Why are we afraid of criticism?

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StriderShinryu

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MarsAtlas said:
Reason 2: They feel that criticism of the game is criticism of them as a person.
This is pretty much the biggest reason, but it's not necessarily as shallow a reason as it first seems. When gaming is your number one hobby and specific titles (or even the hobby as a whole) becomes something very personal to you, any sort of criticism just carries an extra bite. The game(s) are part of you and if someone is criticizing the game(s) then they are actually criticizing you and this is only amplified if you're in s position or mindset where you can't even see or understand the reasoning for any criticism at all. It just feels like you're being personally attacked out of nowhere.

Think of it like if you have an uncle who's an obnoxious drunk but who you're really close to and who is really nice to you. Someone starts criticizing your uncle and at first you don't even see what they're talking about. He's a nice guy and he's always treated you well. Then they keep at it and it starts feeling like they're not just criticizing your uncle but you and your entire family, maybe even adding that you yourself have an issue because you can't see that there's even a problem to begin with.

Some times what's needed is to be able to step outside of the box that you're in and look at things from a wider perspective. Accept that if enough people are criticizing something with pretty much the same shared complaints then maybe they at least have a point even if you can't see/feel the problem yourself.
 

Something Amyss

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DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Unfortunately, that requires empathy for others. And from what I can tell, on the internet, this is a really bad thing.
 

Phasmal

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NuclearKangaroo said:
bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already
The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.

Zachary Amaranth said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Unfortunately, that requires empathy for others. And from what I can tell, on the internet, this is a really bad thing.
Also this.
Things are not only `political` when they include people who are not the game `standard`, they're political when they DON'T.

I'm tired of the cowardly attitude we collectively have as gamers to these issues. It's really sad.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Phasmal said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already
The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.
the weird thing is, they dont seem to be in other media

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/635/8d7.png_large

before you attempt to make any criticsm you should question yourself, "would this make the artist work better? does its absence make it worse?"

whats why saying, "the Mona Lisa needs a moustache" is not a valid criticism, thats just something that you want
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Angelblaze said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Edit: I misread your original post - I agree :D

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.
fallout new vegas has those

and you can see some in just cause 2 as well
 

cainejw

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I find myself stricken by how many of you think you have the right, if not basis, to psychoanalyze people. We have declarations that criticism of gaming is an affront to ego defenses. The evidence? Who really knows.

This underpins the largest issue with current critical approaches. Critical social change theories are, except for a singular theory, not as popular as they once were. Conflict theory, structural theory, and biological theory really aren't as prolific as they once were. However, feminist theory is very prolific if not majorly ineffective since the 70s and Roe v Wade. Which, quite interestingly, radical critical feminism arose in that time and came to the forefront.

Which brings me to what I believe is the problem. I do not believe that Anita Sarkeesian is the problem. I think the theory and the methods of argumentation are the problem, and she's very aware of it. Radical critical feminism requires men be hostile to women's rights and intentions--the patriarchy. Men must be. If they are not, there cannot be a gendered inequality exacerbated by institutional bias against women. This remains a weakness of radical feminism, and it is very well documented as a weakness.

So, Anita often has to bring in alternate fields to discuss her point; you can't just say "Men hate women. Goodnight!" Radical critical feminism identifies the problem (the trope) and then another field addresses it--philosophy's subject/object problem, communication's transactional communication theory, and mass communication's third person effect hypothesis which applies psychology's illusory superiority or superiority bias. None of this is in itself an issue, but it does cause Sarkeesian to occasionally reach outside of her educational background.

That results in Sarkeesian often misapplying the concepts. Subject/object does not stipulate that men do, women are. That is feminism's lens of the argument. Subject/object deals with the existence of objects outside of the subject's perception. Women can, in fact, be subjects. Communication is not transactional of men speaking to women who must then exist; communication is multidimensional and occurs on multiple levels with interactions often being cybernetic in nature.

However, she never talks about the weaknesses of these arguments. Instead, they are presented as ironclad by the nature of the argument itself. This leads the consumer with questions they cannot ask as Sarkeesian has walled herself off. It can be argued as to the necessity of doing so, but the effect is the communication pattern that she uses and decries:

Communication becomes transactional. She speaks, we react. She does, we are.

None of this is a criticism of her as a person. I reserve that to others. However, radical critical feminism is not strong enough to hold up its own arguments. It has to borrow from outside the field. When concepts are borrowed, they're often borrowed incorrectly. They're then presented in a matter-of-fact style with no method of correction and no mechanism for correction to be delivered with the same impact. This is how the method is the problem.

Then add in the theory has weaknesses that are never discussed, the utilization of "sexist" or "misogynist" as some as a tool of silencing criticism, and the fact that feminism is probably the only critical theory currently being utilized in examining games and you have a lightning rod of unreasonable discussion. The theory is flawed at its roots, the information presented is flawed, and the method of presentation is flawed. Noting any of this, however, can often land you with the Scarlet M for misogynist.

How to fix it? Simple: have more theoretical approaches to criticizing video games. Technical criticisms are always welcomed. So are critical theories. We've yet to see someone using post-modernism, metamodernism, humanism, cognitivism, behavioralism, etc to look at games. This will naturally balance the very negative view of the world that radical feminism requires.

We also need fewer armchair psychoanalysis. Most of you don't have a high enough degree to do what you're trying to do. You're intellectualizing your opinions of people via jargon. Stop it. Stop generalizing that people respond to the criticism by seeing it as a personal affront and a failure of their ego defenses. You don't know that, and it is exacerbating the problem by saying, "You criticized? Well, it's clearly because you're weak and have a problem."

And for the love of all that's good in the world, stop using -isms as an insult to shut people up. It waters down actual -isms. You know, stuff like knocking the crap out of women because they should listen, voting on the rights of LGBT people, forcing men into particular gender roles because they seem macho, and shutting down medical access for women because of a personal opinion? Those are -isms. They are all signs of systemic, institutional problems in our society that bias against a group.

Edit: As for the "games are art so need criticism" discussion, art criticism is on the art itself utilizing particular technical terms. You'll occasionally read about the medium, strokes, author's perceived message, and so forth. However, I've never heard of a "feminist art critic" who only looks at art through the lens of radical feminism nearly exclusively. Feminist art critics existed in the 70s, but they're relativity few and far between today.

Feminist art criticism may be present, but often it's accompanied by something more than just the patriarchy in terms of technical ability. So using art criticism here is rather dishonest.

Instead, we should probably talk about this criticism as popular criticism. Many of these arguments are applied to popular media. That's why many of those who criticize these media are mass communication majors focusing on magazines, movies, comics, TV shows, and video games--mass media. Art isn't a mass media, so using it as a lynch pin of why we need mass media criticism isn't exactly translatable.
 

Something Amyss

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Phasmal said:
Also this.
Things are not only `political` when they include people who are not the game `standard`, they're political when they DON'T.

I'm tired of the cowardly attitude we collectively have as gamers to these issues. It's really sad.
I remember people flipping out over Lara's cup size being "downgraded" in the Tomb Raider reboot. I mean, we're told this stuff doesn't matter, and then people get angry anyway. It wouldn't be so frustrating if it weren't so damn transparent.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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LifeCharacter said:
Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.
if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?

LifeCharacter said:
Bullshit it's not. If I don't like something I'll openly tell someone I don't like that thing, especially when that someone is trying to sell it to me. Their artistic integrity (as much as you can call the design-by-comittee, appeal to a wider, straighter, whiter, maler audience development process as having integrity) is worthless to me, their potential customer. The only thing that matters to me is if what they're making is something I want, and, if I don't want it, I'm going to tell them so and explain why so they can do better next time.

If these people wanted total, uncompromising artistic integrity and freedom, they shouldn't have made a career out of being an artist, especially one who is employed to help create a commercial product.
then we will have to disagree, it is not ok to shame people for their artistic choices

like the people who asked for the censorship of piss christ, and this is comming from a christian

also i disagree with the opinion that since an artist cant have 100% artistic integrity he shouldnt have any
 

runequester

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NuclearKangaroo said:
LifeCharacter said:
Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.
if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?
Are you talking about a character that is sexist or a sexist portrayal of a character?

Those are not at all the same.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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runequester said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
LifeCharacter said:
Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.
if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?
Are you talking about a character that is sexist or a sexist portrayal of a character?

Those are not at all the same.
my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story
 

NuclearKangaroo

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LifeCharacter said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?
And who gets to decide what makes the piece of art better? You? Me? The artist?

As for the second part, I'll assume you mean "sexist" in the sense that they are a sexist portrayal of something and not a character who is themselves sexist, and say that it depends on the context and the game. One woman who's weak and helpless and in need of saving doesn't really mean much when there's a bunch of other, capable women saving her.
so sexism is a zero sum equation?

btw my point is, criticism a game got being sexism is like criticism Michelangelo's David for public indecency, in essense i guess it doesnt even look like you are critizing the work of art itself, but rather the message you THINK it delivers

LifeCharacter said:
Here's a question. If you were an artist and you thought something you made was really amazing and that everyone would love it, but when you try to sell it a bunch of people tell you it's not very good, wouldn't you feel a bit of shame? "Shaming an artist" amounts to telling an artist his work isn't as great as they think it is, and I have no problem smashing their delusions and telling them that if they want me to buy it they should do better.
but you the thing is, his work is not bad, you just dont like it, and you are trying to shame him for that

LifeCharacter said:
And you act like having an artist dress women as something other than strippers is removing the entirety of their artistic integrity and agency. Last time I checked they still get to design it how they want, they just have some restrictions... kind of like every other commercial artist.
censorship is good for nobody

back to the piss christ example, that shit IS offensive, i feel offended, should we now ask artist to not portray religion in a bad light?
 

runequester

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NuclearKangaroo said:
my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story
They really aren't the same though. Bioshock Infinite has been given as an example: The game revolves heavily around racism and religious fanaticism but it isn't advocating either.
On the flipside, if a game had no black characters at all despite being set in say, modern day US or only portrayed black characters as gun-toting thugs, that would make it racist or at least heavily suspect.

Those are incredibly different things.

Artistic merit is great but in the vast vast vast majority of video games, the artist is being paid to create a work that they were commissioned to do. They may like, dislike or not care about the topic but it's a paid job.

Any views are going to be those of the writers, publishers and developers, not whichever artist happened to draw a paycheck from that game.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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runequester said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story
They really aren't the same though. Bioshock Infinite has been given as an example: The game revolves heavily around racism and religious fanaticism but it isn't advocating either.
On the flipside, if a game had no black characters at all despite being set in say, modern day US or only portrayed black characters as gun-toting thugs, that would make it racist or at least heavily suspect.

Those are incredibly different things.

Artistic merit is great but in the vast vast vast majority of video games, the artist is being paid to create a work that they were commissioned to do. They may like, dislike or not care about the topic but it's a paid job.

Any views are going to be those of the writers, publishers and developers, not whichever artist happened to draw a paycheck from that game.
just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out
 

runequester

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NuclearKangaroo said:
just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises
An artist for a video game doesn't make compromises. They draw, animate and create what they are being paid to draw, animate or create.

If a bunch of people got mad about the art in a game and the publisher said to stick with the art, then the art stays. See the debacle about Diablo 3 being "too bright".

If people got mad and the publisher decides its more trouble to their bottom line, then the art gets changed EVEN if the artist preferred the original style.

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out
I don't care what some one said on the internet at some point about a game though.


If you don't feel racism (for example) would make a game worse, then we have different tastes and that's fine. But realize that for many people that is not the case.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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runequester said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises
An artist for a video game doesn't make compromises. They draw, animate and create what they are being paid to draw, animate or create.

If a bunch of people got mad about the art in a game and the publisher said to stick with the art, then the art stays. See the debacle about Diablo 3 being "too bright".

If people got mad and the publisher decides its more trouble to their bottom line, then the art gets changed EVEN if the artist preferred the original style.

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out
I don't care what some one said on the internet at some point about a game though.


If you don't feel racism (for example) would make a game worse, then we have different tastes and that's fine. But realize that for many people that is not the case.
just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every major work of art ever was comissioned

heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racist film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."
 

runequester

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NuclearKangaroo said:
just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every majpr work of art ever was comissioned
I'm not saying it's not art. I'm saying that artistic integrity has little to do with it, because decisions about art in games are done for financial reasons.

If a publisher decides they can make more money from sexualized art, they will. If they decide they can make more money from non-sexual art, they will.


heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racism film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."
You can. I just don't think it's very enjoyable to watch. Hence, it has less value to me as a consumer.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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runequester said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every majpr work of art ever was comissioned
I'm not saying it's not art. I'm saying that artistic integrity has little to do with it, because decisions about art in games are done for financial reasons.

If a publisher decides they can make more money from sexualized art, they will. If they decide they can make more money from non-sexual art, they will.
theres some truth in that, but even then there are time when artists are given some space to breathe, or when their work isnt held down by publishers, and people still shame em for their artistic choices, look at skullgirls

runequester said:
heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racism film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."
You can. I just don't think it's very enjoyable to watch. Hence, it has less value to me as a consumer.
oh ok i get it now, yeah thats an acceptable position
 

runequester

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theres some truth in that, but even then there are time when artists are given some space to breathe, or when their work isnt held down by publishers, and people still shame em for their artistic choices, look at skullgirls
With indie dev's, it's a different thing at times, since the artist may be a partner in the game, rather than "just" being hired on. Though most of this talk tends to be about AAA games I think.

oh ok i get it now, yeah thats an acceptable position
We were probably just talking past each other for a while there :)

I need to go get some breakfast and do something constructive with my day, so you have a great day.
 

BadNewDingus

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I think it's because the stupid internet with all the different stats on subjects that no one really knows anything about.
 

Continuity

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I think its because the criticism is in our faces. Gamers are much more likely to consume criticism than the readers/viewers etc of those other mediums, and this is because gamers have a loose internet based community centred around websites like this one, which are essentially platforms for critics. The other factor is of course internet = dumb shit.