Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[Pist0l 07]

I am aware that most feminists are wonderful or at least decent people, and I don't have a problem with feminisim in general. Can you explain to me why you perceieve me as a jerk?

Because I only based my opinion off that one post while half asleep. I actually was going through some of the comments again and realized that I had judged to quickly. I read some more of your posts and I feel obligated to say I'm sorry about that. I'm actually going to edit that post. I guess that'll show me for making judements on people while half asleep.

On a side note: I think part of the reason I got that perception was your comment that the industry is moving away from haveing fanservice characters. I disagree, but that statment doesn't mean your a jerk, it is just a difference in opinions, once again sorry.

 

[Pist0l 07]

The fact that you think that just demonstrates all the more why that video is necessary. Thank you for proving my point

Oh we dont "think that," we know that. The fact that that video includes a stat for girls raped while walking to school in any given year, which is actually higher then the entire national stat for rape in the contential US. The rest is equally wrong or misrepresented & has been proven to be wrong by peer reviewed studies & extensive number crunching by actual experts.

The world is a bit bigger than the continental US, sorry to say. Have you considered that the "raped while walking to school" bit may cover, oh I don't know, the entire world? And that the national stat for rape in the US is believed to be significantly higher than reported due to the fact that most rape is never reported?

Just keep digging your hole. You're free to cling to your misogynistic, privileged beliefs all you want, but it does not change the fact that feminism is a desperately needed force even in modernized countries.

I'd tend to agree with you if Feminism was a force for equality instead of misandrism. See, there go those isms again. Pesky little things.

Isms always seem to cause problems don't they. Mabye they should change the name to gender equality rather then feminism. I understand changing the name because some outliers and extremists in a group damages your PR is infuriating, but it could be for the best.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

No.

What's he's asking for is that people start seeing the genders as equal, rather than privileging males by viewing them as the "default gender".

Except they are the default... In every dangerous, semi-heroic real life position, male is the default. There are more men in every single service field, from police, to the armed forces, to ambulance drivers. Thats just a case of art imitating life. An just like its not sexist for more men to be doing the dangerous jobs then women (due to there area of interest), such it is that having slightly more male characters then female characters as the main protagonist is also not sexist.

Once this has happened, it will naturally be reflected in the number of characters of different genders that appear in the media. This won't mean that people can't "tell their story"; as Twilight_guy has correctly pointed out, almost every time there is no inherent need for a protagonist to be one gender over another, that protagonist turns out male. Gender equality would change this, and without any adverse effects on the story itself or the creators' vision.

So I'll ask you the same question i asked him... If i right now produced a book where the hero is a man, is that work of fiction sexist because the hero was not a woman? And if it is not sexist, then how does it differ from the same story told via a computer game medium?

would i like to see more veriaty in computer game characters? Sure i would, i would like that across the board (as to be honest i'm sick of games about burly, mealy mouthed, space marines, with giant guns). Do i think that the fact that there are slightly more male protagonists then female protagonists is due to sexism? No. Do i think its a gender issue at all? No. Why not? Because its not... Its a bad case of observationa bias, superimposed over multiple titles, over multiple genres, over multiple systems & then phrased as "why are people so against feminism in gaming?". The answer is, feminism & gender politics has nothing to do with it.

-M

Just because there are more men in certain professions, that does not mean that there have to be. "There are more men in a given profession" does not equal "Men are the default". It equals "Men are currently more common". You cannot argue "area of interest" as a mere biological fact when gender roles are imposed on all of us - all genders - from birth. "You're a girl; you like pink, skipping, flowers, baking and playing at being a nurse." "You're a boy; you like blue, running, mud pies, toy guns and playing at being a fireman." It is not necessarily sexist that there are more men than women in the professions you mention. But until these preconceptions about gender have been completely eradicated, until everyone and anyone is free to express their gender however they wish (which means that it's also fine for either sex to freely assume the traditional gender role currently imposed on them), it is not possible to make that assertion. How the hell do you know that it's not in women's areas of interest to be police officers? It's drilled into everyone that this job is meant for men. The standard term is "policeman", for heaven's sake. Your argument is the same old Victorian idea of "separate spheres", all over again.

And no, of course it's not sexist to write a book with a male protagonist. That is a ludicrous non-argument, and you know it. Where the sexism can be seen in the gaming industry, and the media as a whole, is through trends. If you wrote 10 books with nurses and secretaries as protagonists, and 10 about big-business CEOs and firefighters, and if all 10 protagonists of the first group were women while all 10 protagonists of the second were men, that would make you sexist, or at the very least demonstrate your rigid adherence to restrictive and traditional views on gender. (Which for many people, by the way, is the same thing.)

I do not agree that there are "slightly" more male protagonists than female. In my eyes, the discrepancy is overwhelming. Why have you not considered the fact that maybe you are suffering from observation bias, rather than everyone who disagrees with you? This is probably not an argument we can settle without actually going out and counting the protagonists in every game that exists, which frankly I don't have the time for. But I'd like you to at least take a look at the most popular titles in the game charts, note the gender of the protagonists and make up your mind based on that.

Also: "Do i think its a gender issue at all? No. Why not? Because its not..." That's a nice circular argument you have there.

 

[Harlief]

Culture.

If it becomes more gender neutral, we lose the culture. We lose a lot really. Most of it doesn't matter. However, the gaming subculture would be a lot different if we let everyone in. Things change as they become mainstream >_> ask a fan of any indie band that got popular.

Culture, like energy cannot be lost, it can only be transformed into a different form... I mean, unless you wipe out everyone who practices a certain culture.

Hell, some of us already live in gender neutral sub-cultures

 

[Saint Cynicism]

Except they are the default... In every dangerous, semi-heroic real life position, male is the default. There are more men in every single service field, from police, to the armed forces, to ambulance drivers. Thats just a case of art imitating life. An just like its not sexist for more men to be doing the dangerous jobs then women (due to there area of interest), such it is that having slightly more male characters then female characters as the main protagonist is also not sexist.

Area of interest? You do know that in the case of the armed forces, it's because women are usually flat out forbidden from serving in any front line combat roles, right? As in, excluded by default, "you're not allowed to even try out for this" kind of excluded? I'm not saying that's the case with every other profession (the realm of painting with the broad brush remains your exclusive domain, good sir), but yeesh. Bad call lumping that one in there.

Also I'd love for you to provide some sort of tally saying there's only "slightly" more male protagonists than female ones. In the interest of fairness, games where the player can choose the sex of the main character are to be excluded. In the interest of sport, you do not have to include sports games of any kind (as they either involve character creation as well, such as with the "extreme sports" games, or typically cover a sport where men's & women's leagues are kept separate, which the developer really has no control over).

So I'll ask you the same question i asked him... If i right now produced a book where the hero is a man, is that work of fiction sexist because the hero was not a woman? And if it is not sexist, then how does it differ from the same story told via a computer game medium?

Not by default, no. But to answer the second part of your question: you usually can't change the sex of a character in a book. They just don't work that way. Computer game mediums have that capability, and have for a while. Devs can allow the user to select the sex of the character when they start playing, book authors typically can't (unless they get into that "choose your own adventure" stuff). Though honestly I'd prefer more games had an element of character customization to begin with, since I'm getting kind of sick of playing Beefcake McStrongbody the Heavily Armored Space Marine all the time.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I'd play a game where you're a machine-gun totting woman who still has time to be a normal person on the side.
Seriously, it doesn't bother me.

 

[Phalene]

It really depends on what you mean by feminism. Generally people take a lot of it for granted and only notice the egregious bits that stand out- so the word serves primarily to draw a particular sort of frothing at the mouth insecurity about things that bother men about the short end of the stick that they got handed. It can't be fun to have society tell you you're an expendable meathead who is redundant to his family unit, anymore than I enjoy being told I need to be a virginal-in-all-the-right-ways, attractively packaged hole who lives to be a helpmeet for men and children.


I don't waste time with Duke Nukem's current efforts to inflame popular discourse by heavily objectifying women. It's supposed to be transgressive, mostly I find it pretty sad, sort of like some evangelical teenager trying to be satanist to upset their grandmother. It's a pity I live in a culture where I'm a commodity as well as a person, but cheap gimmicks go with having nothing better to say and it's not like the company wanted my gaming dollars. They're desperate for an audience to what we all know is going to be a bland game. Evidently a lot of men like that sort of power fantasy, enough that the marketing gnomes hedged their bets, and I don't think that anyone is unaware the a lot of pandering is happening.

 

[Torrasque]

...
For guys, the cooler it looks, and the more it protects = the more it protects.
For fems, the sexier it looks, and the less it protects = the more it protects.
This applies to anime, manga, games, and movies (probably applies to books, but hard to visualize in most cases)

Like I said, sex sells, and it would be stupid of them to not go with that

That is bullshit, Oblivion (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Armor#Light_Armor_Images) doesn't have any of that crap you mention and it still sold good. It is just **** like you that believe that ****.

Sex doesn't sell anything to anyone who actually has sex and even the ones that don't have sex won't think: "Uhh, short skirt. I have to buy that game."
Do you really think male gamers are THAT stupid?

Are you really going to pull the "go get laid" argument? That is such a facile bullshit claim.
And yes, sex sells. Its not even something I'm going to argue, it is simple marketing fact.
YES there are still games, anime, manga, movies, commercials that DON'T use sex to sell product, that doesn't mean the point is invalid altogether.

And yes, Oblivion does ignore this rule a bit, but you can still see the curves on a fem pretty good considering the fact she's wearing full daedric plate. But if you look at movies, OTHER games, manga, anime, and commercials, you see an overwhelming support of what I have said.

To be fair, very few people are going to buy a game just because it has tits in it, but when they see the advertisement, that is definitely something that effects their decision whether they realize it or not. If you look at fighting games for example, female fighters are very likely to be wearing skimpy outfits, tight clothing, and have huge knockers.
Thats just how marketing works, and you can try to find a guy that would rather have Chun Li, Taki and Morrigan in modest clothing, but you will fail.

 

[EvilPicnic]

^^poster above, bigots have children too, who will grow up to be bigots. I agree that we need to have some patience, but ignoring a problem won't help it go away, and could lend it credence as being acceptable.

Anyway.

I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.

But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.

Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.

Here we go again, accuse male gamers of being 'nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty', and making fun of even game devs of having been nerdy boys. I thought gaming was already nerd-culture, or did that change when I wasn't looking.

What, that's not fucking mysandrous to gang up like that on male gamers and male developers? Why do male gamers and male developers have to take all the heat for an entertainment factor you feel entitled to join in when they toiled and sweat to get the industry up and running without female guidance or support (unless you were married to a game developer, or supported the industry since its early days)? Again, I am going to reiterate an older point, don't fucking blame us, when there is enough room in the industry for you. Not as consumers (if you really feel the industry, is not up to your standards at this current point in times), but as creators, developers. We are living in a society where it's fucking easier to be female. As a male, I still feel the pressure of having balls. Oh, you like games, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you are not into sport, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you like anime, you little nerdy man-child.

This 'institutionalized misogny' as you call it, is not existent, or is it because not all games cater to you, hell, I don't play JRPGs because of the cutesy characters. Gaming is an escapism, and right now, it does not need to grow the fuck up.

Want it to evolve? Want it to be more accepting of you? Then suck it up, and join the damn industry, toil and sweat, just like those 'nerdy little man-childs' did once. There's enough room for all of us.

But don't you dare yap on about male gamers and developers being nerdy manliness-minus-one-mysognistic dicks.

I can yap on about whatever I like, thank you very much

But I think you missed my point: I'm saying that that's what gamers AREN'T. That's why I called it a 'stereotype', most gamers aren't nerdy pubescent boys and never were, but many people assume they are. It's a myth perpetuated by the media and the gaming industry, and does everyone involved a disservice.

A 2009 ESA survey showed that 75% of gamers are over 18, and 25% are over 50. But who is EA's 'You Mom Hates Dead Space 2' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

It also says that the ratio of male to female gamers is 3:2. So for every 10 gamers, 4 are female. But who is Gamestation's 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

How many female game developers are there, compared to male? Not many, and none that I can immediately name. [EDIT] I just looked it up. According to a 2005 IGDA study only 11.5% of people in the Game Development industry are female, and most of them are in HR. 95% of programmers are male [/EDIT]

Saying the gaming industry doesn't have a problem with sexism is like saying the FA doesn't have a problem with homosexuality.

And I think it's very possible for a game to be escapist, fun, and popular without having to regress your mind to that of a hormonal high-school boy. This is a very narrow demographic and is overly represented in mainstream gaming.

Okay, normally I don't touch this subject with a 60-foot pole(I'm really not too informed on it, and don't have strong feelings to either side) but I find it insulting that you say a high-school aged male is a regressed mind-set.

Hell yeah, some of them, I deal with them every day. But "male age 14-18" isn't synonymous with "stupid."

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that 14 year-olds are 'stupid' in any way, and I apologise if I offended you. Maybe 'regress' was a loaded word. What I meant in this context was that tastes change, and as most people consider themselves to be 'progressing' through life, for an older person to mentally return to an earlier state would be a 'regression'. And that's not a bad thing in itself (speaking as a male man-child); there's nothing wrong with making games for the consumption of male teens.

But when the majority of gamers are adults and 40% of gamers are girls, it just strikes me as odd (and bad business) that there's such an unduly massive focus on making games and advertisements to suit the tastes of such a small demographic. That's all.

 

[4173]

thank you for being the first person to ask for Data, because i have it. Here is the list of every PC game to be released in 2011 http://www.mcvuk.com/retail-biz/release-dates/pc . Now go through the list and after taking out all the games that dont include real characters (such as PVP focused FPS, such as Crysis 2, or magic the gathering, or games about robots like portal 2) & games like Batman (where the character is someone elses intellectual property, or a sequal), lets see how many games on that list have no female protagonist (be it player controlled or sidekick)... Hmmm, lets see... less then a handful by the looks of it (heck i'd go as far as saying provisionally, none). hmmmmm, seems like the actual knowledge again out does "common knowledge"... Aint that always the way.

-M

I'm curious, why do you exclude Crysis 2 and games of that nature? To me it seems like those are exactly the sorts of games that should have both gender options available. I think those games are trying to put an avatar of the player into the game world (as opposed to putting the player into a pre-made character) so the broad strokes should strive for customization.

There is an element of subjectivity as to what reasonable accommodation for those options should be, acknowledged. However, gender is so basic and in your face, I think it may have a special importance in feeling like one's avatar.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yeah game companies can make lame characters but that's only a side issue. Ask yourself of all the major games coming out soon, what is the percentage of male vs. female protagonists. The community playing these games is, according to statistics, roughly 50/50. I can't say for any particular game but the growing list of surveys that note the rise in females gamers seems to suggest that at the very least there is a comparable number of female to male gamers playing any given games. Now it has been historically the case that the number of male to female protagonists has not been reflective of the ratio of male to female gamers. That seems odd. Most stories don't address stories that require a male lead or a female lead so why is it that these numbers don't reflect what we would get from a random sampling of people, roughly 50/50? I mean if we throw a dice to determine the main characters gender should we have more female leads? Now you can argue over what this means of wiether this is good or bad but I see it as an issue that can be addressed. Why don't we have more equal numbers or at least the option to pick male of female leads? I mean its not an outrageous feature to implement and unless the topic calls for someone of one particular gender (which some games do) then why isn't there an option like this? I think that an issue that relates to feminism that can be addressed. Even if we say writers suck then at least male/female can suck in equal ratio.

First, who on earth says player characters need to be representative of the population of gamers?

Second, who on earth says player characters need to be representative of the population of gamers?

But let's do things your way, shall we?

I very much doubt that particularly many gamers are gritty, well-armoured soldier protagonists who can heal even the most grievous wounds by crouching behind a wall for five seconds, so basically all action games except for S.T.A.L.K.E.R should never have been made.

Also, most gamers are most likely not grand marshals in charge of entire armies, so more than 100% of all strategy games go out the window.

Of course, people aren't gods, so all games like Sim City or The Sims are out.

No wizards, so zero fantasy games.

Really, we don't need to overstretch your logic all that much to make sure that the only games ever made would be about dull and gray people leading boring lives and being called by their cousin every five minutes, IE we're left with GTA IV.

Now you'll naturally say this is silly, but if you want the player characters to be representative of the gender balance among gamers, what gives you the right to decide that that particular characteristic is the be-all end-all in the industry?

Third, you are, in essence, saying "Screw artistic integrity and vision, everyone should be forced to ignore that completely in favour of always making sure that half of all protagonists are whiny teenagers complai...I mean, women!" (and no, I wasn't poking fun at women, I was poking fun at your arbitrary choice of group balance).

Let's see, red herring, I'm talking about gender not the realistic portrayal of mechanics in comparison to real life. In addition, I made no statement about rejecting any games I wanted to increase the portray of one group.
Slippery slope, you're saying if I reject one thing then I must reject everything in gaming. Straw-man argument, since although my rational was admittedly not as clear as I should have made it you choose to ignore the problem of why does there exist a discrepancy and portray my argument as instead being "all must must be realistic" which is a false extension of my augment.
I never said this had to be a be-all end-all thing, it actually a small point but an important point in gaming. Its among a collection of issues that games need to address and look at the roots of in order to understand itself and be able to evolve.
If you watch all my other posts you'll noticed that I mention this about games that do not specifically require characters to be of one gender or the other for some reason. This argument is for gender neutral personalities and characters. If you think that a story is less artistic because its gender-neutral character is female or a choice between the two instead of just making it another dude then... well I'm not going to say that your opinion is wrong but it would be very sexist. If you're goign to say "but that's how they were imagined" then I'll respond with the fact that that is the thing I want to change. That is a bias that I wish to address and expose to the light. Why do we automatically make them male if gender doesn't matter?
On top of that, for gender neutral characters gender doesn't affect personality.At least not in a significant degree. If it did have an important role then I wouldn't consider the character gender neutral I would consider it gender specific. For gender neutrals who wind up male, social pressures for gender and the physical penis or vagina do not really factor in as a big part of personality. Many characters are like this and yet are usually male despite just as easily being able to be female.
Even if they're not and gendered characters all have to be male for some reason, that raises the question of why the hell aren't we writing more stories that allow for female protagonists? Are we somehow unable to write stories where the main character needs to be feminine isn't that inability to address these concepts, concept that affect at least half of everyone, a problem? If the majority of gamers are now woman why aren't we writing stories with gender characters that are female? Isn't that a lucrative business idea from a market stand point not to mention a good stand point from a social issues platform? What is the reason and can we address it?

 

[Cheesepower5]

Spoiler: quotes removed for space

^^poster above, bigots have children too, who will grow up to be bigots. I agree that we need to have some patience, but ignoring a problem won't help it go away, and could lend it credence as being acceptable.

Anyway.

I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.

But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.

Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.

Here we go again, accuse male gamers of being 'nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty', and making fun of even game devs of having been nerdy boys. I thought gaming was already nerd-culture, or did that change when I wasn't looking.

What, that's not fucking mysandrous to gang up like that on male gamers and male developers? Why do male gamers and male developers have to take all the heat for an entertainment factor you feel entitled to join in when they toiled and sweat to get the industry up and running without female guidance or support (unless you were married to a game developer, or supported the industry since its early days)? Again, I am going to reiterate an older point, don't fucking blame us, when there is enough room in the industry for you. Not as consumers (if you really feel the industry, is not up to your standards at this current point in times), but as creators, developers. We are living in a society where it's fucking easier to be female. As a male, I still feel the pressure of having balls. Oh, you like games, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you are not into sport, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you like anime, you little nerdy man-child.

This 'institutionalized misogny' as you call it, is not existent, or is it because not all games cater to you, hell, I don't play JRPGs because of the cutesy characters. Gaming is an escapism, and right now, it does not need to grow the fuck up.

Want it to evolve? Want it to be more accepting of you? Then suck it up, and join the damn industry, toil and sweat, just like those 'nerdy little man-childs' did once. There's enough room for all of us.

But don't you dare yap on about male gamers and developers being nerdy manliness-minus-one-mysognistic dicks.

I can yap on about whatever I like, thank you very much

But I think you missed my point: I'm saying that that's what gamers AREN'T. That's why I called it a 'stereotype', most gamers aren't nerdy pubescent boys and never were, but many people assume they are. It's a myth perpetuated by the media and the gaming industry, and does everyone involved a disservice.

A 2009 ESA survey showed that 75% of gamers are over 18, and 25% are over 50. But who is EA's 'You Mom Hates Dead Space 2' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

It also says that the ratio of male to female gamers is 3:2. So for every 10 gamers, 4 are female. But who is Gamestation's 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

How many female game developers are there, compared to male? Not many, and none that I can immediately name. [EDIT] I just looked it up. According to a 2005 IGDA study only 11.5% of people in the Game Development industry are female, and most of them are in HR. 95% of programmers are male [/EDIT]

Saying the gaming industry doesn't have a problem with sexism is like saying the FA doesn't have a problem with homosexuality.

And I think it's very possible for a game to be escapist, fun, and popular without having to regress your mind to that of a hormonal high-school boy. This is a very narrow demographic and is overly represented in mainstream gaming.

Okay, normally I don't touch this subject with a 60-foot pole(I'm really not too informed on it, and don't have strong feelings to either side) but I find it insulting that you say a high-school aged male is a regressed mind-set.

Hell yeah, some of them, I deal with them every day. But "male age 14-18" isn't synonymous with "stupid."

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that 14 year-olds are 'stupid' in any way, and I apologise if I offended you. Maybe 'regress' was a loaded word. What I meant in this context was that tastes change, and as most people consider themselves to be 'progressing' through life, for an older person to mentally return to an earlier state would be a 'regression'. And that's not a bad thing in itself (speaking as a male man-child); there's nothing wrong with making games for the consumption of male teens.

But when the majority of gamers are adults and 40% of gamers are girls, it just strikes me as odd (and bad business) that there's such an unduly massive focus on making games and advertisements to suit the tastes of such a small demographic. That's all.

And I can't say I disagree with that, I just wasn't sure if you were being insulting or I was just being nit-picky.

 

[newfoundsky]

I don't see anything wrong with the statement "Games are cheaper than your girlfriend." I told this to my dad and he laughed, then (and yes I did) I called my grandfather and he laughed. Both of these men have been in the navy and love their wives very much.

So its not that people who find this funny are sexist or immature, funny is funny. Just because you don't get it, or it offends you for some reason, doesn't make it any less funny. Humor is an excellent marketing strategy, and a lot of different groups take offense to a lot of different types of humor.

Besides, on average that would make your girlfriend worth millions of dollars. I took it as a compliment.

 

[Saint Cynicism]

I'm curious, why do you exclude Crysis 2 and games of that nature? To me it seems like those are exactly the sorts of games that should have both gender options available. I think those games are trying to put an avatar of the player into the game world (as opposed to putting the player into a pre-made character) so the broad strokes should strive for customization.

Because it torpedoes his argument is why.


Kind of like how when he linked to 2011 releases, he decided we were only supposed to count the PC releases. Not to mention failed to notice that it wasn't counting games already released.

 

[Therumancer]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

It's because there is nothing sexist involved, in general 99% of "feminism" today is just people looking to make noise, grab a headline, and get five minutes of fame. The movement has outlived it's usefulness, and has no serious issues to pursue anymore, it's all about causing trouble to justify it's own existance.

The whole "cheaper than your girlfriend" thing is hardly a big deal, being no worse than plenty of ads directed at women that present men as being complete bozos. I mean watch TV sometime and you'll notice advertising is full of examples of women one upping men, or presenting us as a bunch of goobers who can't take care of ourselves. This is to say nothing of entire TV shows like "The View" which on the occasions I've listened to it, seem like the entire show revolves around bashing men.

The point is, it goes back and forth, and it's time to grow up both seriously, and in a not-so-serious context.

When it comes to the side issue of children and elderly gamers, the issue isn't so much the gamers themselves, but the way that the industry caters to them. If we were seeing parallel game development, with titles being released both for a serious crowd, and for the more casual, less-involved crowd it wouldn't be a problem. A lot of the bile comes from the fact that almost all games are being developed to try and appeal to as wide a group of people as possible. There are some game types that just don't work well with casual play.

See, over simplication is fine to an extent, I mean everyon has to start somewhere. There is a point at which people want to get "serious" about gaming, or are ready to move beyond the introductory level. When your seeing nothing but games that are designed to be approachable and playable by anyone who wants to put in time irregardless of skill level, that's very annoying.

If the industry was to produce enough serious games, beyond the basic, casual, introductory level for those who want to play on a higher level, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is when all games are being made into casual games.

I don't begrudge the casual players their Wii toys, Angry Birds, and other games. Heck, I can see the point of having things like introdouctory level RPGs and the like the "Legends Of Heroes" series for the PSP. The problem is when this is all you see, and depth is stripped away from games so as not to be intimidating to that audience.

Want to end the bad blood there, the industry needs to develop for both crowds. However as serious gamers are both outnumbered, and have higher standards at the moment, we're not as profitable a target audience. We're profitable, but everyone wnats to go after the most monsterous profits possible, and that means trying to target the largest audience possible, which means dumbing everything down to the point where the games are increasingly unsatisfying to serious game players.

None of that has much to do with the issue of women's rights though.

The bottom line is that the complaints you see by "feminists" are quite simply stupid. They are just as ridiculous as if I was to complain about the potrayal of men on TV when they get one upped by women, or negatively stereotyped. It's just that women are taken seriously here, and guys aren't. Personally I see it as a non-factor, since it's usually kind of funny, and I'd like to think we can all laugh at ourselves or appreciate even cutting humor directed at us from time to time.

We also get complaints about things like the idealized physical portrayal of women in works of fantasy, which includes video games. A stupid arguement when you consider that female artists, or heck artists in general, tend to produce idealized specimins of whatever gender they are drawing when it comes to things like epic fantasy artwork. Women with breasts as big as their head, are no worse than guys with biceps as big around as their head. It's just that you hear feminists screaming from the rooftops for attention about what is a non-issue to everyone else including most women. With the male version you still here the idiots, but it usually winds up getting confined to dicussions on things like steroid abuse. Both groups want attention, feminists have a bigger platform though. Feminists claim it sends a bad message to girls, and encourages unhealthy behaviors in those who weren't lucky enough to win the genetic lottery. The male side claims that the big arms and rippling muscles send a bad message to young boys who turn to things like steroids to match the image of what a man, an athlete in paticular, should be like. I think the majority of people just wish they would all shut up and learn to seperate fantasy from reality, and realize that kids have been dealing with fantasy since before any of us were born and seeing the same kind of artwork on a video screen isn't any worse than seeing it anywhere else... going back to the ancient greeks with their statues.

I don't hate women, I don't think they are inferior, I do however think feminists need to grow up, and the media needs to learn to tell a lot of them to just put a sock in it instead of giving them a platform to rabble rouse and cause trouble. Things like the "cheaper than your girlfriend" ad are only a big deal because someone saw an oppertunity to get some attention, and the media decided to give it to her... and that's why I think so many people are kind of nasty about it. It's trivial and stupid.

I'm more concerned with the plight of women in places like The Middle East, where the media has covered them being forced to marry their rapists, and even being stoned to death despite the intercession of woman's rights groups. When I see people acting like that sign is some kind of big deal, when it's just being turned into an attention getting exercise, it tends to seriously annoy me.


Thanks if you managed to read this far... this is simply my take on things, agree or disagree.

 

[Ice Car]

Can you find me a better instance? It's not the matter of being against "feminism" or people against sexist stuff, but the times it happens. That one poster was nothing and people should get over it. It may be sexist, but it's one damn poster and they're making a big deal out of it. Plus it's more humorous than anything.