Why are people so quick to defend drinking? (rape thread offshoot)

[anthony87]

I'm not sure about anyone else but I'm quick to defend drinking because so many of the high-horsers on these forums seem to think that if you drink(or smoke for that matter)then you are the devil, evil, ignorant of those around you and so many other self-righteous things that come from people, all the while I can't help but think they don't have any actual or very little experience with what they are criticizing.

As for the rape threads, I was defending drinking because loads of people were basically saying that any volume of alcohol will impede ones ability to make a decision. One guy even said something along the lines of "If a girl takes even a single drink then her judgement is impaired and she can not give consent with regards to anything" and that right there is some grade-A bullshit. Again, most likely coming from a person who most likely has little to no experience with alcohol.

 

[anthony87]

Because I like to drink and I'm tired of the faux-intellectual, over-sensitive, nosy types sneering at folks like me that AREN'T puritanical hermits.

I....I love this response.....that's enough to avoid a low content warning right?

 

[lostlevel]

I defend drinking because I'm drunk now and will be again,
just because you drink or don't doesn't make you a better or worse person.
as for the other threads I've not seen them and they sound too heavy for Christmas

 

[Dogstile]

I meant the reason i'm defending it. I am defending it for the same reason I get annoyed at people calling gamers violent youths, its not correct and I know this because I happen to play games.

I will never defend people who drink until they can't control themselves, however most people who claim that drinking turns me into some thundering prick who goes out, fights everyone and ends the night with a hearty dose of rape or sexual assault don't seem to realise that no, most of us don't drink until we get to that point.

(Oh I have missed a good topic that I can use the words thundering and prick next to eachother )

I can respect that, as I said before.. I'll defend people's right to drink myself... much as I do not generally like being around them while they are.

What I have a problem with is people who think that saying "don't drink to excess, don't do dangerous things while drunk, accept responsibility for the things you do do when drunk" means we're saying "Nobody should ever drink, ban it!"

That's not what the sensible amongst us are saying, not at all. Enjoy a drink all you like, but remember that even one will affect your judgement and abilities.

Oh right, we're not talking about eachother's views at all sir. Please, have a good day, I have no quarrel with you.

Merry Christmas from England!

 

[BRex21]

At the moment i am fairly intoxicated, i've had a few fingers of Scotch have a wonderful little buzz going on, however I am in complete control of myself because I drink responsibly.
People who don't are usually socially acceptable because "we have all been there" personally i think its pretty sick to let people get away with their behaviour simply because we are drunk. Besides we have no idea how to enforce crimes when alcohol is involved; You cant form intent for murder while drunk, unless you do in in a car, because intoxication isn't a factor for vehicular homicide. Essentially if you want to kill someone get drunk first and you can get away with it. HOWEVER mind altering prescription medication which you HAVE to take does not have nearly as much opportunity to form a defence. I really wish people were held accountable for the actions they take even if those actions are the result of something they chose to put in their body.
But anyway i just looked over to see if the videos were working yet not to get all preachy, so i think i will turn in, as i have a long drive tomorrow.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

They defend it because it's a vice. They feel they're undermining themselves unless they justify it.

Those that don't are doing it for a moral high ground, as ironic as it is to defend someone acting irresponsibly and getting into a bad situation as a result as a moral decision.

In the interest of fairness, I do in fact not drink, or use any kind of drugs, but I don't because of the potential harm it could cause; I'm a person of indulgence. I go for what I like as often as I can handle, much of the time. But I also I heavily value taking responsibility for one's actions, and when one's rationality and decision making are muddled, it not only makes it harder to make an informed, responsible decision, it also makes one less likely to want to take responsibility for what they did while in that state.

I don't know what kind of drunk I am, but I never want to find out, because even though not everyone is a destructive drunk, and not even I necessarily am, I don't want to risk whatever harm I could cause. Which isn't in no way to say I'm perfectly harmless otherwise, but at least I'm completely in control of my actions when not under the influence.

The point behind this is that people who are unruly, irrational, or irresponsible drunks, or feel they're in danger of becoming such, need to stay away from the bottle, period. If they feel they'll implode if they can't do that much, they need to do it in a safe, controlled environment. When you don't, you've made the first irresponsible decision; whatever you do to yourself or others under the influence then becomes your fault as much as anyone else's.

 

[CrashTest]

Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

... Cannabis is being bunched with cocaine now? I'm sorry I can't take you seriously after this, do you know any really heavy pot smokers? Have you ever smoked it? do you know anyone who does cocaine? BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

Okay, at this point I'm going to stop questioning that I'm explaining myself clearly and start assuming that people aren't actually reading my posts. I 'bunched' cannabis and cocaine together because they're both illegal drugs, as opposed to alcohol - a legal drug. I didn't criticise either of them, just argued that people who defend people's rights to get smashed on alcohol aren't so forgiving of other substance abuse.

Also, to several others, I stated in the first paragraph of the thread that this was about getting drunk to the point of being unable to make good decisions, NOT a couple of drinks. Nor is it a question of alcohol making some people violent. No one, to my knowledge is defending people who are violent when drunk.

This is entirely an issue of people leaping to defend (in the example I've given) a young girl's right to go out and lose all ability to think/ stand up. More generally, the issue of socially encouraging the misuse of a harmful drug.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Okay, I didn't want to jump into any of the (three?) current drunken rape threads, but this issue seemed like it deserved more attention.

Why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse? A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners. Given the context, this is assumed to be a person who cares a lot about who their sexual partners are, and are willing to define it as rape if they drunkenly consent to sex with someone they wouldn't otherwise.

Putting aside the rape issue, why is alcohol getting such a free ride? It is a drug, and a pretty damned nasty one at that. I understand people like it. Hell, I like it. But I also know that it is dangerous, and bad for me. I do stupid things when drunk, I know that before I drink it.

I'm very libertarian when it comes to drugs. I have no issue with people being allowed to drink. But why are people so quick to defend it as a lifestyle choice? If you go out and get drunk to the extent that you can't make good decisions, then you have abused a mind altering drug to quite a severe degree. Why are so many people willing to give such behaviour a free pass? Would you defend the rights of cannabis or cocaine users to get themselves completely off their heads in public?

To put it simply. If you take enough of a recreational drug that it would make you agree to have sex with someone you didn't want to (regardless of whether it actually happens), shouldn't that be a bad thing? Something we should discourage, rather than rush to avoid such people feeling like they did anything wrong?

Disclaimer: Again, I drink, I like drinking, and I judge no one for getting drunk. Nor do I think rape victims should feel in any way like they are at fault. This is a question about the degree to which alcohol abuse is defended, that is easily contextualised by referencing the recent rape threads.

Well, my guess is the cultural scarring of the prohibition times and all the crap that happened along side it. At least here in America. Banning it seemed worse than having it, and a bunch of fallout is still with us today; therefore, booze must be good (because without = bad, with must = good). Not really logic, but it passes amazingly easily for it at parties.

 

[spartan231490]

Why are people so willing to blame the alcohol, and not the people who decided to drink it? Seriously, in no situation is it the fault of alcohol, it is always you're fault. You are a human being, and it is always your choice.

Therefore, I propose that the proper title for this thread is "why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse"

OT: because people who drink don't generally say "I'm going to get so shit-faced that I can't control myself and pass out in my own vomit" They drank on an empty stomach without realizing(done that one myself), or the liqueur they drank was a higher proof than they thought, or they lose count of their drinks.

People don't generally defend people who get that drunk intentionally, but the people who go out every weekend are going to get that drunk when they don't intend to a couple times a year. You have to remember, alcohol tolerance is very variable. It can change day to day, and you end up overestimating your limit.

 

[CrashTest]

Why are people so willing to blame the alcohol, and not the people who decided to drink it? Seriously, in no situation is it the fault of alcohol, it is always you're fault. You are a human being, and it is always your choice.

Therefore, I propose that the proper title for this thread is "why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse"

Seriously? The title is "Why are people so quick to defend drinking?" As in, a verb... done by people.

 

[jyork89]

Put simply, alcohol is tolerated because society chooses to tolerate it. We live in a democracy after all. Democracy often does not work by logic, but it should work by freedom of the majority to conform. No one makes anyone drink it.

As a occasional drinker myself, it irritates me greatly when people make these superior sounding arguments about how bad alcohol is. Most drinkers are not stupid. We weigh the risks vs benefits and choose that a buzz from alcohol justifies a mild hangover. Furthermore, laws are in place, and strictly enforced to prevent people who are drunk to harm others.

In terms of rape, everyone has the right to do what they want without being harmed by others, as long as they do not harm others. It doesn't matter what the woman is doing. She has a right to not be raped. Just like anyone who is drunk has an obligation not to drive, beat up their wife or vomit on my car.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Why are people so quick to defend alcohol abuse? A big issue that keeps coming up in the rape threads seems to be that a girl (person) should be allowed to drink alcohol to the extent that they can't make an informed decision about their sexual partners.

In order to answer your question I simply pose a counter question: Why is it, at any point, my responsibility to help someone make a decision about when they've had enough to drink? In the case of someone drinking to the point of being taken advantage of sexually (I'm not prepared to call beer goggles rape for the record), I find that there are only a few circumstances in which I have any real stake in the matter and thus would see any reason to interject:

1) I am, personally, the one engaged in heavy drinking
2) I know and personally care for the person engaging in heavy drinking
3) I plan on taking advantage of someone currently engaged in heavy drinking

People know the risks. They've been told the risks a thousand times. It is not not my job, my responsibility nor even my hobby to play chaperone to strangers. If something terrible happens because of someone's poor decisions, if they do not fall into one of the categories above, chances are good it wouldn't even bother me. There is a lot of misfortune vying for my attention in the world. My time and resources are limited. So, I guess in an example of my failings as a decent human being, I choose to focus my efforts towards the people I care about rather than the people I don't know.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I'm not sure about anyone else but I'm quick to defend drinking because so many of the high-horsers on these forums seem to think that if you drink(or smoke for that matter)then you are the devil, evil, ignorant of those around you and so many other self-righteous things that come from people, all the while I can't help but think they don't have any actual or very little experience with what they are criticizing.

As for the rape threads, I was defending drinking because loads of people were basically saying that any volume of alcohol will impede ones ability to make a decision. One guy even said something along the lines of "If a girl takes even a single drink then her judgement is impaired and she can not give consent with regards to anything" and that right there is some grade-A bullshit. Again, most likely coming from a person who most likely has little to no experience with alcohol.

I'm going to second this. I've done a lot of drinking in my life. For a short period while in the Army, I was teetering on the precipice of a severe problem in fact. But, across hundreds of nights where I've consumed variable levels of alcohol, there was only once where I felt as though I was not in control of my actions.

Every other night save one, every stupid thing I did was my choice. It wasn't the alcohol that made me do it. All that booze provided was an excuse.

And that one time I wasn't in control? I literally have a blackout period where I was awake and moving that I simply do not recall. To reach that point I had to pour something like 25 or 30 drinks into my 135 pound frame. And, for the record, that very evening is the reason that I stopped drinking entirely.

Yes, you can reach a point where you are incapable of making a decision. But to reach that point took (in my experience) drinking to the point of pleasant drunk. Drinking to the point of illness. And drinking beyond getting violently ill. It took a long chain of bad decisions to reach that blackout. Sure, once I reached that point I did some stupid things that I had no control over but given how many times I had to turn back before then, I feel I was given plenty of chances to correct the course. I'm just lucky that all I did was get in a rolling fist fight instead but that said had something worse happened I would have had it coming.

 

[Latman2k]

Alright...

3. People who agree to have sex while drunk should not be considered rape victims (I really feel like I should carry around a pre-recording of that). All it does is give women a way to blame men for their mistakes, and devalues legitimate rape cases by making rape look like something women call just for the fun of it.

4. As someone said on one of the other threads (I'm paraphrasing): "A guy and a girl, both drunk, have sex. One is a rapist, and the other is a victim. Yeah... that seems fair..."

Thats true in the U.S. if a man and a woman get drunk and have sex, the man is guilty of rape. If either party is sober, they are the ones guilty of rape.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

In my opinion, if you choose to destroy your ability to make judgement, you get to deal with the full consequences of that decision. If that means having to deal with the knowledge that you had sex with someone you wouldn't have ordinarily had sex with, that's your problem.

Personally, I'm a bit of a control freak, so I choose not to indulge in judgement impairing substances. I don't want to deal with the consequences, so I don't do it.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

theres a saying in latin for that, In vino veritas it to translates, ?in wine [there is the] truth".

Hans Christian Andersen said that the truth is to be heard from drunks and children (The Emperor's new clothes).

 

[CrashTest]

In order to answer your question I simply pose a counter question: Why is it, at any point, my responsibility to help someone make a decision about when they've had enough to drink? In the case of someone drinking to the point of being taken advantage of sexually (I'm not prepared to call beer goggles rape for the record), I find that there are only a few circumstances in which I have any real stake in the matter and thus would see any reason to interject:

1) I am, personally, the one engaged in heavy drinking
2) I know and personally care for the person engaging in heavy drinking
3) I plan on taking advantage of someone currently engaged in heavy drinking

People know the risks. They've been told the risks a thousand times. It is not not my job, my responsibility nor even my hobby to play chaperone to strangers. If something terrible happens because of someone's poor decisions, if they do not fall into one of the categories above, chances are good it wouldn't even bother me. There is a lot of misfortune vying for my attention in the world. My time and resources are limited. So, I guess in an example of my failings as a decent human being, I choose to focus my efforts towards the people I care about rather than the people I don't know.

Well I guess the simple response is that you've taken the time to write two medium length posts in defense of drinking, so your time is hardly limited, and when you choose to use it in this context, you sided with drinking.

More generally, there are plenty of anti-drug campaigns. Drugs aren't allowed to be sold, bought etc., there are advertising limits on tobacco way beyond alcohol. I don't know about the US, but we certainly don't have the same kind of health warnings on alcohol that we do on cigarettes here.

Society DOES take time to discourage other drugs. In the case of the rape poster, and people on this thread, people will actually take time to defend alcohol. This is not a case of 'it isn't my problem', its a case of people actively defending, or at least actively ignoring, the problems associated with alcohol.

 

[The .50 Caliber Cow]

Because I like to drink and I'm tired of the faux-intellectual, over-sensitive, nosy types sneering at folks like me that AREN'T puritanical hermits.

I love this comment. This is why I defend drinking. I enjoy it.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Well I guess the simple response is that you've taken the time to write two medium length posts in defense of drinking, so your time is hardly limited, and when you choose to use it in this context, you sided with drinking.

More generally, there are plenty of anti-drug campaigns. Drugs aren't allowed to be sold, bought etc., there are advertising limits on tobacco way beyond alcohol. I don't know about the US, but we certainly don't have the same kind of health warnings on alcohol that we do on cigarettes here.

Society DOES take time to discourage other drugs. In the case of the rape poster, and people on this thread, people will actually take time to defend alcohol. This is not a case of 'it isn't my problem', its a case of people actively defending, or at least actively ignoring, the problems associated with alcohol.

The difference between alcohol and other drugs is that alcohol can be consumed without being effected by it and still be enjoyed, not a whole lot other drugs have it that way.

 

[Terminal Blue]

In response to all the "I've never lost control while drunk" comments.

Even the most horrendous alcoholic would generally say the same thing, not because it's true but because alcohol impairs memory. When drunk you ignore things you would pay close attention to while sober, things like other people's moods or emotions, or which route home you should take

This is why people in the early stages of drinking problems tend to feel that everyone around them is getting to them about drinking or is just being uptight or trying to spoil their fun, because they don't actually fully remember how fucking horrible they are while drunk.

Any respectable source of advice on alcohol abuse will tell you that you can't fully trust yourself to know when you did or didn't lose control or when you were or weren't a dick. The first you will generally know about your drinking problem is when someone else tries to tell you, and one of the biggest problems people have is the tendency to ignore what other people are saying and to feel that they had everything in hand.

I see a lot of talk about taking responsibility here, and I agree, but every person I know who has had or developed a drinking problem felt they were taking responsibility right up until the people they cared about were thoroughly sick of them and walked out. Taking responsibility means acknowledging that alcohol affects you, you can minimize and almost eliminate any potential problems by drinking sensibly, but you cannot claim to be able to drink in anything but extreme moderation and never to lose control. There are different degrees of losing control and in rape the degree which makes a difference between you being a rapist or not can be very, very fine.