Why are we afraid of criticism?

[BloatedGuppy]

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

People have been insulted for their artistic choices since people began making artistic choices. If they choose to self-censor in response to criticism the responsibility for that lies entirely with them. It's called having volition.

Honestly whining about feeling "forced" into self-censorship has to be one of the leading candidates for the boo-hoo Olympics in the history of the world, up with the woman who called 911 because Burger King wouldn't prepare her hamburger the way she wanted it. It's called "self" censorship because it was voluntary.

If you're this concerned about the concept, you should cease to criticize those who are criticizing media. What if they felt shamed by your criticism, and self-censored themselves into silence? Oh the vicious cycle you'd have birthed! Oh the humanity!

 

[Techno Squidgy]

That's part of the problem. You see it on the Twitter of people with higher profiles like MovieBob who seem to think they are 'moral' (Criticism =/= 'demonization', just throwing that out there) and you see it from random internet trolls. Social media is dehumanizing. That's why i don't use it that much. It's problem with the internet at large, people trying to spin the 'gamers are ultra-abusive' narrative for their own gains was just stupid. Yes we need to be aware of it and fight it, that's always been the case. Saying 'online abuse is bad' is like saying 'kicking puppies is bad'. Most people know this.

I think some people or personalities seem to think ALL criticism is abuse. If you can't take a level of legitimate disagreement and push-back then you shouldn't be a vocal public figure, i think that's the case. As we've seen in the past few days criticism is fine. Gaming can stand up to criticism. But many in positions of influence seem to want to insulate themselves from all dissenting voices. That's why people get angry at 'Literally Who' or some of these arrogant site editors.

If you're going to be loud, belligerent and confrontational online you need to be prepared for people to disagree with you. If you call all gamers Misogynists or suggest gaming is systemically harmful then you're going to get very loud disagreement. That ISN'T abuse. I think some people need to learn to actually take real criticism. Because the gaming community sure as shit gets it rained down on them pretty often.

No one should use accusations of abuse as a shield against any form of criticism. No one. You can't just double-down on your position and try to silence them and expect people to not be annoyed.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that anyone "should use accusations of abuse as a shield against any form of criticism". I'm simply asking us to be more vigilant in stopping those that actually are being abusive. The people who are sending rape and death threats. You're right, "Internet Culture" is a big part of it, but there's no reason we should stand for it. Are we not part of internet culture? Should we not try and raise the bar a little? These people are preventing proper, civil discourse from taking place and their actions are having negative repercussions not only on the people they're abusing, but on us a whole as well.

Personally, I'm not aware of any people who think criticism is abuse, but then again, I don't follow these things all too closely. I think part of it is a lot of people write in a very emotionally charged manner when communicating online. This doesn't do us any good, because you end up with a lot of reactions, but not much actual thinking going on.

Basically, I'd like people to calm down a bit, come at these things with an open mind, and try to speak as a voice of reason. I'd also like to see less people deliberately stirring up emotions or especially people who actively try to undermine discussion.

[small]Captcha:"Without a doubt". Not at all dear Captcha, doubt everything. Even me. Especially me. [/small]

 

[Don Incognito]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/17/wildstar-to-reduce-character-breast-size/

what do you call that?

Oh did someone FORCE Carbine to do that, then? Did they break in and point guns at heads? Because I recall them doing that in response to community feedback.

Because if someone DID force them to do it, maybe they should have forced them to make a less shitty MMO in the process. That would've been a better use of everyone's time.

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

That is not what "censorship" means, period. I really don't understand what it is about you and Clever Name Here and that guy with House as his avatar that you can not grasp that simple concept.

That IS NOT CENSORSHIP. PERIOD.

 

[QuietlyListening]

Question: Why is self-censorship a bad thing? We self-censor ourselves all the time. I might have the impulse to make a crass joke, but, not wishing to hurt people and appear like a dick, I refrain. I think it's a mistake to confuse self-censorship with some sort of imposed ban on speech and action. Also, for those in favor of changing the portrayal of minority groups but against self-censorship, what exactly is change supposed to look like then? You can't make people stop having offensive thoughts, but you can encourage people not to share them.

When it comes to racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry, why is shame considered to be a bad thing? Those kinds of actions are exactly the sorts of things that should be shamed. Those are the things that should be called out and rejected from the culture. Otherwise, I'm not sure how else you expect things to change.

 

[Terminal Blue]

well there seems to be enough women involed with gaming in japan to make their own games and have a genre aimed directly at them, otome games

Except Otome games are generally not made by women. They are made by teams of professionals, some of whom will almost certainly be women but most of whom will be men.

Part of the reason for this is that the Japanese labour market has particular problems in relation to female employment. Although the majority of women do work, the cultural expectation in Japan is generally that they will quit their jobs once they get married, which means women tend to be overrperesented in the lower echelons of industries where they have little creative control. This is why your motivational is actually ironic.

But actually, what we're actually talking in the case of Japan is exactly what you don't seem to want. It isn't that women in Japan went off one day and made their own games, it's that women are recognized as a marketing demographic by the Japanese games industry. Telling women to go and code games in their basements isn't really a solution to the problem, because that's not how anything works any more outside of the indiest of the indie sector.

 

[psijac]

Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?

Criticism is fine but pushing an agenda is not. Would you listen to a game critic whose only credentials is that is was an active member of the KLu Klux Klan? Did PETA's cooking Mama game criticism rock your gaming world?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That is not what "censorship" means, period. I really don't understand what it is about you and Clever Name Here and that guy with House as his avatar that you can not grasp that simple concept.

That IS NOT CENSORSHIP. PERIOD.

You are thinking of the formal, legal definition of censorship. He is referring to self-censorship:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/self-censorship

"Control of what you say or do in order to avoid annoying or offending others, but without being told officially that such control is necessary."

For instance, if you were at a girlfriend's house, and took pains not to curse in front of her parents, you would be "self-censoring" to meet the sensibilities of your "audience".

He's claiming that fear of public censure is forcing artists/game creators to deviate from their vision. That they are bullied by a politically correct mob into making changes they would never otherwise have made. As an example, he held up the reduction of breast sizes in Wildstar, a decision Carbine made after a significant amount of negative feedback was heard regarding the pneumatic, back breaking racks their characters were originally gifted with (notably, they are still somewhat ludicrous).

Keep in mind that Carbine does not represent a single artistic vision (indeed, the CEO of the company recently stepped down to attend to health issues, and cited "too many loud voices in the room" as an issue facing the developer), and that they have made a myriad of changes in response to player input, including scaling back their "hardcore" game model. This represents a far greater violation of the game's "vision" than the reduction of a pair of tits, but THAT, apparently, does not constitute "self censorship".

TLDR - "Self Censorship" is the new whine for why gaming is sacrosanct and above "a certain kind" of criticism. It's employed by people who have lost one too arguments when trying to imply actual censorship is at work or that "freedom of speech" is at stake.

Criticism is fine but pushing an agenda is not. Would you listen to a game critic whose only credentials is that is was an active member of the KLu Klux Klan? Did PETA's cooking Mama game criticism rock your gaming world?

People can have whatever agenda they want, and they can express it in their writing. If PETA wants to criticize Cooking Mama that's entirely their right, just as it's my right to decide whether or not that particular criticism of the game is relevant to me and my tastes.

Attempting to prevent people from having agendas or expressing them through criticism of media...that actually would be censorship. In the formal, legal sense.

 

[Erttheking]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/17/wildstar-to-reduce-character-breast-size/

what do you call that?

Oh did someone FORCE Carbine to do that, then? Did they break in and point guns at heads? Because I recall them doing that in response to community feedback.

Because if someone DID force them to do it, maybe they should have forced them to make a less shitty MMO in the process. That would've been a better use of everyone's time.

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

Ok I need to butt in here. I write fanfiction. I've built up a rather healthy fanbase of a thousand people give or take. From the Ashes, a Fallout/Mass Effect crossover, it's pretty popular. Got on the TV Tropes fanfic recommendation page.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8126014/1/From-the-Ashes

I have been criticized while writing this story. For many things. One of them was a person criticizing me for bringing religion into the story in that one of my main characters was a Catholic priest. Not only is he the only one who is openly religious, he is highly against forcing his views on other people, rarely brings his own views up, and is generally all about peace and love. I decided this person could go fuck himself.

Another person criticized me for writing all of my female characters far too masculine. She said that it wasn't an inherently bad thing, she even said I did quite a few of them very well, but that a story could get stale if every single character had the same general attitude. I thought about it for awhile, and I added some development to two of my female characters. One an adrenaline junkie tomboy (Who to be honest had been sorta girly in the first place) who was revealed to be the type of person who loves just kicking back and being girly, and the other a woman who had lived an isolated life in brutal condition for twenty years. I decided to explore the idea of her hesitantly experimenting with being more feminine, confused and a little embarrassed about it, before eventually become comfortable with it. She still mostly dresses and acts masculine, but she indulges in more feminine hobbies on special occasions. (Work in progress) I honestly feel like my characters have been improved by this change. Like it breathed some fresh life into them. You see, artistic vision seems great while you're writing, but it suffers from tunnel vision sometimes. I've lost track of the number of times I wrote something I thought was great and then looking back a year latter and saying "What the FUCK was I thinking?"

Moral of the story, if you want to be a writer, you need to strike a compromise. You need to look through criticism and be able to decide what criticism is garbage, and consider the criticism that could help improve the work. In fact, I've learned getting too attached to your artistic vision is a bad thing. You need to be flexible as you write, because what popped up in your head doesn't always make it into the paper. The sheer number of things I had to leave on the cutting room floor of my mind...you would not believe.

 

[Odbarc]

Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

To answer the topic question; People have become afraid of criticism because there's an entire generation that's been fed the idea that only positive remarks can be true and anything else is a form of bullying. It's no longer acceptable to be plain honest about something because if you're negative or perceived to be, you're cruel.

I think it started with Oprah (or continued and/or popularized by) where she goes about telling everyone that they are beautiful. It's at least the best idea I can recollect on the topic as an example at least.


Negative remarks are considered to be a bad persons perspective of something and makes that persons opinion obsolete rather than considered a perspective. Only positive remarks exist and it makes for everyone to be quite thin skinned and unable to tolerate, accept or deal with negative remarks any longer.

When you bring home a C+ report card, you "Did your best." versus "This is disappointing."
You come in between second and last place in a race, your congratulated on finishing or participating. It's not allowed to call it losing a race you've clearly otherwise lost.

So long as people aren't given the opportunity to deal with harsh or negative comments about themselves, they'll never be able to deal with or overcome their criticisms in a healthy manner.

 

[Vault101]

Criticism is fine but pushing an agenda is not. Would you listen to a game critic whose only credentials is that is was an active member of the KLu Klux Klan? Did PETA's cooking Mama game criticism rock your gaming world?

this isn't really helpful when you've got people slapping the "feminist" label on everyone and everything who argues a certain way

But actually, what we're actually talking in the case of Japan is exactly what you don't seem to want. It isn't that women in Japan went off one day and made their own games, it's that women are recognized as a marketing demographic by the Japanese games industry. Telling women to go and code games in their basements isn't really a solution to the problem, because that's not how anything works any more outside of the indiest of the indie sector.

but I thought it was the solution of everything!

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

you know maybe artists have their own ideas of what they do/don't want?

I think it started with Oprah (or continued and/or popularized by) where she goes about telling everyone that they are beautiful..

damn women....having self confidence and shit....


also I'm preeeeeeety sure the people rabidly defending their "gamez" are not within oprahs target demographic

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Says who? Those definitions don't say "an implicit meaning or moral, as in a work of art... that the artist intended" so you're doing nothing but making an assumption. Since it's fairly easy to communicate unintentionally via body language or slips of the tongue or any other mistake, I don't see why you seem to think the only form of communication is that which we intend.

whats stopping me from saying all your posts have the underlying message that im 100% right then?

as i showed you there is no such thing an unintentional comunication, there are MISUNDERSTANDING, but comunication is by definition a deliberate act

and i think thats the only type of comunication because thats the definition, that isnt even up to debate

So the future will hold my right to speak and criticize works of art at a higher standard? Gee that sounds great! After all, dealing with all these people trying to take away my freedom of speech for the purpose of coddling artists is getting rather annoying.

"maybe the future will hold freedom of speech at a higher standard than political correctness, we dont know"

trying to impose self-censorshipvia insults and harassment doesnt sound very free to me

No, I have a problem with the accusation that I'm advocating for the rights of fictitious beings. And I'm not really sure if completely making something up can be called making a mistake.


No, I'm criticizing them. If they're insulted by my criticism of their work then I don't know what to tell them. Maybe "grow a thicker skin"?

you are calling them sexist how is that criticism, thats an insult, you probably dont even know these people to argue if they are sexist or not

So you consider criticizing someone harassment, got it.

your criticism is an insult, id be unusual to find someone who doesnt consider insulted being called sexist or racist

Well then you can't really consider it harassment because my behavior isn't intended to disturb or upset, but to educate and criticize. I'm also not very repetitive since I rarely discuss the same person/game for very long before the next one manages to come around and shit all over itself.

you just admited, numerous times to advocate insulting and shaming devs and now you argue you dont want to disturb them?

that is unless you dont cosider "sexist" an insult

No, but the game just got a whole lot more sexist in its depiction of women. You can develop them as much as you want, if every female character is depicted as weak and helpless you've got a bit of a problem on your hands.

so sexism IS a zero sum equation according to you

Because I have no interest in creating games. I am not a game maker. I want the people who've spent their lives learning and studying to be game makers making games I want and I'm going to let them know that by telling them what I want and don't want.

and can you try doig so without slandering and shaming people?

TFYC, a group who built themselves on a foundation of spiting Zoe Quinn and feminism in general, not to mention a group that likely has enough money already. That said, what makes you think I don't support projects that I like? Do you think I can't give money to people and criticize games and developers?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/829/653/ce1.png

"stop bring[sic] FUCKING ZOE into the conversation"

yeah no that doesnt seem to be the case

if you support the games you want, and get to have the games you want, why cant everyone else have the games they want?

Yes yes I'm intolerant of intolerance, racism, sexism, and everything else. I know, I'm horrible.

no you are not, you are just advocating your own intolerance, you dont want people to do things certain ways and you are willing to insult them, shame them and slander them, and yes that IS horrible

You're acting like there's some reason men don't want diversity. I'm a man, after all, and here I am, asking for things. And the numbers you cited said that roughly a fifth to a quarter of the people playing these games are women, and that's in an environment that's not exactly friendly and inviting to that gender. Last time I checked, disparaging such a large fraction of your customers wasn't a good idea.

have you asked every man on the gaming community? have you asked every minority in it what they thing? or are you just making the decision for them?

yes a fifth is 20% and a quarter is 25%, therefore male gamers make up between 80% and 75% of all non-casual gamers on PC

first you talk about minorities, then you talk about the masses, then you talk about minorities again, are you ever going to be consistent? you cant say an artist is dominated by the market and then ask of him to listen to the minority of the people over the mayority

What word? Messgae? That word you decided that the one definition that supported your argument was the right definition and ignored every other one? Yeah, there's nothing obtuse about that.

none of your defintions support your argument, they are all based on the idea that communication can occur without intent

In a way, I guess? I mean, it's not really fitting since there's a bit of difference between a pretty realistic painting of a woman and a video game where women dress like strippers for no reason, but I guess.

the birth of venus

but regardless you already said enough, aparently if a piece of art doesnt appeal to you its not good

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

People have been insulted for their artistic choices since people began making artistic choices. If they choose to self-censor in response to criticism the responsibility for that lies entirely with them. It's called having volition.

Honestly whining about feeling "forced" into self-censorship has to be one of the leading candidates for the boo-hoo Olympics in the history of the world, up with the woman who called 911 because Burger King wouldn't prepare her hamburger the way she wanted it. It's called "self" censorship because it was voluntary.

If you're this concerned about the concept, you should cease to criticize those who are criticizing media. What if they felt shamed by your criticism, and self-censored themselves into silence? Oh the vicious cycle you'd have birthed! Oh the humanity!

isnt criticism something simply because its not made the way you wanted it also a candidates for the boo-hoo Olympics?

also i wouldnt really call these arguments art

finally "people get insulted all the time, its ok" then WHY are you complaining about sexism in the first place?

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I think it could help the discussion here, and elswhere, to argue the point that acknowledging a game, or any other work of art, as misogynistic does NOT make it suddenly unworthy of consumption. For example, I listen to quite a bit of rock music, as I expect a lot of us do. And rock music is full of sexist, misogynist content. I can acknowledge it and still listen and enjoy the music without falling into a guilt trip (unless of course it is overtly hateful). Furthermore, I can accept criticism of that art, even as it may no offend me personally.

Admitting a work of art is problematic doesn't suddenly mean that work should be banned or discarded. It just means it's worthy of criticism, like all good, compelling art. In the wise words of Ta-Nehisi Coates, "Straight Outta Compton is a great album. It's also misogynist."

So yeah, GTA V can be GREAT and MISOGYNIST. A fighting gamer with overly sexualized female characters in skimpy clothing can be offensive AND a kickass game. A work of art can be two things. Most works of art are. And yes, I consider games to be art.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/17/wildstar-to-reduce-character-breast-size/

what do you call that?

Oh did someone FORCE Carbine to do that, then? Did they break in and point guns at heads? Because I recall them doing that in response to community feedback.

Because if someone DID force them to do it, maybe they should have forced them to make a less shitty MMO in the process. That would've been a better use of everyone's time.

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

That is not what "censorship" means, period. I really don't understand what it is about you and Clever Name Here and that guy with House as his avatar that you can not grasp that simple concept.

That IS NOT CENSORSHIP. PERIOD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship

yes it is, shaming and insulting someone and ruining its reputation to make him/her change their artistic choices IS censorship

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

well there seems to be enough women involed with gaming in japan to make their own games and have a genre aimed directly at them, otome games

Except Otome games are generally not made by women. They are made by teams of professionals, some of whom will almost certainly be women but most of whom will be men.

Part of the reason for this is that the Japanese labour market has particular problems in relation to female employment. Although the majority of women do work, the cultural expectation in Japan is generally that they will quit their jobs once they get married, which means women tend to be overrperesented in the lower echelons of industries where they have little creative control. This is why your motivational is actually ironic.

But actually, what we're actually talking in the case of Japan is exactly what you don't seem to want. It isn't that women in Japan went off one day and made their own games, it's that women are recognized as a marketing demographic by the Japanese games industry. Telling women to go and code games in their basements isn't really a solution to the problem, because that's not how anything works any more outside of the indiest of the indie sector.

i dont know enough of japan to talk about female employment then, i will say that having games made towards a particular demographic is much better than trying to bend existing games to please everyone and end up pleasing nobody as well and compromising the vision of the artist

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/17/wildstar-to-reduce-character-breast-size/

what do you call that?

Oh did someone FORCE Carbine to do that, then? Did they break in and point guns at heads? Because I recall them doing that in response to community feedback.

Because if someone DID force them to do it, maybe they should have forced them to make a less shitty MMO in the process. That would've been a better use of everyone's time.

are we going to ignore that self-censorship is a thing now? that people are getting publicly shamed and insulted by their artistic choices?

Ok I need to butt in here. I write fanfiction. I've built up a rather healthy fanbase of a thousand people give or take. From the Ashes, a Fallout/Mass Effect crossover, it's pretty popular. Got on the TV Tropes fanfic recommendation page.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8126014/1/From-the-Ashes

I have been criticized while writing this story. For many things. One of them was a person criticizing me for bringing religion into the story in that one of my main characters was a Catholic priest. Not only is he the only one who is openly religious, he is highly against forcing his views on other people, rarely brings his own views up, and is generally all about peace and love. I decided this person could go fuck himself.

Another person criticized me for writing all of my female characters far too masculine. She said that it wasn't an inherently bad thing, she even said I did quite a few of them very well, but that a story could get stale if every single character had the same general attitude. I thought about it for awhile, and I added some development to two of my female characters. One an adrenaline junkie tomboy (Who to be honest had been sorta girly in the first place) who was revealed to be the type of person who loves just kicking back and being girly, and the other a woman who had lived an isolated life in brutal condition for twenty years. I decided to explore the idea of her hesitantly experimenting with being more feminine, confused and a little embarrassed about it, before eventually become comfortable with it. She still mostly dresses and acts masculine, but she indulges in more feminine hobbies on special occasions. (Work in progress) I honestly feel like my characters have been improved by this change. Like it breathed some fresh life into them. You see, artistic vision seems great while you're writing, but it suffers from tunnel vision sometimes. I've lost track of the number of times I wrote something I thought was great and then looking back a year latter and saying "What the FUCK was I thinking?"

Moral of the story, if you want to be a writer, you need to strike a compromise. You need to look through criticism and be able to decide what criticism is garbage, and consider the criticism that could help improve the work. In fact, I've learned getting too attached to your artistic vision is a bad thing. You need to be flexible as you write, because what popped up in your head doesn't always make it into the paper. The sheer number of things I had to leave on the cutting room floor of my mind...you would not believe.

i get that, but its a different thing when you are publicly shamed, when your name gets attached to things like "sexist" and "racism" becuase of the interpretation people have of your work, not because of your own views or the quality of your work, because those things can affect your relationships with people, those things can affect your opportunities of employment

im all in for someone expressing their opinion, even if i dont consider it valid cricism, ive said time and time again to the people in this thread wanting more diverse characters in agming to send respectful letters to the developers so that maybe they could consider other posibilities in the future

i am only agaisnt harassment, insults and public shaming

 

[BloatedGuppy]

isnt criticism something simply because its not made the way you wanted it also a candidates for the boo-hoo Olympics?

People decide whether or not they consider a criticism valid or not all the time. It's a personal choice. I might think one person's criticism of a particular film is inane, and ignore it. Another person might find it right on the money.

also i wouldnt really call these arguments art

Huh? Who called the "arguments" art? What are you talking about?

finally "people get insulted all the time, its ok" then WHY are you complaining about sexism in the first place?

1. It's okay to criticize games
2. It's okay to criticize critics

 

[Don Incognito]

yes it is, shaming and insulting someone and ruining its reputation to make him/her change their artistic choices IS censorship

Look, there is no point in having a discussion with someone who doesn't understand the difference between censorship and criticism, or who thinks that calling something racist or homophobic or sexist or hell, anything I guess isn't criticism.

If an artist changes their work because of something someone else said, that is NOT censorship. That is responding to criticism, whatever it may be.

I have a published novelist in my family. Her agent, her editor, her publisher... they are not censoring her.