Why are we afraid of criticism?

[runequester]

People identify their self worth by their hobbies, especially when people don't have an awful lot else going on.

So any perceived criticism of said hobby must be vigorously defended, because it becomes perceived as an attack on the self.

"Games are bad? I like games. That must mean I am bad! Pitchforks!".


The condition is treated by going for a walk, reading a book or petting a cat.

 

[Melaphont]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen?

Well David Jaffe seems to think this happens:

https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation

Ok...it's his opinion that it happens. Someone's opinion isn't exactly proof that something happens. (Also no offense I take the word of someone who says "What the fuck are you people" with a grain of salt)

I'm asking do you personally deal with this when talking about this matter? Because I have to say I rarely, if ever, see it. I'm not talking about these "Gamer hating journalists" that everyone seems to be talking about as of late. To be honest, I don't think of them because I honestly couldn't care less about them.

Well, if you followed the gamer gate tag at all, you would see people do indeed do this. Is it really surprising? I've seen gamegate people say dumb stuff as well, it happens. Only difference is there is a focal point with Anita and her criticisms, where as with those who disagree there isn't 1 talking head above the others.

 

[Guerilla]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

We don't see as much criticism of mechanics anymore; we've seen this deluge of people injecting their own agenda into their criticism. You can't disagree with it or you too are a misogynist or a bigot or whatever they wheel out. You didn't see people doing that before. We used to be able to disagree about games without a side being branded as some kind of hateful monster for disagreeing.

Over the past few years gaming has been systematically ground down in the media. It's a rot. Remember the strident confidence after Videogames were victorious in the supreme court? Gaming used to be a confident medium unburded by those who wish to not only bring ctirisim but shame. That's what i disagree with most, the systematic shaming and putting down as games as a medium, developers and the gaming community.

It culminated in the past couple of weeks with the entire community being shit on by pompous cunts. We are not 'afraid' of criticism we are angry at being insulted. We violently reject the assertion that we as a medium and as a community are toxic and a cathedral of sexism. And the louder we disagree the more these insipid people call us out as monsters. I'm sick of it. Gaming is amazing. It's the entertainment of the future. Instead of promoting that the gaming media tell us to shrink and be ashamed. A group of self serving pundits have created a moral pyramid and put themselves on top of it. That's their meal ticket. These people make a living off this. It's in their interests to keep this circus of drama and in-fighting going.

Gaming does not deserve to be torn down from within by a handful of ideologues we don't have the balls to stand up to properly. As far as I'm concerned we should run this people out of town like the Jack Thompsons and Leeland Yees of this world.

Couldn't have said it better myself, very well written and thoughtout post. I especially agree with the shaming part, the onslaught of horrible accusations against anyone who disagrees with them or doesn't follow the doctrine is only meant to bring shame and therefore silence any dissent.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen? Because I commonly point out sexist tropes I love dearly. Metro Last Light, I have said it a hundred thousand times and I will continue to say it as many times as I need to. It is a brilliantly written atmospheric game, with in depth look at the nature of war, a unique and dark world with a tone of optimism, interesting characters, and an experience you can't get anywhere else.

It can't write female characters to save its life.

I think he is talking about inference, due to Anita talking about how viewing games that treat women as objects or in sexualized ways "profoundly" impacts how real life women are perceived and treated in the world. This infers that video games contribute to sexism and misogyny in the same way Jack Thompson claimed video games impact the view on violence in the real world, and since she points out the video games she believe does this...well

Well...they do. Here's the thing though, there is a massive gap between the two. Thompson said that gamers turn people into killers. Anita says that they affect a person's world view. That's true. Games can do that. All media can do that. Extra Credits did a good video on this.


(5:45 onward is more relevant than the rest, though the rest makes good points too)

I think there in lies the real problem. Quite a few gamers have had to deal with so many bs accusations from people like Thompson, Fox News and Moral Guardians in general, that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen?

Well David Jaffe seems to think this happens:

https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation

Ok...it's his opinion that it happens. Someone's opinion isn't exactly proof that something happens. (Also no offense I take the word of someone who says "What the fuck are you people" with a grain of salt)

I'm asking do you personally deal with this when talking about this matter? Because I have to say I rarely, if ever, see it. I'm not talking about these "Gamer hating journalists" that everyone seems to be talking about as of late. To be honest, I don't think of them because I honestly couldn't care less about them.

Well, if you followed the gamer gate tag at all, you would see people do indeed do this. Is it really surprising? I've seen gamegate people say dumb stuff as well, it happens. Only difference is there is a focal point with Anita and her criticisms, where as with those who disagree there isn't 1 talking head above the others.

I'm not denying that it happens, I'm just trying to get a feel for how often it happens. Because I have to admit that I see it rarely, if all. Then again I've stayed away from Gamergate because I feel getting involved would be jumping into a pit of rabid dogs. Worst of both worlds that place.

 

[the December King]

I always got the impression that it stems from the innate implication that criticism ultimately means lack of perfection. This is of course derived from ideals, and not ever attainable (perfection, that is), and so all things can be subject to a critique of said product's focus, successes and flaws. Occasionally the critique itself is not complete, sharing little or no positive illuminations nor discussing the products' strengths or innovations, instead focusing on the perceived flaws/ failures, and vice-versa(extolling the product's apparent virtues without acknowledging it's perceived failings).

From there it can break down into several different misunderstandings, like the criticism always implying or equaling dislike or hatred of the product; implications that others who enjoy the product criticized are somewhat lacking in some manner/ need to be educated or shown that the product is flawed; that criticism is a push to have the product changed or redone, or outright banned, or a perceived shaming those that do partake in the product because they revel in the failings, making them inherently 'wrong'. I'm sure there could be other misunderstandings/failings/etc.

A good example is that I liked Prometheus, and most people on that alone think I'm a moron.

Okay, not a good example at all. I'm just bitter that people demand that THAT movie makes solid scientific sense, when a racoon can save the universe and gamma radiation creates rage-fuelled superheroes and not just cancer.

Damn it, I was trying to stay impartial...

 

[Melaphont]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen? Because I commonly point out sexist tropes I love dearly. Metro Last Light, I have said it a hundred thousand times and I will continue to say it as many times as I need to. It is a brilliantly written atmospheric game, with in depth look at the nature of war, a unique and dark world with a tone of optimism, interesting characters, and an experience you can't get anywhere else.

It can't write female characters to save its life.

I think he is talking about inference, due to Anita talking about how viewing games that treat women as objects or in sexualized ways "profoundly" impacts how real life women are perceived and treated in the world. This infers that video games contribute to sexism and misogyny in the same way Jack Thompson claimed video games impact the view on violence in the real world, and since she points out the video games she believe does this...well

Well...they do. Here's the thing though, there is a massive gap between the two. Thompson said that gamers turn people into killers. Anita says that they affect a person's world view. That's true. Games can do that. All media can do that. Extra Credits did a good video on this.


(5:45 onward is more relevant than the rest, though the rest makes good points too)

I think there in lies the real problem. Quite a few gamers have had to deal with so many bs accusations from people like Thompson, Fox News and Moral Guardians in general, that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.

I've watched that one before, and I disagree. That video is incredibly subjective, and see this is what I'm talking about. Just because you can find people that agree with you, doesn't mean that the criticism correct, it just means they agree with a assertion. Remember, there were a host of "studies" that were used to support Jack Thompson as well, only to be shown as incorrect by the Texas A&M peer reviewed study, that showed that those previous studies showed no factual link between video games and aggression(much less violence).

And then your second paragraph just shows the perception he was talking about, to be frank.

that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.

This literally could be flipped onto those who support the notions of Anita. Literally if you disagree with the assertion you have an unhealthy opinion and are overly defensive.

 

[Erttheking]

I. Didn't. I said "A good deal of her attackers" Not all. In fact, you're the one who seems to be going for the criticizing the entire group path (Onslaught of feminist whining? Really?). In fact, I acknowledge the flaws in the pro-feminist side in my post.

I thought we were talking about women being able to do anything they wanted and getting away from it in the industry. When did we shift gears to talking about "feminist whining"? Because those are two very different things. Is your main complaint really about how everyone is complaining about the representation of women in media? If that's the case, the "whining (If reflects badly on you when you refer to people who you disagree with as whining) will stop when female representation in gaming stops being so abysmal. Because it is.

"A good deal of her attackers" does a pretty good job painting negatively gamergate, but anyway it's semantics. Oh and I didn't mean all, maybe I didn't phrase it correctly or something.

And for the hundredth time, I go on criticizing the entire group of feminists because the main voices of that group do exactly what I'm describing. The fact that you either defend these people or turn a blind eye to their insanity and then act as if they don't represent your movement every time it's criticized smells of hypocrisy and bullshit. To draw a rather tasteless comparison, it reminds me of paramilitary murder squads that go on killing and doing a government's dirty work while the government turns a blind eye and then when it's accused the same government pretends that it's not responsible. Well, like that except that these people don't exactly hide their affiliation to feminism, in fact they flaunt it.

So whining will stop when women decide to start developing and playing more core games? So you'll keep nagging the entire game community for something that women don't seem willing to do? Oh great, that makes a lot of sense...

We should probably just drop that part.

And for the hundredth time, Anita is NOT the main voice of feminism. I'd be willing to bet hard money that you don't follow feminism at all. You don't follow feminist blogs on Tumblr, feminist journals, youtube series. I'd be willing to bet your only exposure to feminism is Anita and what gaming journals print. I follow a friend's Tumblr. She is a massive feminist, constantly sharing posts from other feminist blogs. She rarely, if ever, comments on Anita. And when she does once in a blue moon, it's more about her being frustrated with all the harassment she is getting. Anita is BORING. She makes lousy argument, takes things out of context, this same feminist friend got mad at her when I talked to her about it. I am a feminist and I don't care about Anita. I desperately want her series to fade into obscurity and people to forget that she ever existed. But that won't happen. And I'll admit it, yes there is a lot of bullshit going on that comes from feminist origin. I'm not clear what's going on with Zoey Quinn, but the evidence that she's been up to questionable stuff is a long stronger than the evidence towards Anita. I can't get behind the people who defend her and there are plenty of feminists out there than are just plain sexist towards men. It hardly defines the movement though. And if I was just to take a wild guess, I think people are pretty frustrated with the argument about the extremists in the group because more often than not people assume those extremists are what they're all about, which is why they don't want to talk about them. It happens on both sides and is why I think this argument is so hostile.

You know, calling dissenting opinions whining and nagging, REALLY reflects badly on you. Also, 1. why can only women develop games with good female characters? Why can't men do it? 2. There are more than a few women in the industry already 3. more women would play games if gaming was more inclusive

And yeah, that was pretty fucking tasteless.

 

[runequester]

This literally could be flipped onto those who support the notions of Anita. Literally if you disagree with the assertion you have an unhealthy opinion and are overly defensive.

Isn't that pretty much the exact problem at play though?

Most of us don't think that closely about most topics. Too much noise, too little time, too much information, too little interest.

So we just sort of go with whichever position seems to superficially appeal to us at the moment.

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people on either side have put much of any thought into this beyond "These people say things that vaguely sound like things I'd say, if I could be bothered. I'll agree with them and then repeat the last 3 things I saw someone say on the internet".

 

[BarkBarker]

Criticise only for creative discussion, the problem is most people shy away now because there have been alot of criticisms that AREN'T creative discussions, and this jades people from engaging in these conversation. I for one like to criticise and be criticised, a different perspective helps me get away from the subject, but its not like I live for it and there seems to be a bit too much of it recently to the point its starting to gloss my eyes over and be blind to all the GOOD, POSITIVE elements of the subject of criticism. We are not afraid, we are TIRED.

 

[Melaphont]

This literally could be flipped onto those who support the notions of Anita. Literally if you disagree with the assertion you have an unhealthy opinion and are overly defensive.

Isn't that pretty much the exact problem at play though?

Most of us don't think that closely about most topics. Too much noise, too little time, too much information, too little interest.

So we just sort of go with whichever position seems to superficially appeal to us at the moment.

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people on either side have put much of any thought into this beyond "These people say things that vaguely sound like things I'd say, if I could be bothered. I'll agree with them and then repeat the last 3 things I saw someone say on the internet".

Well ya, I think that is the large majority of the problem. Nobody(not literally) is talking specifics, it is all very subjective viewpoints on how things work or the intentions of why things work like they do. I mean, I was just told that disagreeing with Anita's view is because some "gamers" are defensive and lost perspective on Anita's message. I mean come on, really? And the problem is gamers can't handle criticism? No, social media has just taught everyone that you are right, by committee because there is a faceless mob out there that agree's with you.

 

[Erttheking]

It's not merely criticism.

"You're game is bad" but this has become

"You're game is sexist and you are a misogynist bigot

Ok I just want to ask a simple question. Does this happen? How often does it happen? Because I commonly point out sexist tropes I love dearly. Metro Last Light, I have said it a hundred thousand times and I will continue to say it as many times as I need to. It is a brilliantly written atmospheric game, with in depth look at the nature of war, a unique and dark world with a tone of optimism, interesting characters, and an experience you can't get anywhere else.

It can't write female characters to save its life.

I think he is talking about inference, due to Anita talking about how viewing games that treat women as objects or in sexualized ways "profoundly" impacts how real life women are perceived and treated in the world. This infers that video games contribute to sexism and misogyny in the same way Jack Thompson claimed video games impact the view on violence in the real world, and since she points out the video games she believe does this...well

Well...they do. Here's the thing though, there is a massive gap between the two. Thompson said that gamers turn people into killers. Anita says that they affect a person's world view. That's true. Games can do that. All media can do that. Extra Credits did a good video on this.


(5:45 onward is more relevant than the rest, though the rest makes good points too)

I think there in lies the real problem. Quite a few gamers have had to deal with so many bs accusations from people like Thompson, Fox News and Moral Guardians in general, that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.

I've watched that one before, and I disagree. That video is incredibly subjective, and see this is what I'm talking about. Just because you can find people that agree with you, doesn't mean that the criticism correct, it just means they agree with a assertion. Remember, there were a host of "studies" that were used to support Jack Thompson as well, only to be shown as incorrect by the Texas A&M peer reviewed study, that showed that those previous studies showed no factual link between video games and aggression(much less violence).

And then your second paragraph just shows the perception he was talking about, to be frank.

that they're defensive when it comes to any criticism of the overall status of games. And I can understand that. But it isn't a healthy mindset.

This literally could be flipped onto those who support the notions of Anita. Literally if you disagree with the assertion you have an unhealthy opinion and are overly defensive.

Ok. Please tell me why they are wrong then. Because while you can just say that there were also studies to prove Thompson's points, that doesn't do anything to show why Extra Credit's points are wrong. I'll be willing to listen to convincing arguments. I suppose it's only fair if I present my argument as to why they are right first though. Human beings at the results of our environments. We're born as blank slates and form our personalities from the world around us. The people we interact with, the media we consume. I grew up in a right wing Christian house hold. For the longest time I held right wing views, even though I lived in the rather liberal MA. I used to love video games like Call of Duty and movies like the Patriot, movies that had a very "America FUCK YEAH!" vibe to them, so I could watch America's enemies be gunned down. Nowadays, I don't want anything to do with those things. Because I got onto the internet and got exposed to other media, media that allowed me to see other view points. After awhile, my view was finally changed. Those movies and games I played didn't create my viewpoint all on their own, but they did do a good job of reinforcing it.

No it couldn't. Because mentally shutting out any and all criticisms is an unhealthy mentality. Pure and simple. That is what I said. Not that disagreeing with a certain viewpoint was unhealthy, blocking out any criticisms of gaming. You can't just block them out. That is what I said. If it came off that way, I apologize.

 

[grassgremlin]

Criticism is scary. People are very secure in what they like. They want to feel that security and be lost in that nice big blanket of seclusion where the real world doesn't matter.

When the real world knocks, this frightens them because of what they usually observe in the real world. It's either boring, harsh or too complicated.

Criticism makes things complicated.

There's also an intelligence thing. Telling you that that thing you like is dumb or that thing you like is sexist. It basically insults you. "I'M NOT SEXIST! HOW DARE YOU TELL ME MY ONE TRUE LOVE IS SEXIST! HOW DARE YOU!?"

People just hate to admit they like some dumb or politically incorrect things some time. They feel everyone should be happy with this, or worst, EVERYONE IS CRAZY!

People don't understand why this thing can be criticized because in their mind it's perfect. Social experiences told them that this is a okay and fun game. The game/show/object is their friend. It caresses them in their sleep. Got them through a rough time. It inspires them. They love it unapologetically and forgive it's flaws.

Criticism is crazy too. It can have a tinge of snobbery. Your tastes are not as refined as mine. Or, well, uh, hate to break it to you, but that thing you like is kind of racist.

You don't wanna hear anything of it.

No way. All my love I've made love with that game and it taught me creativity can be anything I want. (emphasis on "I").

How dare you point out the flaws of this in such a way. You must at least praise its good points, something good. Please, no. I have guilty pleasures, don't take them away from me!

That's just my point of view.

 

[Erttheking]

Well David Jaffe seems to think this happens:

https://soundcloud.com/ben-kuchera/jaffe-confrontation

Ok...it's his opinion that it happens. Someone's opinion isn't exactly proof that something happens. (Also no offense I take the word of someone who says "What the fuck are you people" with a grain of salt)

I'm asking do you personally deal with this when talking about this matter? Because I have to say I rarely, if ever, see it. I'm not talking about these "Gamer hating journalists" that everyone seems to be talking about as of late. To be honest, I don't think of them because I honestly couldn't care less about them.

Go back and read the article he is angry about.

http://kotaku.com/5883107/does-david-jaffe-really-recommend-his-new-game-as-a-sexual-aid

Is that really unbiased and professional journalism? If i was Jaffe I'd be angry about being called a misogynist too. Look at how he got treated on social media after this.

Do you REALLY want a massive list of Polygon, Kotaku, Rock Paper Shotgun etc articles that show a clear trend towards shaming? Because if you really want i will compile a list of them for you and add to that the "Gamers are dead" articles we all say post GamerGate. I've got time, there are plenty of examples to choose from from the last couple of years.

It's a narrative, a trend. Hell go and look at all of those critical Distance articles from the past couple of weeks that get posted on this very site. They want a war memorial, a fucking war memorial, for all the brave women that GameGate has 'driven out of the industry'. They even got an artist to make a mock up of it. They weren't joking they were 100% serious. This is the kind of rhetoric we have been dealing with:

Because this is war, and the truth is there's no balanced reporting. There's no "hearing both sides." If you?re not speaking out with us or fighting for us, then you?re not some reasoned logician who is letting cooler heads prevail? the truth is you don?t give a shit about the women in the industry. You don?t care about the casualties. And you are part of the problem.

These words were part of a spotlight that was in The Escapist news section. These words were linked to by Rock Paper Shotgun. Now tell me again how this hasn't become a narrative rife with shaming and moral grandstanding.

To be perfectly honest I don't put much stock in video game journalism. It's kind of a mess and a joke. I don't really care what they think because their opinions aren't worth my time. If your point was just to say that journalists in this field are unprofessional and too up front and pushy about their political views, then I agree with you 100%. We will all benefit from that bullshit going away. But that wasn't what I thought you were talking about and what I was talking about. I'm talking more about the everyman, the people you talk with on the forums. Does it happen to you then?

 

[runequester]

Well ya, I think that is the large majority of the problem. Nobody(not literally) is talking specifics, it is all very subjective viewpoints on how things work or the intentions of why things work like they do. I mean, I was just told that disagreeing with Anita's view is because some "gamers" are defensive and lost perspective on Anita's message. I mean come on, really? And the problem is gamers can't handle criticism? No, social media has just taught everyone that you are right, by committee because there is a faceless mob out there that agree's with you.

It's the post-modern world Every opinion is equally valid because the important part is having an opinion, not whether you can substantiate it.

And since any view point will find a horde of other people yelling the same thing on the twitterbooks+, it's easy to feel reinforced. The feeling of people agreeing with you is a very powerful one.


And hence why, out of all this yelling (which will probably go on for yet more months), nothing will actually come out of it whatsoever. It's just to make people feel good about their particular pet causes.

 

[Melaphont]

Ok. Please tell me why they are wrong then.

I'm not making the assertion, the people saying video games profoundly impact how things are viewed is the assertion that needs to be proven(which has not been done in that video or Anita's).

Because while you can just say that there were also studies to prove Thompson's points, that doesn't do anything to show why Extra Credit's points are wrong. I'll be willing to listen to convincing arguments. I suppose it's only fair if I present my argument as to why they are right first though. Human beings at the results of our environments. We're born as blank slates and form our personalities from the world around us. The people we interact with, the media we consume. I grew up in a right wing Christian house hold. For the longest time I held right wing views, even though I lived in the rather liberal MA. I used to love video games like Call of Duty and movies like the Patriot, movies that had a very "America FUCK YEAH!" vibe to them, so I could watch America's enemies be gunned down. Nowadays, I don't want anything to do with those things. Because I got onto the internet and got exposed to other media, media that allowed me to see other view points. After awhile, my view was finally changed. Those movies and games I played didn't create my viewpoint all on their own, but they did do a good job of reinforcing it.

No it couldn't. Because mentally shutting out any and all criticisms is an unhealthy mentality. Pure and simple. That is what I said. Not that disagreeing with a certain viewpoint was unhealthy, blocking out any criticisms of gaming. Even if criticisms are lousy, you can't just block them out That is what I said. If it came off that way, I apologize.

What you said isnt limited to video games though. If you want to create the perfect scenario where this 1 person is only ever playing the most sexist game you think exists(BMX XXX?) and then only watches porn(literally nothing else) and their favorite TV show is late night Cinemax, and the only people they interact with are people who are sexist or misogynist, then sure in a bad enough environment bad things can happen. However you can apply that with literally anything. The thing is, if you want to claim these small amount of games do in fact cause real world sexism and misogyny you should be able to back it up with more then theory to claim it as reality. Also you have to just assume there are enough people in this perfectly horrible environment, to the point where a small handful of games literally cause sexism and misogyny to be more acceptable.

And honestly, I have problems buying into this idea that "dirty" art causes societal problems in the world, I just dont buy it. If you become obsessed with something, sure then it could be a problem, but that isnt limited to any 1 particular thing. And if you want to take your viewpoint to its end point for the protection of the minds, then all offensive art needs to be curtailed. I mean seriously, where do you draw the line?

Are there video games with some sexist overtones? Sure, there is, lot of video games out there. Does this mean I believe it impacts society by enforcing stereotypes? No, and I'm not seeing evidence this is the case, because most video games, movies, and ect are not inundated with what is being talked about, so there is no reason to believe the current video game environment indeed causes the assertion. So unless you can show that video games have a systemic problem(not just pointing out a very small handful of games, and even then those are not factually evident) with sexism or misogyny, I'd say the claim is baseless, and is begging the question.

And as for your unhealthy mentality remark. Yes, ignoring opinion because you disagree with it can be problematic... However I'm not sure why you assume this is largely a issue with those who disagree with Anita.

Like I said before, she does show that video games have a long way to go in narrative design and also some games do indeed have sexual undertones that could be considered sexist. However, that doesnt mean there is a systemic issue.

 

[Erttheking]

To be perfectly honest I don't put much stock in video game journalism. It's kind of a mess and a joke. I don't really care what they think because their opinions aren't worth my time. If your point was just to say that journalists in this field are unprofessional and too up front and pushy about their political views, then I agree with you 100%. We will all benefit from that bullshit going away. But that wasn't what I thought you were talking about and what I was talking about. I'm talking more about the everyman, the people you talk with on the forums. Does it happen to you then?

Sometimes. You get one or two people who like to repeat the lines of the Gawkeratzi but honestly on the whole the community is much better than the press. Gamers don't say that nearly as much or nearly as loudly. So i guess if i had to answer yes or no i would say no, it does not happen from the community by and large. It is not overwhelming from ordinary gamers. The gaming public is pretty swell. Again it's a tiny vocal minority within the community i see do this, like any trolls or agenda group.

Well I'm glad we agree on the journalism point. Generally that's what I'm posting about though: community criticism comes in all forms. It's unprofessional by nature and so you get ALL the opinions. Most of what i would consider criticism comes from... critics and pundits with a soap-box. Community opinion is a different beast.

Well, I'm glad that we can agree on this matter. Heh, pretty nice when both sides can listen to reason isn't it?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

From what I've gathered, which I'll admit up front isn't much because I've been staying far away from a lot of this stuff because...well to put it bluntly I really don't care...

It's not that people are mad that it's being talked about. They're mad because that's ALL that seems to be talked about.

Sometimes it does seem that way. On here. Ironically, the people bitching about the existence of the conversation are the same people starting the threads 99 times out of 100.

Outside of here, I hear this kind of critique about gaming rarely if ever. I didn't even hear the TERM "social justice warrior" until it was getting screamed about on these forums by fifteen year olds so alarmed at the existence of this manufactured foe you'd think there was a mob of them kicking in their bedroom doors. I could go to any of the loathed and derided gaming sites right this moment and find the overwhelming majority of their content to be the standard robble about games we've been digesting for years.

 

[Erttheking]

Ok. Please tell me why they are wrong then.

I'm not making the assertion, the people saying video games profoundly impact how things are viewed is the assertion that needs to be proven(which has not been done in that video or Anita's).

Because while you can just say that there were also studies to prove Thompson's points, that doesn't do anything to show why Extra Credit's points are wrong. I'll be willing to listen to convincing arguments. I suppose it's only fair if I present my argument as to why they are right first though. Human beings at the results of our environments. We're born as blank slates and form our personalities from the world around us. The people we interact with, the media we consume. I grew up in a right wing Christian house hold. For the longest time I held right wing views, even though I lived in the rather liberal MA. I used to love video games like Call of Duty and movies like the Patriot, movies that had a very "America FUCK YEAH!" vibe to them, so I could watch America's enemies be gunned down. Nowadays, I don't want anything to do with those things. Because I got onto the internet and got exposed to other media, media that allowed me to see other view points. After awhile, my view was finally changed. Those movies and games I played didn't create my viewpoint all on their own, but they did do a good job of reinforcing it.

No it couldn't. Because mentally shutting out any and all criticisms is an unhealthy mentality. Pure and simple. That is what I said. Not that disagreeing with a certain viewpoint was unhealthy, blocking out any criticisms of gaming. Even if criticisms are lousy, you can't just block them out That is what I said. If it came off that way, I apologize.

What you said isnt limited to video games though. If you want to create the perfect scenario where this 1 person is only ever playing the most sexist game you think exists(BMX XXX?) and then only watches porn(literally nothing else) and their favorite TV show is late night Cinemax, and the only people they interact with are people who are sexist or misogynist, then sure in a bad enough environment bad things can happen. However you can apply that with literally anything. The thing is, if you want to claim these small amount of games do in fact cause real world sexism and misogyny you should be able to back it up with more then theory to claim it as reality. Also you have to just assume there are enough people in this perfectly horrible environment, to the point where a small handful of games literally cause sexism and misogyny to be more acceptable.

And honestly, I have problems buying into this idea that "dirty" art causes societal problems in the world, I just dont buy it. If you become obsessed with something, sure then it could be a problem, but that isnt limited to any 1 particular thing. And if you want to take your viewpoint to its end point for the protection of the minds, then all offensive art needs to be curtailed. I mean seriously, where do you draw the line?

Are there video games with some sexist overtones? Sure, there is, lot of video games out there. Does this mean I believe it impacts society by enforcing stereotypes? No, and I'm not seeing evidence this is the case, because most video games, movies, and ect are not inundated with what is being talked about, so there is no reason to believe the current video game environment indeed causes the assertion. So unless you can show that video games have a systemic problem(not just pointing out a very small handful of games, and even then those are not factually evident) with sexism more misogyny, I'd say the claim is baseless, and is begging the question.

And as for your unhealthy mentality remark. Yes, ignoring opinion because you disagree with it can be problematic... However I'm not sure why you assume this is largely a issue with those who disagree with Anita.

Like I said before, she does show that video games have a long way to go in narrative design and also some games do indeed have sexual undertones that could be considered sexist. However, that doesnt mean there is a systemic issue.

Fair point. But I think it's safe to say that it's hardly speculation that media does affect our outlook on life. Maybe not for people who go out of their way to make sure they have their facts, but for people who don't bother to double check facts. Something I think most people are guilty of, even if it's only sometimes. I gotta admit, I do it too.

Well yeah. Any media can do that. I'm pretty sure I said that myself. It's not a "Games made Misogyny 50% more acceptable thing" it's small little factors. Little things here and there that enforce unhealthy mindsets. They can even pop up in really good games, or be so small that 90% of the people who play the game don't even notice them. Like in Skyrim how there is a mission to slut sham a woman. Skyrim itself has a pretty positive portrayal of women, but that little tid bit is still a no-no. It doesn't help that things aren't divided into completely sexist or completely feminist. You can think that women should be on the front lines in the armed forces, should have equal representation in government, have reproductive rights, should not have to do deal with harassment, cat calls or jeering, but you can still call a woman who has sex a slut. It's not black and white. It's complicated. As for finding evidence, I'd have to do some looking around and I have work soon. I'll see if I can get something after that. Sorry about that.

I'm not saying that all offensive arts need to be curtailed, I'm saying that when media in mass portrays a certain group negatively and they're in the mast majority (See how Russians and Chinese are so commonly bad guys in modern military shooters) I definitely think we need to get away from that and do something else.

Fair enough, I'll have to do some research for that. Like I said before, it'll sadly take some time.

I wasn't even really thinking about Anita. Just people who get defensive whenever games are criticized about anything.

Well I have to disagree that there is a systematic issue, mainly in the sense that we're struggling to write good female characters (Characters in general really, so arguably it's part of a bigger whole) and arguably the whole "Dude bro" mindset that goes with mass appeal (Read, appealing to COD fans) that we can hopefully shake off.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You are probably right to simply disregard the gaming press though. Seems like the safe choice. Wright the fuckers off entirely.

I don't think you can throw a blanket over the "gaming press" any more than you can throw a blanket over "gamers" or "feminists" or any diverse group. As varied individuals, some will be professional and others won't. Some will be good writers and others won't. Some will let conflict of interest guide their opinions and others won't. Some will let emotion get the better of them and lash out on topic X or Y and others won't. Etc, etc, etc, etc. There aren't exactly high "journalistic standards" in print media at all any more, and there never have been for gaming. It's just a lot of people with a lot of opinions. As always, it's up to their readers to think critically about what they're reading and come to their own conclusions. Don't like what Joe Game Reporter has to say? Don't read his articles any more.