Who now thinks that the first matrix movie should've been a stand alone?

[JUMBO PALACE]

Well while I definitely agree with the consensus that the two sequels weren't nearly as good as the first movie, I don't think it erases how good the first movie was. I see a lot of people who say that the sins of a sequel can ruin a whole franchise but that fist movie is still there just as good as it's always been. We don't say that Terminator 1 and 2 were ruined because the later movies were shit.

 

[stroopwafel]

We don't say that Terminator 1 and 2 were ruined because the later movies were shit.

That is actually the main reason why I haven't watched The Matrix sequels. While it's true what you say that sequels don't diminish the quality of the original atleast with The Terminator it's hard for me to totally separate it from how unbelievably fucking stupid the lore/mythos have become after all the franchise milking. I espescially hate retro-active explanations. So with The Matrix I was like, nope, not again. Alien same thing. Though these were atleast somewhat entertaining.

 

[happyninja42]

I haven't watched 2 & 3 since seeing them in the theater, and I didn't like them then. Not sure how I would feel about them now, as I've had enough time and distance to have a fresh perspective on them.

I will say that I enjoyed elements of both 2&3, but overall they were frustrating.

I don't really have thoughts on a remake/reboot either way. If it's done well, I don't really mind. If it's done poorly, then I don't like it, but that's hardly a unique opinion for shit reboots.

 

[MonsterCrit]

It was more or less done as one. Check the story.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I thought that was the general consensus among most fans.

 

[Callate]

Yeah, it kind of disappeared up its own ass, so to speak. So caught up in its own "depth" and awesomeness that it forgot about the already-stretched practical realities and the point.

It's sort of admirable, in as much as it does its own thing without much regard for audience sensibilities and expectations. But the Wachowskis would go on to demonstrate, writ large, that there's only so much faffing about that you can do without some sort of grounding before your audience stops putting up with your artistic pretensions. (Speed Racer, Jupiter Ascending, et. al... Though I do admire Cloud Atlas, for all its failure to pick up commercially.)

 

[Scarim Coral]

While I don't want another film to be made but I can kinda get with the reboot/ sequel.

Don't forget that the Matrix world is simply an update/ different version of the world.

 

[Hawki]

Uh, no they don't. The most that is said about actually going to Zion is Tank telling Neo that if he lives long enough he might even see it. Indicating this isn't a place they go to willy nilly.

I got the sense that Tank was joking. A joke that's rooted in truth (this is a dangerous job), but joking nonetheless. Even in the first movie, it was implied that the sentinels at least could get to Zion pretty quickly (that they'd strike as soon as they got the codes from Morpheus), so even if sentinels are faster than hovercraft, surely a hovercraft could get there in a somewhat reasonable timeframe.

And if they were on their way to Zion, you don't think Cypher would've been able to stick it out for a few more days?

Stick it out, then either go back on the Neb, or stay in Zion. Both options apparently suck.

Seeing as it's large and open, has a huge, roomy dockingbay, loads of properly furnished houses, more than enough space to cultivate fruits and vegatables, and a giant conference hall, I'd say it's not too much worse than a modern city, except that it's underground. It creates an image that humanity is thriving, as opposed to the first movie that shows us how weak and powerless humans are in the machine world.

-It isn't that large and open. I mean, the actual surrounding structure is, but the walkways are shown to be pretty crowded.

-I don't remember any of the houses having actual furnishings. They struck me as being little better than the ship quarters.

-I don't remember seeing any fruits/vegetables. I do remember bread, but as the comics establish, that's in short supply. Also, I think the second film does establish that the food is recycled, so, yay, more gruel.

-Giant conference hall that's a giant cavern.

Like I said, Zion, regardless of movie, has always struck me as a pretty crummy place to live. Even if we confine this entirely to the first film, I don't think anything can really be said about Zion, except:

-Humans can still be born naturally, and they have the means/tech to create/maintain hovercraft.

-Said hovercraft have EMP technology, and the crew have lightning guns that we can presume are used on Sentinels (we never see them be used on Sentinels, but it stands to reason that's what they're actually there for)

-The ships serve synthetic gruel, and Cipher may treat you to some moonshine.

All this strikes me as a society that, while crummy to live in, does still have more advanced tech than ours. What I see in the next two films reaffirms that belief.

Well while I definitely agree with the consensus that the two sequels weren't nearly as good as the first movie, I don't think it erases how good the first movie was. I see a lot of people who say that the sins of a sequel can ruin a whole franchise but that fist movie is still there just as good as it's always been. We don't say that Terminator 1 and 2 were ruined because the later movies were shit.

I actually like T4/T5, but T3 is an example of how a sequel can ruin its predecessors (for me at least), considering that its basic premise is that Judgement Day was always inevitable, and pretty much the entirety of T2 was pointless. That, and T3 is harping off even the basic cinematography of T2, and doing a less good job of it. T4/T5 are nowhere near as good as the first two films, but they at least either do their own thing (T4) or put in the legwork for their take on the timeline (T5).

 

[Casual Shinji]

Uh, no they don't. The most that is said about actually going to Zion is Tank telling Neo that if he lives long enough he might even see it. Indicating this isn't a place they go to willy nilly.

I got the sense that Tank was joking. A joke that's rooted in truth (this is a dangerous job), but joking nonetheless. Even in the first movie, it was implied that the sentinels at least could get to Zion pretty quickly (that they'd strike as soon as they got the codes from Morpheus), so even if sentinels are faster than hovercraft, surely a hovercraft could get there in a somewhat reasonable timeframe.

When they talk about the machines getting into Zion's mainframe, they don't mean physically. With the codes they could simply access the entire network and shut the place down from probably any point on the planet. And I think it goes without saying that the machines are pretty much everywhere -- They don't have to get to it quickly, they could just dispatch whatever units are closest.

And if they were on their way to Zion, you don't think Cypher would've been able to stick it out for a few more days?

Stick it out, then either go back on the Neb, or stay in Zion. Both options apparently suck.

Not according to the sequels it doesn't. Remember that first time we see Zion in Reloaded and everyone there is getting by totally fine. They even have a pristine white traffic control center with courtious and neatly dressed personnel.

Seeing as it's large and open, has a huge, roomy dockingbay, loads of properly furnished houses, more than enough space to cultivate fruits and vegatables, and a giant conference hall, I'd say it's not too much worse than a modern city, except that it's underground. It creates an image that humanity is thriving, as opposed to the first movie that shows us how weak and powerless humans are in the machine world.

-It isn't that large and open. I mean, the actual surrounding structure is, but the walkways are shown to be pretty crowded.

-I don't remember any of the houses having actual furnishings. They struck me as being little better than the ship quarters.

-I don't remember seeing any fruits/vegetables. I do remember bread, but as the comics establish, that's in short supply. Also, I think the second film does establish that the food is recycled, so, yay, more gruel.

-Giant conference hall that's a giant cavern.

There's that scene where we see what must be a hundred people displaying baskets loaded with food as an offering to Neo, food that doesn't appear gruel-like.

And I'm not talking about the giant cavern, though there's that too, I mean what substitutes as a city hall with council members and everything. Council members that go around dressed in elaborate costumes. Another example of a society that's well off enough that it can afford to indulge in such luxeries.

Added to that the giant-ass army of mechs sporting big fucking machine guns, eventhough the first movie clearly states that EMP is the only weapon they have against the machines. Then suddenly in the sequels every ship is decked out with guns.

 

[viranimus]

Psst.. hate to break it to you but the original was a horrible imitation of something. (Though I adore the first film despite it spit in the face of its own genesis.)

Dark City?

No, but a case could be made for that, I guess.

No, I mean the matrix document, which might now be lost to the murky waters of the deep web for all I know.

 

[Hawki]

When they talk about the machines getting into Zion's mainframe, they don't mean physically. With the codes they could simply access the entire network and shut the place down from probably any point on the planet. And I think it goes without saying that the machines are pretty much everywhere -- They don't have to get to it quickly, they could just dispatch whatever units are closest.

What, there's armies of Sentinels just roving around? We see them operating in small groups at most in the first film. Even if the mainframe is infiltrated, if a society has the means to build/maintain hovercraft and lightning guns, you're going to need more than just a few squiddies.

Not according to the sequels it doesn't. Remember that first time we see Zion in Reloaded and everyone there is getting by totally fine. They even have a pristine white traffic control center with courtious and neatly dressed personnel.

The traffic control center is VR, remember - you see the red pills in the seats in the physical control center, and are in the white landscape in VR. Also, "neatly dressed?" Well, yeah, sort of, but the uniforms of Zion's military are very slimshod, just wool without any insignias or displays of rank. Indications are that they're making do with what they have.

There's that scene where we see what must be a hundred people displaying baskets loaded with food as an offering to Neo, food that doesn't appear gruel-like.

And I'm not talking about the giant cavern, though there's that too, I mean what substitutes as a city hall with council members and everything. Council members that go around dressed in elaborate costumes. Another example of a society that's well off enough that it can afford to indulge in such luxeries.

Added to that the giant-ass army of mechs sporting big fucking machine guns, eventhough the first movie clearly states that EMP is the only weapon they have against the machines. Then suddenly in the sequels every ship is decked out with guns.

I vaguely remember the point where Neo is offered gifts (you mean after the elevator?), but even so, it does show that the people don't seem to be living that well, given their rags, and that food of all things is being used as offerrings. As for the council, yes, their dress is elaborate by the standards of Zion, but still relatively slimshod compared to what we even have today. They're luxuries by the standards of Zion, not by our own. Even the mechs (of which there's about 100 - that's not really a "giant arse army") are more ramshackle versions of what the UN forces tried using against the machines in the Animatrix. So, on one hand, Zion isn't hell on earth, but even so, it's always struck me as a downgrade from the ammenities of the Matrix itself.

As for the EMP, that's kind of a plothole, but it's a plothole that exists within the first movie itself. It's stated that the EMP is "the only weapon we have against the machines." Being creative, you could say that this applies only to the Neb, not "we" as in humanity as a whole, but even then, we're supposed to believe that only EMPs are good against Sentinels? Rockets, bullets, the lightning guns...all useless?

So, on one hand, come the sequels, we do see that Sentinels can be taken out through more conventional means, but honestly, I'm fine with that. It doesn't downgrade the threat of the Sentinels themselves per se - Revolutions does show how unstoppable they can be.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

I didn't come here for the argument. My opinion on the films themelves begins and ends with "I liked the Matrix movies". That's it, and that's all that's needed. I think it's too soon for a reboot is all.

 

[dscross]

It was more or less done as one. Check the story.

Eh? What do you mean? The point is that the sequels shouldn't have been made for exactly that reason.

 

[Remus]

Snip

I didn't come here for the argument. My opinion on the films themelves begins and ends with "I liked the Matrix movies". That's it, and that's all that's needed. I think it's too soon for a reboot is all.

Don't try so hard to be insulted. I wasn't starting an argument. I was simply pointing out the circumstances surrounding the creative process that resulted in the Matrix films, a thing that might not necessarily be true with a reboot. This could result in a shallow imitation, much like the recent Nightmare and Friday the 13th remakes. For some people, whether or not a reboot is warranted might depend on this knowledge of what came before and how.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

I didn't come here for the argument. My opinion on the films themelves begins and ends with "I liked the Matrix movies". That's it, and that's all that's needed. I think it's too soon for a reboot is all.

Don't try so hard to be insulted. I wasn't starting an argument. I was simply pointing out the circumstances surrounding the creative process that resulted in the Matrix films, a thing that might not necessarily be true with a reboot. This could result in a shallow imitation, much like the recent Nightmare and Friday the 13th remakes. For some people, whether or not a reboot is warranted might depend on this knowledge of what came before and how.

No insult taken. I DO understand your point, though.

 

[Kyrian007]

WB is rebooting the Matrix because after enjoying tentpole franchises LotR and Harry Potter making huge cash all at once... now they are really bereft of huge franchises. They are throwing everything they have at the wall to try and make something stick. They are rebooting POLICE ACADEMY... that freaking reeks of desperation.

I could swear we've had this conversation before, but Fantastic Beasts grossed highly (not as high as HP, but the franchise itself is still going), and the DCEU has brought in the dough, regardless of critical reception.

We did have a very civil discussion on the subject. I maintain however that Fantastic Beasts based on the reaction from HP fans and the critics (that I saw) doesn't have "tentpole franchise" legs. Same with DC, although WW wasn't nearly the disaster that SS and the Superman movies were. But even though they make some cash its nothing like the critica and commercial success of the MCU or Star Wars which is what WB (and all other studios) want... ALL the money. Again, Police Academy... there were already what, 6 of those things. Rebooting seems, pretty desperate.

 

[MonsterCrit]

It was more or less done as one. Check the story.

Eh? What do you mean? The point is that the sequels shouldn't have been made for exactly that reason.

What I mean is, that like many trilogies in movies, this was not made with the idea of a trilogy. It was always sort of a thing in action movies to leave a sequel hook so that if the film did well it could be made. Sometimes it did and the sequel was usually horrendous.

Star Wars for example was never intended as a trilogy. In fact Lucas was so sure the sequel was going to be terrible that he made a point of having as little to do with the film as possible. Including the writing and directing. (and coincidentally it is lauded as the best of the star wars films). Same thing with the matrix.

 

[CaitSeith]

Meh! The sequels didn't hurt the first movie in anyway, so I don't mind them.

 

[sXeth]

The thing with the second and third movies was they seemed like someone filling in a fanwiki with info. Most of which was presented in exposition dumps rather then organically. Similar to the narration in Dark City that wrecks that movie's atmosphere (if you don't know to skip over it at the start), except dragged over two sequels.

That and some general bad writing habits. Getting stuck on popular characters like Smith, and to an extent Morpheus. Dragging them on past their actual story arcs. Illogical power creep and upscaling (regular people can suddenly fight Agents, Agents upgraded to fight Neo, at that).