Where's the line between "epic" and "pretentious"?

[Vegosiux]

As asked. I first meant to put this in gaming discussion, but then figured it applies to pretty much all fiction, and even reality, sometimes.

So, when do think things are just too over the top? I must say my tolerance is very, very low...the moment it seems that the piece is trying to draw more attention to "how awesome" it is than to what's actually going on low.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Epic and pretentious are two very different words.

Hell, where's the line between 'platypus' and 'moon-cow'?



Context is required.

For instance, I'd say Metal Gear Rising and Bayonetta are pretty fucking epic, especially the boss battles, but they're so campy that they could never be perceived as moon-cow pretentious

 

[Lilani]

...the moment it seems that the piece is trying to draw more attention to "how awesome" it is than to what's actually going on low.

I think you just sort of encapsulated it, right there. Pretentiousness occurs when a work purports itself or some part of itself as more than it actually is. Rather than simply doing what it sets out to do, it takes a moment to really stop and rub its theme and message and whatever else in your face. If it lives up to that hype then that's one thing--the anime Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is extremely upfront about how masculine and over-the-top it thinks is, but it manages to deliver on all of those promises and more.

On the other hand, I feel like Death Note loses a lot of steam toward the end. I'll put my elaboration on that in spoilers, in case somebody cares.

Spoiler

L was really a good match for Light, and their rivalry really kept the show going and made it feel like not only a battle of wits, but a battle of wills. After L dies and Near takes over, I just can't take Light seriously anymore. He's being foiled by a bratty little kid, which decreases Light's credibility as a mastermind and decrease's L's credibility as the eccentric genius the show spent so long building him up to be. I don't mind that L died, but I do mind that rather than finding another worthy adversary they made an unworthy adversary and made up the difference by making Light more incompetent.

 

[Tom_green_day]

I'd say since Indie games are very popular at the moment, a lot of them are becoming pretentious- as in, the USP is that you're buying them because they are an indie game instead of because they are good.
This definition doesn't even begin to do it justice but I feel pretentious is when something is popular/sold for the image, rather than for the content. Take a film- Life of Pi, last year. Meant to be about a journey of discovery, and watching a film like that would make you seem deep and intellectual. Shame it was a pretty shitty film (In my opinion).
However- If it sells itself for being awesome AND subsequently IS awesome, it isn't pretentious. Like Blackadder, for example.

 

[Darken12]

Epicness is independent of pretentiousness. Whether something is epic or not depends on the viewer.

Pretentiousness is when arrogance meets art. You can have any permutation of epic/non-epic and pretentious/not pretentious.

 

[Requia]

I think pretentious is a poor insult, anything that thinks its better[footnote]In the 'you think you're better than me?' sense[/footnote] than other works is pretentious. The problem is that most pretentious works are actually steaming piles of shit, just like everything else, and it grates more when a steaming pile of shit puts on airs than when say, Marvel Ultimate Alliance is a steaming pile of shit. If it actually delivers on its ego that attitude can be quite a good thing, The Matrix is pretentious as hell but it still works because aside from some executive meddling the Wachowski siblings actually delivered a really thoughtful action movie.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, when it has to tell you it is epic, instead of being epic, that's a good place to start looking.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

...the moment it seems that the piece is trying to draw more attention to "how awesome" it is than to what's actually going on low.

I think you just sort of encapsulated it, right there. Pretentiousness occurs when a work purports itself or some part of itself as more than it actually is. Rather than simply doing what it sets out to do, it takes a moment to really stop and rub its theme and message and whatever else in your face. If it lives up to that hype then that's one thing--the anime Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is extremely upfront about how masculine and over-the-top it thinks is, but it manages to deliver on all of those promises and more.

On the other hand, I feel like Death Note loses a lot of steam toward the end. I'll put my elaboration on that in spoilers, in case somebody cares.

Spoiler

L was really a good match for Light, and their rivalry really kept the show going and made it feel like not only a battle of wits, but a battle of wills. After L dies and Near takes over, I just can't take Light seriously anymore. He's being foiled by a bratty little kid, which decreases Light's credibility as a mastermind and decrease's L's credibility as the eccentric genius the show spent so long building him up to be. I don't mind that L died, but I do mind that rather than finding another worthy adversary they made an unworthy adversary and made up the difference by making Light more incompetent.

That I think is the key difference between Gurren Laggann and NGE. One of them is entirely shameless about how ridiculous it gets, and it doesn't try to strive for a higher meaning. Meanwhile the other one was made by a man going through a psychotic breakdown and trying to cram as much useless imagery into his show as possible in an attempt to look deep and thought provoking.


To put it into a game context, though, I would go with the first bioshock. Now I love the twist in the game, and overall, it is quite subtle with its commentary, until you get smacked in the face with the big reveal. I only have one problem with it though.

Spoiler: Would You Kindly Avoid Reading this if you haven't beaten the game?

Almost immediately after you discover the trigger phrase and how it manipulates you, Fontaine decides to rub it in your face. As a character standpoint, it makes sense for Frank to be such a dick, but the problem I have is that he is speaking on two levels. One is speaking to Jack, while the other is speaking to the player. And the latter just sounds like Irrational Games are bragging and going "oh look how clever we are! Haven't you noticed how smart our commentary is?"

I really didn't like it. I already figured out how impacting the phrase was when Andrew Ryan made me bash his head in with a golf club. I didn't need Fontaine reminding me about it, when all it served was for Irrational to pat themselves on the back and feel all smug and clever.

 

[Gizmo1990]

Where is the line between epic and pretentious?

Bioshock Infinate.

 

[NightmareExpress]

You defeat the final boss and there's a big explosion, a bunch of bad guys die.
OMG, so epic.

You defeat the final boss and there's a big explosion, a bunch of "bad guys" die.
The game then goes on a tangent explaining how morality is not concrete and you've just become the bad guy yourself, or how those that you've killed were the "good guys" all along trying to stop you.
Bah, how pretentious.

"Epic" is a term used to project your feelings of amazement and to describe the game as being absolutely grand, be it for the entirety of a playthrough or a singular instance that may or may not be repeated.

"Pretentious" will be thrown when the game tries to explain itself in a different way. This is a platformer, but it's so deep man. Just look at the little signs that you didn't quite get until we explained it at the end. This isn't your typical "red plumber" game, man...this actually has a message! Alternatively, you could just sum it up as being "head in arse" syndrome.

Like how I'd describe the cinematics and events of Metal Gear Solid as being epic but the story and exposition being overtly pretentious and convoluted. I like the games, but I usually have a laugh at how deep they liken themselves to be. Perhaps that's the point...

 

[Korenith]

I think this thread would be better as what is the difference between "clever" and "pretentious" because to me "epic-ness" (is that a word?) is all about scale and over the top set pieces.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

You seem to have a warped idea of what 'pretentious' means. Something is pretentious when, very simply put, it's full of itself and thinks it's saying far more or far more deeply than it actually is. I think the word your looking for is 'silly' or any derivative of such, when something goes so over the top it stops being engaging and just becomes laughable.

In that case, it depends entirely on context. I think it's silly that in your average Modern Military Shooter, you're usually nothing more than a Tier 1 special forces trooper at best and yet have the magical ability to be shot in the face without dying, and in fact recovering to full operational capacity after a few seconds whimpering behind a wall. With all due respect to the capabilities of actual Tier 1 operatives, I'm pretty sure they can't do this in real life.

However, another FPS like Halo for example, can get away with using the same mechanics without being silly, because it's established that Spartans are near super-human cyborgs who spend all their time fully encased in thick, all-body combat armour with energy shields over the top, as well as all kinds of physical aids implanted underneath. It's all about the context.

 

[klaynexas3]

I think I see why he mixes them together. Most people criticize certain works like Bioshock Infinite or Inception for trying too hard to be cool or "epic" and just becomes pretentious instead. So while working at that angle, I believe the line becomes where people set it. I would set it at the moment the work just start rubbing "how cool they are" in the faces of the audience. Spoiler coming for Bioshock Infinite:

Spoiler

It'd be like if a bunch of Comstocks showed up and started explaining the whole thing to you right before you were drowned. It just tries to take the time to rub it in your face about how amazing this plot twist is and how cool they are for having the plot so complicated. What I liked about the game was how the plot was something you piece together, and you can have most of it put together(besides the paradox of your own daughter drowning you before she is even born) after the game finally ends. It didn't just straight up explain it, it trusted the player to be able to find it all out on his/her own. While I'll admit the game was up its own ass at some points, it's at least classy about it.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

A game that ties itself together without heavy-handed exposition and without requiring heaps of external references from the player has the potential to be epic. BioShock Infinite doesn't require you to be intimately familiar with the Many-Worlds theory in quantum physics, because the story itself is going to serve as a primer on the subject. Furthermore, the concept is used to discuss determinism, choice, faith and politics in ways that don't insult the player's intelligence or assume the player is a retard.

A pretentious game is a game that feels the need to spell everything out not so much because of gameplay contrivances, but because of *narrative* ones. If you get the sense that the game wants you to stop and deeply ponder some sort of existential question in lieu of a serviceable loading screen - looking at'cha, Braid! - then yeah, it's somewhat pretentious.

Actually, I'd say Battleblock Theater runs a fine line between both. It might be petty of me, but I was honestly expecting your standard conflict resolution. If you haven't played BT yet; I won't spoil much if I say that the ending might cause you to alternate between raucous laughter and cries of "GOD, WHY?!"

That's not so much pretension as The Behemoth predictably toying with the player's emotions the same way the theatre's cats do with your friends and Hatty Hattington.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

You say that like epic and pretense are two polar opposites when they have very little to do with each other. They don't contradict each other; things can be epic AND pretentious. 'Epic' refers to scale (disregarding its use as a synonim of cool or amazing), specifically a work of fiction with a large scope of events. 'Pretentious', simply put, is anything that 'pretends'. This is quite redundant, so people use it to refer to things that pretend beyond what they rightfully are and deserve.

 

[FoolKiller]

Epicness is independent of pretentiousness. Whether something is epic or not depends on the viewer.

Pretentiousness is when arrogance meets art. You can have any permutation of epic/non-epic and pretentious/not pretentious.

I do agree that they aren't mutually exclusive. However I think the idea the OP was leaning towards was the fact that you can have pretentiousness where something is trying to be epic and the majority doesn't see it that way.

Harry Potter 7 being broken into two parts: epic
Twilight 4 being broken into two parts: pretentious
Kill Bill 1: epic
Kill Bill 2: pretentious

And yes, some may not agree with me but the point still remains.

 

[In Search of Username]

As asked. I first meant to put this in gaming discussion, but then figured it applies to pretty much all fiction, and even reality, sometimes.

So, when do think things are just too over the top? I must say my tolerance is very, very low...the moment it seems that the piece is trying to draw more attention to "how awesome" it is than to what's actually going on low.

The two aren't really related? 'Philosophical' and 'pretentious', I could see the relation, but 'epic' isn't really something I associate with pretension. Maybe these words mean something else to you.

 

[sextus the crazy]

Epicness is independent of pretentiousness. Whether something is epic or not depends on the viewer.

Pretentiousness is when arrogance meets art. You can have any permutation of epic/non-epic and pretentious/not pretentious.

Pretty much this. Epic and Pretentious don't really have a line between them. They aren't neighbors.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Context makes that distinction. For example, Braid and Fez. Both games on their own can be described as "epic". But the attitudes of their creators can throw their perception into the pretentious realm. Jonothan Blow is a stark example of that. Jonothan Blow achieved something grand when he, by himself, released Braid on the XBLA and sold tons. Then he wouldn't shut up about it. Then he would go on to criticize many aspects of the more mainstream industry in a pompous manner while having one release under his belt for years. Some of it was warranted, some of it just sounded like whining for the sake of having an opinion heard.

Phil Fish's attitude got him laughed at when it was announced to come to Steam. He vehemently stated that Fez was made for console and that it would never seen the light of day on the PC. Then a year after its XBLA release it gets announced for Steam. People on Reddit brought up his previous comments and he himself actually responded as saying that he was releasing Fez on the PC for the money. Some bad foot in mouth there.

I think that something becomes pretentious when its creators or the mood of the creation demands you to view it as "a work of art". It also depends on how serious the creator/creation takes itself when it comes to forcing the opinion of "epic" as fact.

 

[uzo]

Epic = Paradox Interactive
Pretentious = EA Games





(my comment = Equally pretentious)