Why are people making such a big deal of out of Quiet from MGS 5?
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I'm sorry, but you failed to address any of my points. The point of my post was that the idea that you can only complain about something when forced to take part in it is an idea that doesn't make any sense. What does cause and effect have to do with anything? DLC, No one FORCES you to buy it. Season Passes, no one FORCES you to buy them. The Xbone, no one FORCES you to buy it. Macs. No one FORCES you to buy them. Microtransactions, no one FORCES you to buy them. Yet gamers complain about those things daily and I never saw you saying "Oh stop complaining, no one FORCED you to do it" so why is this so special?inu-kun said:
No one forced me to play as Quiet? Well no one forced you to read my comment, yet you still criticized it. See how this works? When we see something we don't like, we complain about it. I don't see how you have to be forced into something to be allowed to do so.
So what happens if I don't like the aesthetic design of Quiet but want to utilize the game play mechanic that is attached to her, namely sniper support in missions? The choice to "not use her" is much less of a choice then you make it out to be, because apart from being fanservice she is also one of three major sidekick NPCs that all provide unique gameplay elements. Not that "it is optional" is an argument against design criticism to begin with.inu-kun said:
Just had some thoughts on making Quiet's design look 100x better:
So people have already brought up the "sheer, breathable fabric" thing, like folks in the desert already wear yeah? That's a good 'un.
I'll add, say, a wearable rig with a camelback and tubes that lead to moistened pads around her main absobtion points. You know, to keep hydrated on those long, hot desert missions.
Alternatively, ditch the floppy cloth, useless leggings, and arm leather. Sport bra, running shorts (or board shorts, those still breath), Knee and Elbow pads. You know, so she can crawl along those sharp, rocky desert floors without scraping up her immaculate horribly burned skin. Combine with the water system, tubes just run to the insides of the pads or something.
Same amount of skin showing, same Kojima perviness potential[footnote]I'll let you figure that out on your own, kiddos[/footnote], and a mother-f*ck more practical design.
Seriously, Kojima needed an editor/handler.
So people have already brought up the "sheer, breathable fabric" thing, like folks in the desert already wear yeah? That's a good 'un.
I'll add, say, a wearable rig with a camelback and tubes that lead to moistened pads around her main absobtion points. You know, to keep hydrated on those long, hot desert missions.
Alternatively, ditch the floppy cloth, useless leggings, and arm leather. Sport bra, running shorts (or board shorts, those still breath), Knee and Elbow pads. You know, so she can crawl along those sharp, rocky desert floors without scraping up her immaculate horribly burned skin. Combine with the water system, tubes just run to the insides of the pads or something.
Same amount of skin showing, same Kojima perviness potential[footnote]I'll let you figure that out on your own, kiddos[/footnote], and a mother-f*ck more practical design.
Seriously, Kojima needed an editor/handler.
The fact that apparently things can be different makes me question how valid the "it's not forced" defense is.inu-kun said:
So first it was forced, now it's how serious it is? Is there a freaking chart I need to go through before I'm allowed to voice my complaints about something? In a thread that directly freaking asks for them?
Perharps everyone cares too much on how Quiet is dressed? And I mean even me. Just a consideration to keep in mind.
I like Quiet just the way she is.
I don't make any claims to motives or morals or ethics or reality or immersion.
I simply like hot and sexy women, and I do not need any justification for it. I don't understand why that's something to be ashamed of these days (or hide/rationalize away).
I don't make any claims to motives or morals or ethics or reality or immersion.
I simply like hot and sexy women, and I do not need any justification for it. I don't understand why that's something to be ashamed of these days (or hide/rationalize away).
I like attractive women as much as the next straight guy. But Quiet is just ridiculous - yes, even in the context of giant robots and magic. See, within the over-the-top rules of the world, those things make sense. But Quiet still doesn't make sense. She's a character who would never choose to dress herself that way, yet the designer dressed her that way anyway. We can make all the justifications about skin-breathing we want, but that doesn't change the fact that Quiet is not dressed practically. Her outfit is completely designed around being sexually appealing over practicality.
Sexy characters are fine*, but you have to make me believe that the character would choose to dress in a sexy way. Not only is Quiet in a warzone, she's a sniper, which means that she spends most of her time not being seen by anybody. I don't know about you, but when I have a day where I know I'm not going to be seen by many people, I dress for comfort over looking good. Those tights would get snagged on things, her boobs would constantly be flopping out of her bikini top, and that ridiculous thong thing would be giving her a wedgie. Nothing about Quiet's characterization makes us believe that she would dress like that; thus, we know that she is dressed like that purely so that she looks attractive for the player. AKA she has been objectified.
*but maybe distribute that sexiness equally between the genders
Sexy characters are fine*, but you have to make me believe that the character would choose to dress in a sexy way. Not only is Quiet in a warzone, she's a sniper, which means that she spends most of her time not being seen by anybody. I don't know about you, but when I have a day where I know I'm not going to be seen by many people, I dress for comfort over looking good. Those tights would get snagged on things, her boobs would constantly be flopping out of her bikini top, and that ridiculous thong thing would be giving her a wedgie. Nothing about Quiet's characterization makes us believe that she would dress like that; thus, we know that she is dressed like that purely so that she looks attractive for the player. AKA she has been objectified.
*but maybe distribute that sexiness equally between the genders
Don't start.Fallow said:
No one is criticizing Quiet to shame you for finding her attractive. People are criticizing Quiet because she looks dumb. I'm a heterosexual male with a rather large porn collection and I still think she looks very dumb.
Considering The End from MGS3 had the exact same photosynthesis thing going on and he wore a full ghillie suit, it doesn't make any sense. Even the other Skulls snipers you face later in the game have more clothes on.
She is simply sex appeal to appeal the the audience. Which is fine, but it would be better if Kojima didn't write this flimsy explanation as to why she's half naked all the time to try to hide that fact.
She is simply sex appeal to appeal the the audience. Which is fine, but it would be better if Kojima didn't write this flimsy explanation as to why she's half naked all the time to try to hide that fact.
Just a thought, nothing more:MarsAtlas said:
I understand completely where you're coming from with your point regarding tonal cohesion. Indeed, it is rather odd to see a lovely lady prancing around in a bikini in the middle of combat zones filled with angry Soviets and PF's. However - if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment - consider this: the tone of Phantom Pain - Quiet's outfit included - remains cohesive with the tone established in the rest of the franchise.
-MGS 1 gave us Sniper Wolf, a Russian sniper walking around in frigid Alaska with her tits hanging out.
-MGS 2 gave us countless bikini-girl pinups, one of which you can actually kiss, as well as Fortune: a lovely lady walking around with a bunch of terrorists wearing naught but an open trench coat draped loosely over her body which is clad in a form-fitting one-piece swimsuit.
-MGS 3 gave us this lovely little minx:
Most fans of the series - at least from what I gather - hail MGS 3 as being the best of the series, yet it contains a female protagonist who's constantly walking around with her tits out. She unzips her jumpsuit for no reason other than showing off her body. On top of all this she practically throws herself at Snake on a number of occasions.
-Peace Walker features cutscenes involving a 15 year old girl in her bra and panties for some reason...while she's giving a menacing, villainous monologue no less.
I haven't experienced MGS4, but I I'd have to imagine there's some blatant fanservice in it as well.
To quote the Honest Trailer for the series: "This is a franchise that bounces back and forth between highly in depth attention to realistic detail and the goofiest shit you've ever seen in a video game." We're talking about a franchise that, as a running gag, has a soldier in each game suffering from explosive diarrhea. A franchise that, just for the hell of it, forces you to walk under a guy's piss stream.
As such, I submit that when taken with the context of the rest of the franchise, Quiet's outfit fits the tone perfectly. In the end, don't many fans of the series claim that aspects of each individual game's non-cohesive tone - the bouncing between silliness and seriousness - are part of the charm of the series? Is it ok to have a mechanic where if you stand next to a sign that says "Watch Out For Falling Boxes" in Mother Base for long enough a box will actually drop on your head - complete with cartoon sound effects - but not ok to have a bikini-clad sniper jetting around the desert?
All of this is not, however, to say that there isn't a good reason to be upset about Quiet's appearance. That reason lies with Kojima, though, not necessarily with Quiet's design. The true reason to be upset about the way Quiet looks is due to Kojima addressing questions about her design by pissing in our faces and telling us it's raining. The whole "you'll be ashamed when you find out why" bullshit. THAT'S why people should be upset about her, because the truth is blatantly obvious: Kojima just wanted a sexy female main character in his game...as he has featured in pretty much every other game in the series. This time he tried to at least cook up an excuse, the problem is that the excuse is complete rubbish. As Jim Sterling said: it would have been much better if he had just been honest from the beginning...if he had just come out and said "Look guys, I like having sexy ladies in my games, so I'm going to put one in this game too. That's why she's dressed like that."
Just some food for thought regarding the situation.
Fair enough, as I said I was mostly just playing devil's advocate since I don't particularly feel like arguing this point and even I - as indicated in my previous point - agree that there is worthy reason to be upset with her appearance.MarsAtlas said:
More personally: it doesn't bother me all that much simply because for most of the game she's out of sight and out of mind. In the ACC, I'm tabbing through iDroid menus which pretty much block her out entirely and on missions she's hidden away in sniper posts far, far away from me. Not much time to ogle her really...unless you're specifically looking to ogle her.
But that's just me, and I'm not quite silly enough to assume that my reasons for not really being up-in-arms about her appearance (other than the fact that Kojima was a coward about it) will work for everyone else's tastes.
I think you're reading too much into it. I make no claims that everyone must or should like it. I merely state that I like it.MarsAtlas said:
Reading your text it also seems like this is something you take very seriously. For your own peace of mind, it might be a good idea to take a break.
I seem to have read several paragraphs here where liking Quiet is equivocated to being childish and immature. If that was all in my head, I apologise.erttheking said:
And you're going to have to point out how that transitions into you not being allowed to like women at all.Fallow said:
Also please quote where it was said that liking Quiet was immature and not just that the design was immature.
Also I don't know what you're getting on Mars for. This is a video game forum. We talk about video games. The hell is wrong with having your arguments being in depth?
Writing more than one paragraph on a subject does not suggest that person is "taking it seriously" at all, let alone "taking it too seriously" for their mental well being. There are a lot of ways people can "take something seriously" to the point where it becomes risible, such as suggesting that mocking or issuing censure at clearly ridiculous character design constitutes "shaming". Simply speaking at length about a subject? Eh. Not so much.Fallow said:
No, we shouldn't need to care about what others think when we buy entertainment products for ourselves, if someone thinks we should then they are genuinely entitled.MarsAtlas said:
You place way too much importance on your personnel tastes when you start calling out people who disagree with it. A simple I personally don't like it for X reason should have sufficed, any reason, that would have been yours and no one could have called you wrong for it.
A simple "I don't like it for X reasons" leads to accusations ranging from whining to sabotage to "creating a chilling environment that forces the creators into self-censorship".Gengisgame said:
Let's not pretend that everyone is comfortable with "a simple I don't like it". They're not. Some of them positively lose their shit upon discovering that someone dislikes something they like. This is particularly endemic in the gaming community, where the 7-10 scale has become gospel and anything under a 9 is considered shots fired.
To be fair in that respect no armor in the world is going to save your ass from a headshot. But I also haven't played any of the MGS games so I don't really know if there is greater context to this.Samtemdo8 said:
Well for one when the camera focuses on Jack it never tried to horribly objectify her because of it.inu-kun said:
This is also not to mention that her reason for her attire is 500X more sensible than Quiet's.
Jack's whole life basically sums up being in prison. She's predominately topless because she wants to show off her tattoos that hold various meanings to her. In the concept art book they talked about how the tattoos on her body represented her 'Sisters' (who apparently died/were killed.) How many guards she killed, how many times and what prisons she got sent to, etc. etc. So naturally someone like her would want to show that off as much as possible because that displays her history front and center (and possibly a warning to others not to fuck with her). And Mass Effect 3 especially got shat on A LOT for the noticeable upgarde in boob size on characters like Liara and Ashley, and how the latter character- a hardcore military person that practically does this as a military career was sporting hot lipstick, hair length that violates military standards and a dash of sexy space suit. It literally went against everything she was as a character.
Back to Jack-
Never when Jack was around did I ever feel like she was objectified or there for the sexual gratification of the viewer. Every single time Quiet comes in to the scene most people were just unnerved by her and didn't care for the jiggle boobs and ass.
On top of that Kojima made it out to be some Earth shattering reason for her attire that basically amounted to science bullshit. No one would care if she was blatant fanservice if they just came out and fucking said it.