Why are people so quick to defend drinking? (rape thread offshoot)

[The Funslinger]

Okay, I didn't want to jump into any of the (three?) current drunken rape threads, but this issue seemed like it deserved more attention.

Why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse? A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners. Given the context, this is assumed to be a person who cares a lot about who their sexual partners are, and are willing to define it as rape if they drunkenly consent to sex with someone they wouldn't otherwise.

Putting aside the rape issue, why is alcohol getting such a free ride? It is a drug, and a pretty damned nasty one at that. I understand people like it. Hell, I like it. But I also know that it is dangerous, and bad for me. I do stupid things when drunk, I know that before I drink it.

I'm very libertarian when it comes to drugs. I have no issue with people being allowed to drink. But why are people so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice? If you go out and get drunk to the extent that you can't make good decisions, then you have abused a mind altering drug to quite a severe degree. Why are so many people willing to give such behaviour a free pass? Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

To put it simply. If you take enough of a recreational drug that it would make you agree to have sex with someone you didn't want to (regardless of whether it actually happens), shouldn't that be a bad thing? Something we should discourage, rather than rush to avoid such people feeling like they did anything wrong?

Disclaimer: Again, I drink, I like drinking, and I judge no one for getting drunk. Nor do I think rape victims should feel in any way like they are at fault. This is a question about the degree to which alcohol abuse is defended, that is easily contextualised by referencing the recent rape threads.

I agree with the disclaimer. Given the choice between a world where people have to deal with the consequences of what they chose to do drunk, thereby being gently encouraged to know their limit; and a world where you could be arrested due to a onetime sexual partner refusing to take responsibility for his/her inebriation, I think option A is the less freedom crushing.

An example of what I do not agree with, though: A friend of mine was in a relationship with a less than stellar guy a while back. He kept nagging her to suck him off, and she refused. During a party, he pushed a lot of drinks on her, being quite controlling about the whole thing. Then he made her give him a blowjob. I was willing to give her this one, because hey, it sounded like a dick move. I was justly less sympathetic when it happened with a different guy some time later. My response was essentially "you know what you're likely to do, and yet you still walk into that trap?"

 

[The Funslinger]

Because I like to drink and I'm tired of the faux-intellectual, over-sensitive, nosy types sneering at folks like me that AREN'T puritanical hermits.

Screw my more polite attempt at explaining my views, I like what this guy said.

 

[Dogstile]

People are always so quick to defend it because its something they happen to enjoy doing and people implying I drink because i'm a rapist pisses me off.

Don't you get pissed off when people say you're violent and unstable because you play games? Same fucking thing, is it not?

 

[Craorach]

People are always so quick to defend it because its something they happen to enjoy doing and people implying I drink because i'm a rapist pisses me off.

Don't you get pissed off when people say you're violent and unstable because you play games? Same fucking thing, is it not?

No, not the same thing at all. Because games aren't an actual physical drug that inevitably affect every person who uses them.

Look, I don't drink, I never have, don't like the taste of the affect on me. But I accept that people can drink in moderation and be enjoyable to be around.

Defend people's right to drink alcohol all you like, I will too. Don't defend people who drink to the point they are "no longer in control" nor their actions.

 

[weker]

No, not the same thing at all. Because games aren't an actual physical drug that inevitably affect every person who uses them.

No but games have been record to affect peoples psychology and personality permanently, which doesn't bode well for them.

What I am getting at is it is a fairly similar comparison, as they both are recorded to effect modes, and both are very dependent on the person. I don't want to live in a world where I can't do something because a select few people can't handle or don't understand something, and that is my guess why so many people are ready to defend drinking and games.

 

[Craorach]

No, not the same thing at all. Because games aren't an actual physical drug that inevitably affect every person who uses them.

No but games have been record to affect peoples psychology and personality permanently, which doesn't bode well for them.

What I am getting at is it is a fairly similar comparison, as they both are recorded to effect modes, and both are very dependent on the person. I don't want to live in a world where I can't do something because a select few people can't handle or don't understand something, and that is my guess why so many people are ready to defend drinking and games.

No, sorry, they are completely and utterly different.

Alcohol is an actual drug, which affects every single person that ever drinks it, directly and without exception. Some people can handle this drug better than others, but nobody is not affected by it at all.

Games have yet to be, by independent research not funded by either party, found to be a causal influence on people's behaviour. The most that I've seen independent research confirm is that... in essence... aggressive people tend to play violent games. Also there was some research that suggests that high stress or excitement moments in games have similar affects to the same in other pastimes, such as sports or even work.

Alcohol and games are no more similar than alcohol and watching a movie, or reading a book.

One is an actual drug, the other is not, it is as simple as that.

 

[Jinx_Dragon]

I'm quick to defend personal choice.

I will admit a lot of people who make the choice to drink tend not to be making the wisest decision in their lives. However, it is theirs to make and I will not take away what is our only true ownership: Our own bodies. Hence I will always defend your ability to make this choice, even if I feel it is a stupid one to even be contemplating.

PS: My body reacts violently to alcohol, likely a psychological reaction from having an abusive alcoholic father but still a reaction.

 

[CrashTest]

A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners.

If it looks like a strawman....

Come now, that's not the gist of these threads.

Besides, if you're "libertarian" about drugs, then you should be rushing to the defense of their right to do this.

The inherent problem with this sort of argument is that a lot of the argument comes down to the issue of "two wrongs make a right." And I'm sorry, but you seem to be coming down on the side that two wrongs do make a right. At least, that's what I get based on your attack on a caricature of the other side. The problem that people have isn't that drinking too much is right. However, once you're there, further compounding that someone did wrong by justifying someone else doing something wrong doesn't justify the second act.

People shouldn't drink too much. People also shouldn't screw people who can't make rational decisions, regardless of why they're there. That's what people by and large have been saying, and no, it's not a cart blanche defense of alcohol abuse.

I seriously wonder if all the folks using the "she shouldn't have got drunk" excuse understand how much it sounds like "she shouldn't have dressed like that" under the broader blanket of "hey! She was akin' for it!"

You know, my personal views on drugs and alcohol are pretty harsh, and while I don't go out of my way to enforce them on people, I do not look highly upon the consumption of any of them and even less so in excess. And I still don't think that someone who is intoxicated in any way validates sex with them in such a state.

Sorry if you don't take issue with that, but I can see only two reasons you would address the issue in such a false way: either you are one of the people supporting it, or you legitimately do not understand what people are saying and are ranting from a position of ignorance. I gave you enough credit to assume the former for the sake of argument, but in the end, it's hard to tell why someone comes up with such spurious claims. It does, however, generally boil down to malice or ignorance.

I do take great issue with the argument that two wrongs make a right (or more specifically, two wrongs make it okay). You know, the actual issue most people were discussing.

Okay... I Don't have a lot of time, I'll be back on later, but I have to respond to this quickly. Here is the poster (I found it again): http://feministing.com/2011/12/07/pa-liquor-control-board-to-teens-rape-is-your-fault-and-your-friends-fault/

Girl, on floor, couldn't say no, alcohol was the reason. The article is about how it wasn't her fault. I'm NOT saying it isn't the rapists fault, OR that the rape was her fault, but its hardly a strawman to say that this sort of behaviour is being defended.

A young girl, too drunk to look after herself, without her friends, is a BAD thing REGARDLESS of what happened to her. It should be discouraged, not defended. Emphasis on discouraged, not prohibited.

I sort of lost track of what you were implying my intentions/opinion was, but there is the argument I'm attacking. It is not a strawman. I don't want that particular example being too focused on or the thread'll go down the rape line again.

 

[similar.squirrel]

I can't give an informed opinion here because I am drunk never drank alcohol in a social occasion while not being surrounded by my family.

Why did you state that fact instead of giving the thread a miss altogether?

I really don't know why people defend alcohol abuse.Haven't really seen it happen here; to the contrary, I've read quite a few posts [usually from people of a weabooish disposition] disparging it and other substances usually linked to a normal social life.
Taking any fun substance to excess will most likely hinder somebody else's enjoyment of them down the line, and is therefore a dickish thing to do or condone. I'd be inclined to go with the opinion posted very early on in the thread that got the poster a warning, although I would probably have phrased it a little more tactfully.

 

[AlouiciousKF]

If the honest response to "drunk sex=rape" for some of you people is honestly "Well, they shouldn't be in that situation in the first place!", then you are probably incredibly ignorant, or have some issues yourself.

Here's a hint: Why is it the woman's fault a man had sex with her while she was intoxicated? Why is the onus never on the man to look at himself and say "Oh, shit, she's drunk. Maybe I shouldn't do this?"

Why is it the man's fault a woman had sex with him while drunk and regretted it later? We hold people accountable for their actions in every other department even when they are drunk. If I gambled away all my money at a casino, I wouldn't be able to get it back on the basis I was drunk would I? I just do not understand why things should be different just because it is sex.

Probably because sex is completely different from both of those things, and requires different considerations? Sex requires informed consent between two adults capable of giving said consent. I honestly don't get why this is so hard to understand.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

It is very simple that the abuse of Alcohol is so deeply ingrained into certain cultures that people will refuse to admit that too much is a bad thing and that it is ok and a choice and not something to be frowned upon. Another reason is that its general usage is quite deeply ingrained in the world's culture in general. The intensity varies from place to place like Ireland has a massive binge drink culture while the French tend to be heavier smokers.

This is why people defend it.

I do not personally see the point in the usage of all stuff like this that damages your health after prolonged heavy abuse but people know enough nowadays to make informed decisions about stuff like this. So in that way I can see where the drunken sex is not rape are coming from. Although on the other side whether or not it is rape depends on the person and how much they have had, tolerances, how they got so drunk and other reasons stuff like this is not clear cut.

Stuff like if they were slipped an extra shot of vodka every drink(I know it is noticeable but still) makes it a grey area and it is not the black and white issue this forum has made it out to be.

So no for the people who do it you probably aren't a rapist unless you could around looking for girls/boys who are completely fucking smashed/passed out/can't string a sentence together and the other group needs to realise not every case is or should be considered rape.

 

[weker]

No, sorry, they are completely and utterly different.

Alcohol is an actual drug, which affects every single person that ever drinks it, directly and without exception. Some people can handle this drug better than others, but nobody is not affected by it at all.

Games have yet to be, by independent research not funded by either party, found to be a causal influence on people's behaviour. The most that I've seen independent research confirm is that... in essence... aggressive people tend to play violent games. Also there was some research that suggests that high stress or excitement moments in games have similar affects to the same in other pastimes, such as sports or even work.

Alcohol and games are no more similar than alcohol and watching a movie, or reading a book.

One is an actual drug, the other is not, it is as simple as that.

I am guessing your not seeing the irony here at all XD
But anyway, you don't seem to listen to the entire argument so I won't bother again

 

[Craorach]

I am guessing your not seeing the irony here at all XD
But anyway, you don't seem to listen to the entire argument so I won't bother again

I would absolutely love for you to explain to me the irony, or argument, in you comparing a physical drug to a form of entertainment, yeah.

You're not making any form of convincing argument for me to listen too. All you are saying is "you guys don't like it when people say video games are bad, you shouldn't say alcohol is bad, it's the same thing!" which is false, not an argument at all.

Show me one reliable scientific study which says that the effects of video games are as widespread and equal to those of alcohol.

 

[Dogstile]

People are always so quick to defend it because its something they happen to enjoy doing and people implying I drink because i'm a rapist pisses me off.

Don't you get pissed off when people say you're violent and unstable because you play games? Same fucking thing, is it not?

No, not the same thing at all. Because games aren't an actual physical drug that inevitably affect every person who uses them.

Look, I don't drink, I never have, don't like the taste of the Effect on me. But I accept that people can drink in moderation and be enjoyable to be around.

Defend people's right to drink alcohol all you like, I will too. Don't defend people who drink to the point they are "no longer in control" nor their actions.

I meant the reason i'm defending it. I am defending it for the same reason I get annoyed at people calling gamers violent youths, its not correct and I know this because I happen to play games.

I will never defend people who drink until they can't control themselves, however most people who claim that drinking turns me into some thundering prick who goes out, fights everyone and ends the night with a hearty dose of rape or sexual assault don't seem to realise that no, most of us don't drink until we get to that point.

(Oh I have missed a good topic that I can use the words thundering and prick next to eachother )

 

[Craorach]

I meant the reason i'm defending it. I am defending it for the same reason I get annoyed at people calling gamers violent youths, its not correct and I know this because I happen to play games.

I will never defend people who drink until they can't control themselves, however most people who claim that drinking turns me into some thundering prick who goes out, fights everyone and ends the night with a hearty dose of rape or sexual assault don't seem to realise that no, most of us don't drink until we get to that point.

(Oh I have missed a good topic that I can use the words thundering and prick next to eachother )

I can respect that, as I said before.. I'll defend people's right to drink myself... much as I do not generally like being around them while they are.

What I have a problem with is people who think that saying "don't drink to excess, don't do dangerous things while drunk, accept responsibility for the things you do do when drunk" means we're saying "Nobody should ever drink, ban it!"

That's not what the sensible amongst us are saying, not at all. Enjoy a drink all you like, but remember that even one will affect your judgement and abilities.

 

[Vegosiux]

Are we talking about drinking as in "Having a beer with friends twice a week", or are we talking about drinking as in "Getting hammered partying every evening"?

Because the former is defended quite easily, the latter is...well, a bit more delicate.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

blaming everything on booze distracts from the real issue and provides an easy scapegoat to the regretful.

it's a factor, sure, but most often not a cause.

besides, the reason people defend drinking is because, like mentioned earlier, they like drinking, it's a way of cutting loose, to relax and have fun.
Would you not defend one of your preffered past-times?

 

[BoTTeNBReKeR]

Why do people defend alcohol? Because a few rotten apples shouldn't spoil the bunch.

We all get confronted with alcohol abuse at some point in our life. From something "innocent" like you or someone you know getting completely hammered at a party to something more severe such as a car accident with a drunk driver.

You must however realise that everytime you hear or see something like that there are thousands of other consuming alcohol without making trouble.

The problem and danger of alcohol is always knowing what your body can take. Also, teenagers need to learn that you don't have to follow your buddies if you don't want to. There isn't any shame in not drinking the same amount as your buddies, no matter what they might say.

 

[Signa]

3. People who agree to have sex while drunk should not be considered rape victims (I really feel like I should carry around a pre-recording of that). All it does is give women a way to blame men for their mistakes, and devalues legitimate rape cases by

Yeah, about that... I was telling a friend about the ample rape threads here, and he told me this wonderful story about this guy he knew that dated a girl for 3 years, had her cheat on him, and then declare that he raped her so that she wouldn't have to break up with him for the new guy. He's in jail now for just dating his girlfriend.

And I got called "despicable" on this site for asserting the same as you; saying that real rape is being devalued by all this drunken "rape" talk.

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

... Cannabis is being bunched with cocaine now? I'm sorry I can't take you seriously after this, do you know any really heavy pot smokers? Have you ever smoked it? do you know anyone who does cocaine? BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

When someone is REALLY high, they're usually more interested in finding snack food or contemplating the grass, than anything else. I've never in my life seen anyone violent or outrageous in any majorly identifiable way when high(usually they just move slower laugh like an idiot way more, and sometimes ramble on about shit for no damn reason, which I've been known to do when totally sober)... Cocaine on the other hand is a totally different ballpark there, I won't even go into it.

Alcohol can be bad, but then again, if you've ever hit a point in your life when your very soul is hurting, a bit o booze and companionship with other likeminded individuals can save your ass, I know, I know it can be a slippery slope, but alcohol has actually saved my life on more occasions than it's damaged it, I use it as a substance to step back from the shit I go through in life, so I can face it with a clearer head later, not to forget my troubles and make them go away(which is dangerously unhealthy).

Then again, I've never had sex drunk, only sober. I've never needed it to get a girl in bed, why the hell would I, I'm generally a great guy to be around and that seems to be all I need. Booze might loosen me up a bit if I'm super tense or stressed I guess, but I'm never lookin for anyone when I'm like that anyway.

And on the rape end of things, I've known guys who've been charged with rape quite wrongfully, they were the victim, you ever seen a guy try and resist a super, super agressive woman when he's almost completely tanked?(doesn't work too well) But the legal system fucked them over pretty bad, it works both ways. And neither side of the coin is a nice one. Rape is wrong, but having sex while intoxicated HAPPENS, and if it's mutual rather than one party doin all the advancing I don't see how rape enters the picture, both parties want it, one regrets it, rape charges follow, mean spiritedness all around, I say "Fuck! We all make mistakes", and sometimes, SOMETIMES, it would be nice to see people see it as what it is, and not take the oppertunity to completely destroy someone elses life over it.