Why Am I A Bad Person For Like Large Breasts And Sexy Nuns?

[The Material Sheep]

I don't think the discussion is about whether or not he should be offended or take criticisms seriously. It's whether or not it's wrong to like large breasts in video games. Otherwise I'd agree with you on the matter that it's not reasonable to get upset over things said over the internet.

Also to your last point, I think that's fairly obvious. The criticisms of outsiders who are seen as ignorant of the culture in question, are not going to be received as well as those within the culture who are seen as knowledgeable. Anita Sarkesian (just an example) is not really known for a methodical and fair look at the things she does videos on. To many, it's a ,who the fuck is this lady to criticize what I put so much time and energy into, kinda thing. It's not a -reasonable- response, but it's very understandable, and not exclusive to the video game community.

 

[Seydaman]

The works alone are not the issue, rather the over-prevalence of the same thing. There isn't anything inherently terrible about large breasts or art targeted to heterosexual men/homosexual women, but it becomes an issue when it is the only thing in the medium. It's like if every movie you saw was about an angst ridden teenager being angry about stuff and then getting superpowers or whatever, people would eventually get irritated by the lack of variation.

 

[Mersadeon]

Eh. I think we have about 10 threads about this already. But still, I'll state my opinion.

Aren't the Escapists the guys who think that videogames are art? Well, they are. And you know what? You don't have to like art for it to be art. It can be offensive, disgusting, horrible art, but it is still art and you have NO right to make the artist apologise unless he forced his art on you (by spraypainting it onto your wall or sneaking it unto your computer or something). I don't find the aesthetics of Dragons Crown pleasing, but then again, I don't have nostalgia for that kind of game so I just don't find it interesting at all. But when people start shouting "this is filth", I like to remind them kindly that art is subjective. We might not like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have the same rights as every other piece of art. So yes, you can state your opinion as often as you would like, but that doesn't make you any more right, nor does it make Dragon's Crown objectively bad or takes away its "art-card".

It think the problem that people have isn't really about Dragon's Crown anyway. It isn't about any one particular game and its style. There is room for games where women aren't fleshed-out characters. It's more that there aren't enough games where that isn't the case. But can we blame a single piece of art for it's medium? Can we single out an hentai video and get angry at it for all its stupidity? No. Because the work of art itself is fine. It's the overall trend of the medium we don't like. So please, stop clawing at Dragon's Crown.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Dragon's Crown character design have nothing to do with gaming, and more to do with warped sides of japanese culture. Some japanese gamers love the blatant fan service that can supposedly be laughed off in Japan, where women are treated like second class citizens for the most part. The very fact no females in Japan has complained says enough. The game is pandering by design in an unprofessional way and that's not good. Guess japan doesn't want to cherish its female gamers or lack their of.

Its okay for you like all the things you like, Silver.

George's work is weird and beautiful. Had it pandered less without the over exaggerated characters, it would have still been an awesome game and that's all we'd have to say. Recently arcade classic Dungeons and Dragons came out from Capcom and awesome it was. Its character art still looked cool while not having to resort to this pandering boob crap.

Vanillaware, you are a talented bunch. Next time, be mindful of other nations gamers playing you game, where female gamers enjoy games too and don't need bad representations of their gender.

This kind of silly fan service is what stops anime like Highschool of the Dead from being good, showing its really a Japan problem that many of us don't need, to then later have it divide us. They can't help but pander than just tell a good story.

 

[teisjm]

Am i the only one, who finds it riducouus, when people talk about objectifying characters as solely sex objects, when said characters are immensely powerfull in some way or another?

I haven't played Dragons crown, but i assume the sorceress, as well as all the other characters, are portraited as powerfull, dungeon-sweepers, capable of pwning everything in the game.
Same goes for every game.
Unless you can find a game, where the TnA-lady character is underpowered.

I could hypothethise about all these white knights of the internet, having issues with beeing able to see a woman as beeing powerfull, if she has big tits or something like that.
But i guess i'll stay out of the amateur pop-psychology department.
Sometimes when i read threads like this one, i just can't help but wonder if a lot people see TnA, and power/personallity/other values as mutially exclusive. (yes i see power as a replacement for personallity when talking about a dungeon-crawler character, cause they're rearely personalized much beyond "will clean dungeons for loot"

 

[crazygameguy4ever]

There's nothing wrong with liking certain things, in this case you liking girls with large breasts. everyone has there own thing their attracted to. Personally i'm not really a breast kind of guy, i like girls to have a cup size that's on the small end like A cup... i focus on the girl/women's face not her chest anyways though. Also wearing as little clothing as possible in't as sexy to me as a girl with some clothing on.. leaves more to the imagination rather then spoiling it by flaunting everything she has to everyone. The problem with e dragon's crown game isn't that they decide to have "sexy" girls it's how they did their body shape. impossible tiny waists, with enormous breasts that make them look top heavy isn't sexy it's bizarre and unnatural. doesn't help that they make the breasts jiggle around unnaturally like their bras are filled with jello or something. games like Dead or Alive are also guilty of the over jiggle thing too and it should stop. Breasts move around but not that much. and i heard the upcoming Final Fantasy Lightening returns main character also has jiggling breasts too.. way to go Japan._. we need more realistically proportioned women in games without the stupid pencil thin waists and enormous breasts that jiggle all over unnaturally like..

 

[generals3]

There's nothing wrong with liking certain things, in this case you liking girls with large breasts. everyone has there own thing their attracted to. Personally i'm not really a breast kind of guy, i like girls to have a cup size that's on the small end like A cup... i focus on the girl/women's face not her chest anyways though. Also wearing as little clothing as possible in't as sexy to me as a girl with some clothing on.. leaves more to the imagination rather then spoiling it by flaunting everything she has to everyone. The problem with e dragon's crown game isn't that they decide to have "sexy" girls it's how they did their body shape. impossible tiny waists, with enormous breasts that make them look top heavy isn't sexy it's bizarre and unnatural. doesn't help that they make the breasts jiggle around unnaturally like their bras are filled with jello or something. games like Dead or Alive are also guilty of the over jiggle thing too and it should stop. Breasts move around but not that much. and i heard the upcoming Final Fantasy Lightening returns main character also has jiggling breasts too.. way to go Japan._. we need more realistically proportioned women in games without the stupid pencil thin waists and enormous breasts that jiggle all over unnaturally like..

Since when is realism a valid argument to why games "should" do anything? Look, not liking said art style is fine and dandy but realism is hardly a valid excuse, in VG's of all places, why it "shouldn't" exist.

Should magic in VG's stop? Should respawning in VG's stop?

 

[Yuuki]

I suspect based on my experience with Japanese people, is that when most Japanese women see the character designs in Dragon's Crown they quickly relegate it into the category of fan-service games that are only enjoyed by adolescents or by creepy otaku shut-ins.

Boy have I got news for you, games & media with fanservice (catering to both male and female) are enjoyed by FAR more people than just "adolescents or creepy otaku shut-ins" in Japan. I mean the every fact you automatically placed fanservice in negative light by saying only creeps/shut-ins can enjoy it, shows how little you know about the Japanese way of thinking.
The way it works in Japan is that nobody gives a shit about anyones' hobbies/fantasies as long as said hobbies/fantasies don't affect anyone ELSE negatively, and don't break the law (obviously ). So if someone's a huge fan of tentacle rape hentai, then that's totally fine, society won't look down upon them for it and society won't care. Just as long as they don't start boasting about it in public (that would be very rude/impolite) and keep it to themselves or their friend-circle/club/group who are also into that kind of thing.

That's why you see the weirdest/random/unique shit in Japan, because nobody bothers to criticize something for being sexist/discriminatory if it's purely a piece of fictional fantasy. Japanese consider the idea of devaluing/misrepresenting real-life women or the "image" of women with fantasy oversexualized females as completely laughable & absurd.

Here's how a hypothetical interview would go between Team Ninja (Japanese developer) and a vidoegame feminist:

Feminist: Don't you think this misrepresents and devalues women?
Team Ninja: You mean devalue actual women? Of course not, that's crazy, we respect women. This is purely a work of fiction/fantasy.
Feminist: But it's still sexist against women, they keep wearing sexy outfits and have exaggerated proportions!
Team Ninja: We intended it to be like that, it's purely fantasy. If you don't like it then don't buy our game, give it a bad review, etc. If enough people feel the same way as you do then it will be a huge loss for our studio, and we'll learn from it. Next question please.
Feminist: But I'm criticizing your character design and art style! It's all sexist! Can't you handle criticism?
Team Ninja: Oh yes, we love criticism. Thank you for your feedback. We'll think about it. (hint: zero fucks given)

People from the West have trouble grasping such a thought process, because apparently every piece of art has to be about making a political statement whether fictional or not.

 

[NeedsaBetterName22]

As for this shaming of other people for expressing their sexuality, I blame religion for the majority of it (I know, not the most original thing to say but it's true).
The fact is, Abrahamic religion ruined sexuality. Before that, even if you look at Greek/Roman mythology, there were gods specifically responsible for sex and orgies. However, after the Roman empire became Christian, everything went to shit. Sexuality is deliberately shamed in the Bible to make the people feel guilty about it and seek forgiveness, which of course can only be achieved by being obedient to god, represented on Earth by "men of god" (clever little scheme, if I may add).
Things are getting better now that you can actually say "fuck Jahwe and Jesus and the Holy Ghost" and not get killed, but the whole "sex is shameful" mentality is still there. It's ingrained in Western culture because of 1,5 millenium of brainwashing.

Oh man, someone else who makes the 'Abrahamic faiths seriously warped our views on sexuality' argument. The Abrahamic faiths came with other benefits (early Christian and Islamic scientific work, the Protestant work ethic, etc.) but it effectively killed a lot of somewhat pro-sexuality pagan cultures. Abrahamic faiths are Romantic in nature, they're about developing yourself into a better person through their teachings, while pagan faiths were largely Realist, structured around a 'natural' state of being that assumes human sexuality/expression as normal.

 

[Someone Depressing]

You're not.

I don't know why you'd ask that. If you're a straight male, then there's a good chance you do, even secretly.

 

[Yuuki]

Is that so? You mean Japanese people never judge anyone else? Never form a private negative opinion about what other people do?

Huh. I guess I really don't know much about Japan. How did you learn so much?

By spending 2 years there and hearing their opinions - or more accurately, their LACK of opinions.

Of course everyone forms private opinions of what other people do - you actually answered yourself by using that word, their opinions are exactly that. Private. Japanese people rarely express what they're thinking out of courtesy and politeness. Instead they tend to express their feelings in other ways. Obviously this doesn't apply to every Japanese person, you do get the loud/rowdy/hyperactive type, but overall that is their general way of thinking.

In some aspects it's a really bad thought process because old ways are very difficult to change since people very much believe in "going with the flow". In some aspects it's great, because for art/media there are practically no bounds. Sure on the surface everything seems to be needing censorship, but under the surface...well, we know all about that.
Criticism for art/fantasy is kept far more relevant to the actual piece of art instead or skewing-off into how it represents genders or other politically-correct topics, that kind of criticism has it's place but obviously relating to stuff that is more grounded in reality. Like Japan's very real problem of women being stuck in traditional gender roles and unable to climb corporate ladders, you'll find plenty of criticism/opinions flying around regarding that.

Lets just put it this way - if someone like Anita Sarkeesian tried to make it big in Japan, her kickstarter would've made precisely jack-all and her number of supporters would be jack-all. Not because people don't express their opinions, but primarily because for Japanese people such topics hold no water. It's been seen time and again on multiple occasions.
Topics like sexism in media are barely worth discussing or arguing over, because they don't stir-up huge amounts of controversy. Most Japanese will agree that sexualization has a place in media, and I daresay most people will understand the only reason it's so abundant in media is because it's audience and sales are abundant.

 

[Yuuki]

So, what, are there like no feminists in Japan?

Criticism for art/fantasy is kept far more relevant to the actual piece of art instead or skewing-off into how it represents genders or other politically-correct topics, that kind of criticism has it's place but obviously relating to stuff that is more grounded in reality. Like Japan's very real problem of women being stuck in traditional gender roles and unable to climb corporate ladders, you'll find plenty of criticism/opinions flying around regarding that.

 

[Phasmal]

It honestly shocks me how many people seem to think you cannot criticise games without criticising gamers. How many people see this as a personal attack, and put themselves in the role of `Defender of VideoGames!`
It makes very little sense to me.
Does that make me some sort of video-game-traitor in their eyes? I should imagine so.
It is possible to love something without having to love everything it does.

 

[Yuuki]

What about my other question about gossip and shunning people based on private opinions? Please teach me, sensei!

Google is your sensei from this point onwards, I wish you the best of luck, you'll need it.