking it off the fortress). However, there is a Phantom one can bring into the fight by the name of Black Iron Tarkus. Tarkus is a hulking brute decked in heavy armor, and he can fight the golem toe-to-toe, and if his A.I is having a good day, defeat it.

 

[blackrave]

cheating AI is annoying as hell
But on the other hand AI often needs a fighting chance against experienced gamers
So the best devs can do is creating AI that don't cheat that obvious

Oh, you mean a cheating AI?
A competent aimbot for a FPS is fairly easy to do as precision has little to do with intelligence. You'd probably even want to loosen it up a little. Throw in a solid algorithm for pathfinding and pre-scripted map and you can have a decent illusion (FEAR did this back in 2005 already).

Now a stealthy NPC, that would require spatial awareness in an AI, being aware of your environment and knowing what objects would provide concealment from which direction and couple that with the expected behaviour of the other characters. That's not something I expect to see any time soon.

FEAR opponent AI was really good.
It is still one of my favorite games

As for stealthy AI, I remember NCR quest in FO:NV when someone was stealing meds from field hospital
Seeing the thief trying to sneak (in plain sight) was hilarious
(they at least should have give him stealth boy to make him semi-invisible- that would explain why he wasn't seen previously)

 

[Something Amyss]

Maybe the problem you're having is with the limitations of FPS.

I think it'd be boring if all my opponents could do was limited to what my character could do. At least with online play, there's the restriction that everyone else is stuck using the same controls as I am.

Creating a good AI has always proven to be too hard for game companies. That doesn't mean every attempt is acceptable, but we'll have to settle with a simple, scripted AI that will work towards simple goals, receive the necessary (preferably documented) bonusses to make it competitive and hope the difference isn't too glaring.

Most attempts aren't even attempts.

 

[JEBWrench]

Hey, that's every game for me. Doesn't bother me at all. Especially if I have co-op AI buddies.

 

[Squilookle]

Anyone who says good AI can't be done has never played Unreal Tournament.

Bots in that series can shoot, run, jump, make mistakes, and essentially act just like humans do, and depending on the skill level set, can do it better. Hell they'll even taunt enemies and scold teammates for shooting them.

I generally like having hard AI to go up against, because I'll always have a challenge. That's why I still bust out Perfect Dark.

Sometimes you like a game where the enemy is a pushover, just for some fun where you can switch off. Other times though, you want to really get put to the test by a game's AI, and besting superior 'players' in such a situation is always supremely rewarding. Like in Operation Flashpoint, for example.

 

[lRookiel]

The NPC Phantoms one can summon in Dark Souls can usually provide a little assistance in defeating the game's nasty boss battles. There is one exception to this rule.

The boss of Sen's Fortress is a massive iron golem. Its massive axe and heavy armor mean that taking it on head-on is a bad idea (magic is effective, as is hitting it in the heels and knocking it off the fortress). However, there is a Phantom one can bring into the fight by the name of Black Iron Tarkus. Tarkus is a hulking brute decked in heavy armor, and he can fight the golem toe-to-toe, and if his A.I is having a good day, defeat it.

Iron Tarkus is a fucking beast. I have never failed with him on my side

OT: Baldur's gate has random events during travel that pit you against OVERPOWERED enemies, Oh thanks the fucking Half ogre mage that can mind control and blast my entire party to smithereens. -.-

 

[TheSteeleStrap]

My turret in Borderlands 2 is better at the game than I am...

 

[Neonsilver]

I don't have a problem with cheating AI's in general. The purpose of that is usually to improve the chances for them since the noncheating AI is often a lot weaker than a player, or it's used to increase the challenge on higher difficulties.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

Every AI driven vehicle in every racing game ever made is better at the game than me.

 

[shrekfan246]

I'd rather that the player just receive the same freedom of movement that the AI has, to be honest.

There are times when the argument can still make sense within the context of the game; For example, I think it'd be a little odd for "everymen" like Jack from Bioshock, Isaac from Dead Space, or the protagonists of most open-world sandbox games to be rushing around, diving and pirouetting around the battlefield while taking enemies down with pinpoint accuracy.

By the same token, it makes little sense that Master Chief in Halo or Nomad/Prophet/Psycho in Crysis move around like hulking, lumbering beasts with no agility or stamina whatsoever.

As linear as it may be, the freedom of motion in Mirror's Edge is what makes me love the game.

 

[Jacco]

For one moment, using that COD example of the sneaking missions, consider the balls-combusting fury you would feel if you got a game over because the NPC fucked up.

I was thinking more along the lines of when the NPC runs out into a field where he will clearly be seen but because he's an NPC, he isn't. That happened to me once. The scottish guy literally ran out into the open and then behind a car and when I tried to do the same thing a slit second later, I got sniped.

 

[Neonsilver]

I don't have a problem with cheating AI's in general. The purpose of that is usually to improve the chances for them since the noncheating AI is often a lot weaker than a player, or it's used to increase the challenge on higher difficulties.

Only if said AI is badly programmed

I think programming a good AI is quite hard, or it's just cheaper to just develop an AI that doesn't look completely retarded and let it cheat to make up for it.

Honestly I don't care that much about it, as long as the game is still fair. It's more annoying if enemies are somehow unfair.

 

[Neonsilver]

edit: sorry doublepost, no idea how that happened

 

[Rylee Fox]

All AI is unfair. Every single enemy you fight is controlled by the AI. No matter which one kills you, it still wins. Imagine if you could throw an infinite amount of yourself at any enemy in a game like the computer does.

That alone means the AI in a game not being a cheater is completely impossible.