Oh, nifty! A catch-22!geK0 said:
On topic: I like being stuck up for! I suck at fighting my own battles.
White Knights, the true enemies of sexual equality.
- Thread starter Montezuma's Lawyer
- Start date
On topic: I like being stuck up for! I suck at fighting my own battles.
I agree with the OP in half. The other half i have to say genuinely nice guys exist (Or nice lasses) that will call anyone up on their BS no matter who it's directed at. But this is the internet and the White Knights exist in their abundance. Of course the only people who don't know this are the white knights themselves who think themselves clever and not obviously teenage lechers.
I think people defending other people is always a good thing, unless the people they're defending are actually in the wrong and deserve the thrashing they're getting.
Sure, if they've got a notion that women owe them sexual favours or whatever for this defense, that's pretty douchey, but that's more their problem since they're just going to be continually disappointed that way.
Sure, if they've got a notion that women owe them sexual favours or whatever for this defense, that's pretty douchey, but that's more their problem since they're just going to be continually disappointed that way.
I agree with some, but I disagree with some of what the OP said as well... My only view of a White Knight (In otherwords, someone who displays Chauvinistic characteristics) is someone who views a woman as an inherently weak and feeble creature that cannot defend herself and needs a "Man" to defend her. I believe the major issue behind this is the fact that it reinforces the old time belief that women are naturally inferior and therefore must be subservient to man. Woman is a slave, a baby-maker, a house-wife, but she cannot take positions of power or authority. I find that to be the true worst qualities of a White Knight (Not that all display such traits to such extremes, I'm more describing the epitome or the most extreme of White Knights).
A woman can defend herself if she is able, but it doesn't mean that they can always do things on their own, just the same of a man in trouble or a child. Helping someone who is in trouble, regardless of gender isn't bad. If you help out a woman, you're not a bad person who is treating her as an inferior being, unless you end up doing it even when she is able to do it on her own just because you feel she cannot do it on her own. I guess it is more the reason behind the deed more than the deed itself.
A woman can defend herself if she is able, but it doesn't mean that they can always do things on their own, just the same of a man in trouble or a child. Helping someone who is in trouble, regardless of gender isn't bad. If you help out a woman, you're not a bad person who is treating her as an inferior being, unless you end up doing it even when she is able to do it on her own just because you feel she cannot do it on her own. I guess it is more the reason behind the deed more than the deed itself.
Kinda seemed logical.DarkRyter said:
OT: I'm a bit of a white knight, but it's not because I think women are better than men. It's because, generally, men are hardwired to care about women in danger more then men in danger. Sexist? Probably. But it's what is, for the most part. It's why the rallying cry of "women and children first" in various disasters throughout history became a thing.
And don't bother belching "I don't feel this way! Your argument is invalid!" I've seen enough behavior in history and day-to-day life to detect the phenomenon, and you possibly not being the same (assuming you're not lying on the internet to make a point) doesn't invalidate the idea for humans in general.
At any rate, if I'm going to jump to someone's defense, it'll be because they're being attacked by multiple people, I feel strongly about the subject, or because I'm in a bad mood, not because it's a girl that I'm contractually obligated to bail out of internet arguments.
...?manic_depressive13 said:
WHY? there is no reason for that
for example...ok, I can understnad getting annoyed with somone with the user name "gamer_chic" and being all "IM A GURL AND I PLAY GAMEZ!!!"
but this? this is just trolling, this is just being fucking awful for no godamn reason other than "its the internetz duuuhhh"
and no the "point" of playing online is to play the fucking game (thats how you destroy your opponents) ...not act like a twat
I agree and disagree, sort of. I don't think that helping someone is dehumanizing. I do agree that treating someone as a helpless damsel in destress is as bad as the perpetrators, but chivalry is not nessasarly a bad thing. Treat prople as fucking people, be polite but not patronizing. It is very possible to be nice and helpful and even to jump to someones defense without patronizing that person. It is possible to just be nice.
Presumably you have played an online game and seen how people behave. You can adopt that behaviour or you can suffer it. I found that if I stop taking it seriously and accept it for the epic trolling that it is, and even join in, I can have a lot more fun. More fun than I can have by sticking my nose up at it and being content in my percieved maturity and superiority.Vault101 said:
I was quite horrified and disgusted by it when I first stepped into the world of online gaming, but I've grown quite fond of the anarchistic shitfest it breeds due to its lack of moderation. I'd be rather upset if it was taken away from me. What you have to realise is that these people rarely mean what they say. From my experience they're not actually bigotted- they just want to make you cry. Is that really so wrong?
I don't see anything wrong with White Knights. Being kind to someone for any reason is a good thing. I certainly don't think apathy or indifference is something anyone wants.
As for chivalry being dead... well, I have yet to see someone scowl at me for keeping a door open, or for offering to help carry a push chair up stairs. So in light of my anecdotal evidence, I'm going to say the OP is incorrect, or not in possession of all the facts.
As for chivalry being dead... well, I have yet to see someone scowl at me for keeping a door open, or for offering to help carry a push chair up stairs. So in light of my anecdotal evidence, I'm going to say the OP is incorrect, or not in possession of all the facts.
If someone is actually sexist, wouldn't they be more inclined to listen to a man rather than a woman, ignoring the woman's counter-arguments?
Also: i don't care WHY your being nice, the fact your being nice is fine.
If you are nice in order to feel some sense of self gratification, that is fine.
Also: i don't care WHY your being nice, the fact your being nice is fine.
If you are nice in order to feel some sense of self gratification, that is fine.
It's quite arrogant to say that just because you leap to a womans defense you're a bad person? Probably been mentioned, but I'd leap to the aid of a woman in distress any day, whether she's being mugged, raped or beaten. Same thing applies on the internet to a certain degree.
Regularly, not always though, men have more power on the internet and has a better chance of making a difference.
A man who's being abusive towards a woman isn't going to stop because the woman tells him to stop, she's in essence defenseless against the disgusting behaviour of sexist pigs on the internet, with the exception of just ignoring the guy.
And I have no idea of where you're getting your facts, but these "nice guys" that you mention, which I am a part of, don't just leap to the aid of women, but people of either gender and any age.
Why? There's power in numbers. I was bullied in school for years, think anyone ever helped me or even cared? Nope. Would I like someone to care? Yes.
So I'm the kind of guy who immediately reacts to someone else being abusive to another person, because it's immoral and stupid.
Even if you can't get him to stop, you can get the abused person to know that he or she is not alone, and that there are good, decent people around.
And yes, I've become attracted to women I've defended in such situations, but generally I don't. I am in fact a nice guy, so I will be nice regardless of gender and possibility of sexual conquest.
So what you're doing is generalizing a large portion of mankind based on what I would believe is your own perception of your own personality.
I'm fairly certain that you're either of two possible choices. An abusive sexist man who hates guys who defend women, or a guy who defends women but never gets laid because of it.
Perhaps I sound cruel when I say I believe that, but why else would anyone in their right mind believe that all men who aid others are sexist ponces?
It makes no sense.
Should we start calling administrators on forums and gameservers sexist geezes because they punish the wicked? Where does it end? At what point does it become okay to care for other human beings?
Regularly, not always though, men have more power on the internet and has a better chance of making a difference.
A man who's being abusive towards a woman isn't going to stop because the woman tells him to stop, she's in essence defenseless against the disgusting behaviour of sexist pigs on the internet, with the exception of just ignoring the guy.
And I have no idea of where you're getting your facts, but these "nice guys" that you mention, which I am a part of, don't just leap to the aid of women, but people of either gender and any age.
Why? There's power in numbers. I was bullied in school for years, think anyone ever helped me or even cared? Nope. Would I like someone to care? Yes.
So I'm the kind of guy who immediately reacts to someone else being abusive to another person, because it's immoral and stupid.
Even if you can't get him to stop, you can get the abused person to know that he or she is not alone, and that there are good, decent people around.
And yes, I've become attracted to women I've defended in such situations, but generally I don't. I am in fact a nice guy, so I will be nice regardless of gender and possibility of sexual conquest.
So what you're doing is generalizing a large portion of mankind based on what I would believe is your own perception of your own personality.
I'm fairly certain that you're either of two possible choices. An abusive sexist man who hates guys who defend women, or a guy who defends women but never gets laid because of it.
Perhaps I sound cruel when I say I believe that, but why else would anyone in their right mind believe that all men who aid others are sexist ponces?
It makes no sense.
Should we start calling administrators on forums and gameservers sexist geezes because they punish the wicked? Where does it end? At what point does it become okay to care for other human beings?
You know what's funny? The general idea of the OP's post is that if you help women to appear less sexist, you are more sexist.Tenno said:
How about the guy who calls the white knight sexist? Why is he posting that instead of letting women defend themselves? His entire post backfires on him because he is the exact same kind of person he's accusing others of being.
To put it simple: To not be sexist you need to be quiet and say nothing.
Sorry, but any time I hear this, I see someone trying to get acceptance for their belief, not meaningful discussion on a topic. By posting those two sentences, you just made it so that anyone who disagrees with your opinion can no longer voice theirs.Montezuma said:
Personally, I disagree. I notice that the only women who tend to be harassed are those that put themselves in a position to do so. There are many women (even most on this site), that aren't treated like crap. The girls in my WoW guild were sure as hell not treated like crap, there are many forums out there aside from this one that have very nice communities, unfortunately, people only remember the bad when it comes to this subject.
OT: Yes, white knighting isn't getting us anywhere as a culture, but I still see it as better than the alternative. Oftentimes a white knight is the closest thing to a decent community member that some sites have. Personally, I'd rather see some members of the community getting help from each other, no matter the why, than everybody being jerks to everybody. If you want a white knight to stop helping you, tell them that. If you want to be able to defend yourself, voice that opinion. You claim that they take away your right to self defense, when, in reality, you give that to them when you let them defend you. Nobody can take that right away from you.
"More fun than I can have by sticking my nose up at it and being content in my percieved maturity and superiority."manic_depressive13 said:
I dont liek the implication there...thats not how I feel at all, and I dont think its right to bag peopel for wanting to be civil
oh SURE I can find it amusing enough, but I still dont agree and most of time I woulnt be a dick like that...(unless I did it unintentionally by getting really annoyed and fighting back with all the venom I could muster...you knwo fi my patience was pushed enough)
but again, I wont intentionally adopt that behaviour, I'll just use mute if it bothers me that much, and respond by playing the game and winning
I refuse it, because it's only part of whole statement.Montezuma said:
On the Internet everybody is treated like a shit. There are a few places with high standards, but man, it's easier to find decent vampire...
...and to be honest, it's good. Like one wise man said once, Internet is a playground. Nothing more. It shopuldn't be taken seriously. It can't be. Every attempt to make it a more civilized place is simply atrocity in my eyes. It should forever stay wild, untamed, Humanity's last bastion of freedom.
That's my 5 cents.
Maybe that's what they're doing (leaping to the defense of a person not a woman)? Maybe YOU'RE the sexist for assuming they're doing it because it's a woman? I kid of course but sexism, like racism, is complicated. It doesn't matter if you do something or don't do something it's considered racism/sexism/ect in somebodies mind so you just can't win. So just don't worry about it and do what you feel is right.