Ya, pretty much. Ya, I feel this too. I think the problem is less about what people actually say, but their followers reactions when you call them out or disagree with an assertion. You ask them to back up what they say, and all the sudden you are ignoring the obvious. I'd say much of the blow back is from the critics in questions, followers because they cant handle the criticism any better. Same can apply to the people who have problems with certain criticisms, then it gets personal and you are no longer talking about why the talking point was superfluous at best.SNCommand said:
Why are we afraid of criticism?
- Thread starter QuietlyListening
- Start date
Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen? Because I commonly point out sexist tropes I love dearly. Metro Last Light, I have said it a hundred thousand times and I will continue to say it as many times as I need to. It is a brilliantly written atmospheric game, with in depth look at the nature of war, a unique and dark world with a tone of optimism, interesting characters, and an experience you can't get anywhere else.Bolo The Great said:
It can't write female characters to save its life.
"A good deal of her attackers" does a pretty good job painting negatively gamergate, but anyway it's semantics. Oh and I didn't mean all, maybe I didn't phrase it correctly or something.erttheking said:
And for the hundredth time, I go on criticizing the entire group of feminists because the main voices of that group do exactly what I'm describing. The fact that you either defend these people or turn a blind eye to their insanity and then act as if they don't represent your movement every time it's criticized smells of hypocrisy and bullshit. To draw a rather tasteless comparison, it reminds me of paramilitary murder squads that go on killing and doing a government's dirty work while the government turns a blind eye and then when it's accused the same government pretends that it's not responsible. Well, like that except that these people don't exactly hide their affiliation to feminism, in fact they flaunt it.
So whining will stop when women decide to start developing and playing more core games? So you'll keep nagging the entire game community for something that women don't seem willing to do? Oh great, that makes a lot of sense...
I think he is talking about inference, due to Anita talking about how viewing games that treat women as objects or in sexualized ways "profoundly" impacts how real life women are perceived and treated in the world. This infers that video games contribute to sexism and misogyny in the same way Jack Thompson claimed video games impact the view on violence in the real world, and since she points out the video games she believe does this...wellerttheking said:
Ok...it's his opinion that it happens. Someone's opinion isn't exactly proof that something happens. (Also no offense I take the word of someone who says "What the fuck are you people" with a grain of salt)Bolo The Great said:
I'm asking do you personally deal with this when talking about this matter? Because I have to say I rarely, if ever, see it. I'm not talking about these "Gamer hating journalists" that everyone seems to be talking about as of late. To be honest, I don't think of them because I honestly couldn't care less about them.
People identify their self worth by their hobbies, especially when people don't have an awful lot else going on.
So any perceived criticism of said hobby must be vigorously defended, because it becomes perceived as an attack on the self.
"Games are bad? I like games. That must mean I am bad! Pitchforks!".
The condition is treated by going for a walk, reading a book or petting a cat.
So any perceived criticism of said hobby must be vigorously defended, because it becomes perceived as an attack on the self.
"Games are bad? I like games. That must mean I am bad! Pitchforks!".
The condition is treated by going for a walk, reading a book or petting a cat.
Well, if you followed the gamer gate tag at all, you would see people do indeed do this. Is it really surprising? I've seen gamegate people say dumb stuff as well, it happens. Only difference is there is a focal point with Anita and her criticisms, where as with those who disagree there isn't 1 talking head above the others.erttheking said:
Couldn't have said it better myself, very well written and thoughtout post. I especially agree with the shaming part, the onslaught of horrible accusations against anyone who disagrees with them or doesn't follow the doctrine is only meant to bring shame and therefore silence any dissent.Bolo The Great said:
Well...they do. Here's the thing though, there is a massive gap between the two. Thompson said that gamers turn people into killers. Anita says that they affect a person's world view. That's true. Games can do that. All media can do that. Extra Credits did a good video on this.Melaphont said:
(5:45 onward is more relevant than the rest, though the rest makes good points too)
I think there in lies the real problem. Quite a few gamers have had to deal with so many bs accusations from people like Thompson, Fox News and Moral Guardians in general, that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.
I'm not denying that it happens, I'm just trying to get a feel for how often it happens. Because I have to admit that I see it rarely, if all. Then again I've stayed away from Gamergate because I feel getting involved would be jumping into a pit of rabid dogs. Worst of both worlds that place.Melaphont said:
I always got the impression that it stems from the innate implication that criticism ultimately means lack of perfection. This is of course derived from ideals, and not ever attainable (perfection, that is), and so all things can be subject to a critique of said product's focus, successes and flaws. Occasionally the critique itself is not complete, sharing little or no positive illuminations nor discussing the products' strengths or innovations, instead focusing on the perceived flaws/ failures, and vice-versa(extolling the product's apparent virtues without acknowledging it's perceived failings).
From there it can break down into several different misunderstandings, like the criticism always implying or equaling dislike or hatred of the product; implications that others who enjoy the product criticized are somewhat lacking in some manner/ need to be educated or shown that the product is flawed; that criticism is a push to have the product changed or redone, or outright banned, or a perceived shaming those that do partake in the product because they revel in the failings, making them inherently 'wrong'. I'm sure there could be other misunderstandings/failings/etc.
A good example is that I liked Prometheus, and most people on that alone think I'm a moron.
Okay, not a good example at all. I'm just bitter that people demand that THAT movie makes solid scientific sense, when a racoon can save the universe and gamma radiation creates rage-fuelled superheroes and not just cancer.
Damn it, I was trying to stay impartial...
From there it can break down into several different misunderstandings, like the criticism always implying or equaling dislike or hatred of the product; implications that others who enjoy the product criticized are somewhat lacking in some manner/ need to be educated or shown that the product is flawed; that criticism is a push to have the product changed or redone, or outright banned, or a perceived shaming those that do partake in the product because they revel in the failings, making them inherently 'wrong'. I'm sure there could be other misunderstandings/failings/etc.
A good example is that I liked Prometheus, and most people on that alone think I'm a moron.
Okay, not a good example at all. I'm just bitter that people demand that THAT movie makes solid scientific sense, when a racoon can save the universe and gamma radiation creates rage-fuelled superheroes and not just cancer.
Damn it, I was trying to stay impartial...
I've watched that one before, and I disagree. That video is incredibly subjective, and see this is what I'm talking about. Just because you can find people that agree with you, doesn't mean that the criticism correct, it just means they agree with a assertion. Remember, there were a host of "studies" that were used to support Jack Thompson as well, only to be shown as incorrect by the Texas A&M peer reviewed study, that showed that those previous studies showed no factual link between video games and aggression(much less violence).erttheking said:
And then your second paragraph just shows the perception he was talking about, to be frank.
This literally could be flipped onto those who support the notions of Anita. Literally if you disagree with the assertion you have an unhealthy opinion and are overly defensive.
We should probably just drop that part.Guerilla said:
And for the hundredth time, Anita is NOT the main voice of feminism. I'd be willing to bet hard money that you don't follow feminism at all. You don't follow feminist blogs on Tumblr, feminist journals, youtube series. I'd be willing to bet your only exposure to feminism is Anita and what gaming journals print. I follow a friend's Tumblr. She is a massive feminist, constantly sharing posts from other feminist blogs. She rarely, if ever, comments on Anita. And when she does once in a blue moon, it's more about her being frustrated with all the harassment she is getting. Anita is BORING. She makes lousy argument, takes things out of context, this same feminist friend got mad at her when I talked to her about it. I am a feminist and I don't care about Anita. I desperately want her series to fade into obscurity and people to forget that she ever existed. But that won't happen. And I'll admit it, yes there is a lot of bullshit going on that comes from feminist origin. I'm not clear what's going on with Zoey Quinn, but the evidence that she's been up to questionable stuff is a long stronger than the evidence towards Anita. I can't get behind the people who defend her and there are plenty of feminists out there than are just plain sexist towards men. It hardly defines the movement though. And if I was just to take a wild guess, I think people are pretty frustrated with the argument about the extremists in the group because more often than not people assume those extremists are what they're all about, which is why they don't want to talk about them. It happens on both sides and is why I think this argument is so hostile.
You know, calling dissenting opinions whining and nagging, REALLY reflects badly on you. Also, 1. why can only women develop games with good female characters? Why can't men do it? 2. There are more than a few women in the industry already 3. more women would play games if gaming was more inclusive
And yeah, that was pretty fucking tasteless.
Isn't that pretty much the exact problem at play though?Melaphont said:
Most of us don't think that closely about most topics. Too much noise, too little time, too much information, too little interest.
So we just sort of go with whichever position seems to superficially appeal to us at the moment.
I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people on either side have put much of any thought into this beyond "These people say things that vaguely sound like things I'd say, if I could be bothered. I'll agree with them and then repeat the last 3 things I saw someone say on the internet".
Criticise only for creative discussion, the problem is most people shy away now because there have been alot of criticisms that AREN'T creative discussions, and this jades people from engaging in these conversation. I for one like to criticise and be criticised, a different perspective helps me get away from the subject, but its not like I live for it and there seems to be a bit too much of it recently to the point its starting to gloss my eyes over and be blind to all the GOOD, POSITIVE elements of the subject of criticism. We are not afraid, we are TIRED.
Well ya, I think that is the large majority of the problem. Nobody(not literally) is talking specifics, it is all very subjective viewpoints on how things work or the intentions of why things work like they do. I mean, I was just told that disagreeing with Anita's view is because some "gamers" are defensive and lost perspective on Anita's message. I mean come on, really? And the problem is gamers can't handle criticism? No, social media has just taught everyone that you are right, by committee because there is a faceless mob out there that agree's with you.runequester said:
Ok. Please tell me why they are wrong then. Because while you can just say that there were also studies to prove Thompson's points, that doesn't do anything to show why Extra Credit's points are wrong. I'll be willing to listen to convincing arguments. I suppose it's only fair if I present my argument as to why they are right first though. Human beings at the results of our environments. We're born as blank slates and form our personalities from the world around us. The people we interact with, the media we consume. I grew up in a right wing Christian house hold. For the longest time I held right wing views, even though I lived in the rather liberal MA. I used to love video games like Call of Duty and movies like the Patriot, movies that had a very "America FUCK YEAH!" vibe to them, so I could watch America's enemies be gunned down. Nowadays, I don't want anything to do with those things. Because I got onto the internet and got exposed to other media, media that allowed me to see other view points. After awhile, my view was finally changed. Those movies and games I played didn't create my viewpoint all on their own, but they did do a good job of reinforcing it.Melaphont said:
No it couldn't. Because mentally shutting out any and all criticisms is an unhealthy mentality. Pure and simple. That is what I said. Not that disagreeing with a certain viewpoint was unhealthy, blocking out any criticisms of gaming. You can't just block them out. That is what I said. If it came off that way, I apologize.