Why are Americans so Patriotic?

[dyre]

Not all Americans are blindly patriotic, but there are definitely people here that are nationalist or even borderline chauvinist. It's definitely something the government encourages. Up until college, public schools avoid saying much on the sins our forefathers committed, and we're forced to pledge allegiance to our flag.

Let them have their patriotism.

Their country is still new, they still have time to do a few more war crimes, maybe colonise some places, kill the natives etc.

You're only young once.


*sips tea*

Yes, quite.

Pff, you elitist old countries. We've already done all that. Manifest Destiny, the Philippines, South Vietnam, US-created dictatorships in Iran and Guatemala, Iraq, Afghanistan...we're not as experienced as the empire where the sun never sets, but we're getting there.

 

[Craorach]

Why do you feel no significance to the country that made so much of who and what you are? Do you just have poor self esteem? Would you react the same way to "England is crap" as "you are worthless".

I'd answer the same way. I love England, I can trace my ancestory and genetics back as far as it is possible to do so upon that great isle. I love it's people, it's history, it's culture and it's silly traditions.

It is still a little bit crap. It's wet, it's inhospitable and slowly falling into the sea. It's overpopulated and as a people we pretty much invented being an ass to each other for comedy. Not to mention we have done some pretty terrible things over the years.

One of the biggest problems I have with the American brand of Patriotism... and indeed Confidence.. if you can't look at yourself, or your country, and be open about it's.. or your.. faults, and laugh at them.. then you're just putting on a show.

 

[Something Amyss]

Because Americas education system is in the toilet many of the strongest companies in the world are outsourcing elsewhere. This is a very technologically demanding age. (AKA Lots of Math, Engineering, Science) Which America lacks.

It's also because they can pay them a fraction, saving money.

While being subsidised by the American Government, no less.

Yay.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Let them have their patriotism.

Their country is still new, they still have time to do a few more war crimes, maybe colonise some places, kill the natives etc.

You're only young once.


*sips tea*

Yes, quite.

Pff, you elitist old countries. We've already done all that. Manifest Destiny, the Philippines, South Vietnam, US-created dictatorships in Iran and Guatemala, Iraq, Afghanistan...we're not as experienced as the empire where the sun never sets, but we're getting there.

Don't you back talk me young man, or I swear, I'll turn this Atlantic Ocean around!

 

[Henkie36]

Let them have their patriotism.

Their country is still new, they still have time to do a few more war crimes, maybe colonise some places, kill the natives etc.

You're only young once.


*sips tea*

Yes, quite.

Already done that. But it was under the act of planting a sign in the ground saying ''Ours'', started by a few Britsh people who got lost, after which everyone who came after them start to plant more signs in the ground saying ''Ours'' and because the continent was so big, and the natives were in the way, might as well move them somewhere else. Until on a certain day two people looked at eachother and said: ''What's that? An ocean? Well, I guess there is no more room for indians anymore.''
What I especially love about the US is that it's supposed to be the most tolerant country in the world, but in the same way that Libya was the most democratic country in the world: it looks better on paper.
''Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.'' Oscar Wilde. He's right, it is.

 

[DRes82]

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. The idea of patriotism is that we all bow to flag. You got it. oh...here Patriotism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism].

Ah. Pedantry. Excellent.

I'm sure that I also meant literally bowing to the flag.

Wait, I'm NOT a pedant. I probably didn't.

"Pride." Also excellent. Pride is also one of those immutable words, I'm assuming. Because silly me, you calling for other people to be more prideful sounds pretty silly, too.

Not pedantry, sarcasm. Again, I'm asking whats wrong with a little extra pride in society? Does it hurt anyone? If anything, it strengthens the American public.

I, for one, am proud of a lot of things. My computer, that I spent half my life savings building. My job. My wife and family. None of these things would've been possible in a less fortunate country, so yeah, you're damned right I'm proud of America.

 

[Treblaine]

Being proud of ones country is fine. Being an arrogant bastard about it isnt - especially the "we beat the British" comment they make, when, if you know anything about your own history, you didn't. The French did.

The Naval battles maybe. But naval battles alone won't win you a war, it was a LONG and bloody ground war for so long, it lasted EIGHT YEARS where it was mostly paid in American blood and endeavour.

I think we as British need to stop being so sensitive that we lost JUST A SINGLE MAJOR CONFLICT IN THE MODERN ERA to the Americans, who had French allies. That's one strike against dozens of other victories.

Face it, if France alone or even largely had won the war then America would not be independent, it would be a French Colony.

 

[LilithSlave]

Nationalism is more than jut about country. It has heavy ethnic connotations. For instance, there are even people who claim to be National Anarchists, figure that one out. And do you know what everyone on the typical Anararchist Left(the Left and Anarchist general) calls them? Nazis. In fact, Revleft will ban users for anything that even so much as resembles Nationalism or National Anarchism. To an actual leftist, not an American "liberal", but an actual leftist, a Nationalist is another word for Nazi. The sworn enemy of the proletariat. Even localists are very suspicious to them.

But needless to say, nationalism isn't all about country. There's ethnic nationalism, things like white nationalism, black nationalism and ect., national anarchism, and the like. People who align themselves more with a culture, ethnicity, or race, more than a country, are also "nationalists".

For instance, many "nationalist" from the United States do not like the United States and are either old Southern Confederate types, or are Nordicists who think that the United States is irreconcilably Jewish and needs to be overthrown to erect a "Vinland" for white people.

That's right, the term "nationalist" includes Neo-Confederates and pro-Vinland White Nationalists who don't care a thing about the United States.

 

[Thaa'ir]

You know that being patriotic is actually part of our goal in public education here in the US right? I'm not even kidding. There is a reason that every morning, public school kids are made to stand and read the Pledge like we're goddamn Hitler youths.

We stopped doing that when I was so young I can hardly remember (I am 20, by the way), and no one I have ever met, from Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, New York, California, Florida, North Carolina, Iowa, and countless other states still is required to do that. I know that some, perhaps very many, schools still do, but to make it out like our entire nation is required to pledge its allegiance every single day is something of your experience, not fact.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

snip

So basically indoctrination, that's why Americans are so patriotic. It's got nothing to do with whether the country is great or not, it's that the children are taught about how awesome America is before they can even talk properly.

These two statements are perfect examples of the two extremes that make me despair for any real chance at global understanding.

snip

Also, I'm really kinda shocked at how much saying the Pledge in school seems to have affected everyone. I said the pledge in the mornings, and it was nothing more than part of the daily routine; like lining up for recess and lunch or going over the new spelling list for the week.

Heck, for most of elementary school I was mispronouncing many of the bigger words (i.e. indivisible). After they didn't do it anymore, I never even thought of it again. You aren't indoctrinating kids; you're BORING them with just some other school chore that they rattle out so they can get through the day and get back home where they can play.

Assuming that the pledge of allegiance is brainwashing kids is the same logic that lead to people saying you can't tell kids "no" in school because it stifles their free thinking.

Sorry about that, can't convey tone in a post.

I was being sarcastic (I'm always sarcastic) I don't really think that American nationalism is caused by reciting the pledge in schools, although I don't think it helps. That sort of viewpoint can only be brough about (I believe) by a deeper cultural indoctrination, in other words, the parents. I also, as the Edit I made should suggest, don't think America is some sort of hotbed of xenophobia and nationalism. I think America is pretty alright. Not fantastic, or even good, but then I don't think anywhere is really good or fantastic. America is no better and no worse than most other western civilisations, it's just that being so much bigger, it's problems and the perceptions thereof tend to be correspondingly bigger.

The slow march away from nationalism and towards patriotism will happen, hopefully in every country, as long as every generation is just a little more open than the last. We expect instant solutions, but that will never happen. Despite what people might believe slavery was not abolished overnight. There were decades of ill-feeling towards slavery, and even then the motions to abolish it took years to put together, and then nearly failed anyway. It's exactly the same with this. Most countries in the world had setbacks in their cultural understanding after WWII, and America is no exception, but see the bigger=well, bigger point above.

It may not have affected you, but pledging allegiance to the flag will have an affect on a lot of people. It's all about the cultural values which are ingrained so deeply most of us aren't even aware of them. I wouldn't consider myself particularly connected to Britain, but when I see the Union Jack even I feel something, because it is so deeply ingrained that I should.

Someday, American children will no longer have to pledge allegiance to the flag, and a few more of them will have a better chance of not becoming nationalists. Then maybe swearing on the Bible will not be mandatory for official ceremonies, despite it being part of the Constitution that religion should be no part of the state. Then religious tolerances will have relaxed a little. Maybe after that other religions will be better represented in government. Slowly but surely, little by little.

 

[direkiller]

snip.

Yes there is the Pledge of Allegiance started in the 1800 and has been going on for a while
now its just hand over the heart it used to use the Bellamy salute and was stopped for very obvious reasons. Its not like its a long speech its really just one sentience
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all
the under god part was added during the cold war

It started with a British tradition for governmental sessions and worked its way into the school system somehow

That's terrifying.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Amerca?

Why do you have to pledge allegiance? Making an oath of loyalty to a country? A duty of fidelity? My lord that's weird.

And to the republic for which it stands?

But what if the republic is wrong?

One nation UNDER GOD?

What if you're not religious? Are students forced to say this even if they aren't? we weren't even forced to sing God Save the Queen, or recite the Lord's Prayer if we didn't believe in it, do they really make children say this? In class? In school? Peer pressure them into becoming religious and patriotic? I thought the Sixth Amendment was about the separation of church and state, and the first was about the freedom of religion. What if you don't believe in a Christian God, let alone any deity?

Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all?

Well now that's just contradictory and silly. Of course the Republic of the United States of America UNDER GOD isn't indivisible, otherwise you wouldn't have two political parties damn near ready to go to war every election. And liberty and justice for all is just a dream.

No wonder the country's got problems.

1. your not forced to say it(its just sorta heavy implied that you should)


as for the flag part you kinda need a heavy dose of Revolutionary/War of 1812 history/mithos to understand that part. Its mostly just a big middle finger to the British oath of Allegiance and how it declares loyalty to the Queen/King and the superiority of the Church of England(something said before each Session of Parliament).

Indivisible refers to the fact that despite the fact there are separate states or ideas we stand united as one country.

the under god part is somewhat funny:
During the cold war Americans believed that the Russian government was telling its people that the government was equal to the religion. So basically its a way of saying that the government will not oppress your religions views like those darn Communist.

 

[Something Amyss]

Not pedantry, sarcasm.

No, the sarcasm was apparent, but you were ignoring the context of the thread in the first place in favour of a pedantic definition of patriotism.

Pedantry.

Sarcasm as well, but those two are not mutually exclusive, and the elements for both were there.

 

[TheCowman]

I really do see America as a bratty teenager who thinks it knows what is best in the world.

Whatever!

You just don't understand us! You never have! We wish we lived with mom! She'd never ground us for staying out late! SHE'D never make us turn down our music!

GAWD!!

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

Because Americas education system is in the toilet many of the strongest companies in the world are outsourcing elsewhere. This is a very technologically demanding age. (AKA Lots of Math, Engineering, Science) Which America lacks.

It's also because they can pay them a fraction, saving money.

While being subsidised by the American Government, no less.

Yay.

Sigh, well at least that will change in time. As economies grow so does the countries demands, which lead to a demand for high paychecks. Or so the theory goes.

 

[Trillovinum]

The thing about America is that it is NOT a single culture. We're an incredibly mixed culture with much variation.

The difference in culture between the ultra conservative Texas, the nanny-stateist California and New York, the meth-dealing Tenessee, and the other states...It's like lumping France in with Latvia as far as culture goes. Sure, they're both European and share a "similar" history, but the similarities stop there.

.

Latvia and France have "similar" history? excuse me... but where did you study? also, meth dealing Tennessee...

 

[Chris Sandford]

Because my country is paying for multiple college degrees, gives me free food, great insurance and a decent paycheck.
so im pretty damn supportive of that.

 

[Mallefunction]

You know that being patriotic is actually part of our goal in public education here in the US right? I'm not even kidding. There is a reason that every morning, public school kids are made to stand and read the Pledge like we're goddamn Hitler youths.

Also, I'm really kinda shocked at how much saying the Pledge in school seems to have affected everyone. I said the pledge in the mornings, and it was nothing more than part of the daily routine; like lining up for recess and lunch or going over the new spelling list for the week.

Heck, for most of elementary school I was mispronouncing many of the bigger words (i.e. indivisible). After they didn't do it anymore, I never even thought of it again. You aren't indoctrinating kids; you're BORING them with just some other school chore that they rattle out so they can get through the day and get back home where they can play.

Assuming that the pledge of allegiance is brainwashing kids is the same logic that lead to people saying you can't tell kids "no" in school because it stifles their free thinking.[/quote]

I never said saying the pledge actually worked as a brain-washing mechanism, just that our country still requires that kids do it. That's the disturbing bit.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I guess they simple have alot of pride for their country?

 

[DRes82]

I must admit many of my fellow Americans have Uncle Sam's stick of freedom shoved so far up their asses that they can't possibly see anything wrong with this country.

I'm the type of person that likes to view things from all sides before making a decision. America is NOT the greatest country in the world. Its ranking in health care and education has dropped significantly below the other super powers in the world.

Technically, America still has the worlds largest economy, though one can say China is doing far better with their economy that America is right now. America is divided so much so on so many things that it takes YEARS to get things done, that is true with other countries as well, but America has fallen behind in some areas while other countries step forward.

Example, stem cell research, America has tight grip laws on stem cell research, this because way back the only known way to get stem cells was from a fetus. Now days you can get them from the skin cells of the very patient you are treating. So all this research (and money) is going to other countries.

Because Americas education system is in the toilet many of the strongest companies in the world are outsourcing elsewhere. This is a very technologically demanding age. (AKA Lots of Math, Engineering, Science) Which America lacks.

I could go on and on. I will say one thing thats wonderful about this country. I can walk up to the President of the United States, call him a useless pile of shit and may he get struck down by lightning. And no one can do anything about it. The freedom of free expression is wonderful here. I know other countries have something similar, but they still tend to remain "tactful". America simply doesn't.

Your post was intelligent and thoughtful and most of it is, unfortunately, true. Our economy isn't as strong as it used to be and bureaucracy bogs down progress a lot of the time. Our education system and infrastructure are in dire need of an overhaul. The health care system, mehhh...I do ok with it, but I won't argue that point there.

The one problem I have with your post is your last sentence. Such a crass over generalization is a stark contrast to the rest of your seemingly thoughtful post. The only Americans not 'tactful' with their complete freedom of expression are very, very small minority. Don't lump a huge, diverse population in with idiots like WBC and fox news. Most of us aren't like that. You live here, you know that.

 

[Mallefunction]

There is a reason that every morning, public school kids are made to stand and read the Pledge like we're goddamn Hitler youths.

Actually, they are not FORCED to recite the pledge. The have the right to abstain.

Yeah, but most elementary school kids don't know that. They see everyone else reciting it so they join in so they don't feel left out.