Why are we afraid of criticism?

Aug 1, 2010
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As someone who feels exactly this way, I can explain in a few words: It has become pointless and boring.

The current discussions and topics have been the same for so long that they are no longer going anywhere. Neither side of any of the arguments has really gained any ground or made any truly good points in a long time.

It's completely stagnant. No opinions are being changed. No content is being significantly affected.

I feel no shame is wishing for fewer boring things.
 

QuietlyListening

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I wouldn't say that nothing good has come of it. Look at the Steve Jaros' response to the feminism argument: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/saints-row-dev-responds-to-feminist-frequency-crit/1100-6422014/

Second, there's a difference between being bored with the debate and making a boring game (because of social justice??).

Lastly, if you're tired of hearing about the issue, imagine how tired the people are who have to live these issues. If you're not a white male, how many games do you have to play before you start finding characters that represent you? If you're a woman, how many games do you have to play until you stop seeing your gender being used as a standard for helplessness and objectification? I can't even imagine how exhausting that must be.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
play a different game?
Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.
listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with
If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.
i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices
 

NuclearKangaroo

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nuclearday said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with
Just myself, I think it's plain faulty criticism to define a negative trait and then apply, in broad strokes, a negative value judgement on any example that has that trait. It's ignoring the nuance that art is supposed to have.

I think the worst thing Anita Sarkeesian did was end up framing this debate in absolutes, intentionally or not. (And really it applies to all of video game criticism, I think.) And there's also something to said for faulty of logic of applying macro critical analysis to micro.

For example, if I were to say "not every female character should be sexually objectified" I don't think that's a terribly controversial view. I don't think many people want every every woman character in every game to be unbelievably proportioned and wearing nothing but a chainmail g-string. But that also doesn't mean I would think every instance of an objectified woman is an innately evil thing regardless of context.

For one, I think how something is presented is incredibly important, and often gets left out of these discussions altogether; or what purpose that element serves to the overall gestalt, not to mention what the creator was trying to say or what stylistic choices they were making.

The Witcher, for example, has very strong, sexually empowered women in it. Characters that are neither token additions for the mere sake of inclusivity or one-note cardboard cutouts that serve no other purpose or have no agency of their own. Rather, characters with depth and dimension and an internal life.

But the game also definitely objectifies females - I can't call an optional collection quest where you get a naughty trading card for sleeping with these characters anything other than objectification, right?

But I still thought it was a good game (still haven't got around to playing #2.) There's a degree of nuance that is lost if I start to bring in hyperbole or polarize the views about the game.

I feel rampant objectification of women isn't a good thing. But that doesn't mean I was offended with The Witcher, even though it has that element. Partly because I think the game possessed a degree of self-awareness and maturity when dealing with these subjects. If I were to denounce the entire game as "Sexist" because of some elements taken out of context, then I'm overlooking the positive examples that are also to be found in the core of the game.

I think it's important to be able to be critical of something, or even of something that an otherwise fine game contains; but still be able to appreciate it for what it is. I mean, Fallout 3 wasn't the "true Fallout sequel" I'd been wanting for a long time - but because I have some misgivings about the path the game took doesn't mean I think it's a terrible game. I might say I don't like Quick Time Events, but that doesn't mean I can't still really like Heavy Rain.
another example that comes to mind

EVA from MGS3, the makes constant sexual advances to the player, is shown to be promiscuous, her attire is revealing and most of the time is shown in a disempowered position, however:

at the end of the game, she is revealed to be a chinese spy, she uses her looks and perceived vulnerability to climb the soviet chain of command until she gets to volgin himself, she also uses her tricks agaisnt the snake, stealing sensitive information from him and at one point almost killing him while he was asleep, the ONLY reason why snake didnt die right there and then, was because EVA made a promise to The Boss

and yet im sure anita would shit all over her for being "sexualized" despite the fact thats the whole fucking point

and as far as other media goes, theres Yoko from the anime Gurren Lagann, you know how some shows have comic relief? Yoko is boob relief, she has a huge pair of melons, and almost every shot taken of her tries to accentuate her body, to the point it might get a bit unconfortable for some people, me included, but you know what? it doesnt matter, shes still a damn good character, and at the end of the series you will probably feel bad for her due to all the shit she had to endure
 

Netrigan

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I'm not sure if people are afraid of criticism, it's they've never learned how to read it.

At its core, it's one person's opinion. That opinion may be horribly uninformed, it might be highly educated, but it's still just an opinion. The idea that even something like Transformers is objectively awful or Citizen Kane is objectively good is ludicrous. We can admire or deride the amount of skill put into constructing something, but that doesn't make it enjoyable.

As far as Social Criticism go. They're just one of those facts of life. Every group, even straight, white men complain about their treatment in media. Rush Limbaugh is as much a Social Critic as Anita Sarkeesian. If they can make their case compellingly enough, they can alter the way their group is portrayed.
 

Angelblaze

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DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Edit: I misread your original post - I agree :D

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.
 

runequester

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Angelblaze said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Edit: I misread your original post - I agree :D

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.
Ultima 7 and Neverwinter nights come to mind. Not a ton else but maybe someone else can fill in?
 

DementedSheep

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NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
play a different game?
Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.
listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with
If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.
i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices
The end result of what attitude? o right that things like lazy shitty writing and gender portrayal can be criticised and talked about because criticism = censorship when it things you don't care about. Artist integrity in big AAA games? yeah, right! Artistic integrity is flimsy shield in the first place and large game compactness aren't about "artistic integrity". As I said before they already designed to attract players.
 

Erttheking

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Angelblaze said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Edit: I misread your original post - I agree :D

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.
There's sort of a character like that in The Wolf Among Us called Hans...sort of. He's a bouncer at a strip club but his entry in the character logbook says he'd much rather be up on stage. He gets like two lines of dialogue though, a shame really. The club he was at clearly looked like it was designed to pander to both genders, what with the posters of sexy men everywhere, and Wolf Among Us actually did a really good job writing engaging sex worker characters. Aw well, maybe in season 2.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
play a different game?
Oh hey, the typical dismissive reply that can be levied at literally any criticism of a game. Don't know why we even have video game form since talking about games and thing you liked/didn't like in a game is apparently not allowed, at least not when that criticism is deemed feminist.
listen, what im saying is, if a game is not fun for you, dont play it, its simply a game that DOES NOT APPEAL TO YOU

and its fine, because it happens, in other forms of art as well, some works simply do not appeal to you, that doesnt make the work any worse

a "sexist" character does not make a game worse, there are weak, submissive and promiscuous women just like there are weak, submissive and promiscuous men

a character can be any of that and still be a good character, because those are traits a writer can work with
If I never played any games that I have criticism for or that have some aspect that impacts negatively on my fun I would never play any games and its not like this shit is always advertised on the box. They don't put a warning on them saying "hey if you don't want to feel like shit because of your gender today don't play this game because all the women in it are going to be dead weight victims and whores" or "that female character you foolishly got your hopes up about is going to do fuck all and be damseled".

A lot its down to shitty wining, laziness and lack of thought anyway not some artist or planned thing. It dose make the game worse even if you don't personally care and most criticisms are going to be in some way subjective, that doesn't make them not valid criticism. A lot games are full of things put in there specifically designed to appeal to potential players and because that is what marketing thinks people want. Why is such an issue to to point out how some these things aren't exactly nice for some your player base, might turn them off and might put across some pretty awful messages especially when its repeated across a lot of games? and that people other than white males exist and play games so you should maybe think about it a little bit when you are designing characters and especially with customization options? why not have dialogue about that? If the developers still want to do whatever or can't be assed putting in some effort they are going do that anyway.
Just not playing the games and voting with your wallet doesn't work because unless you say what you want its open to many different interpretations. Buying a game with X doesn't mean you like X. It can mean you like everything else enough to play it anyway. Just like not buying a game with Y doesn't mean you don't like Y. It might have other issues.
i said if you are not having fun, if you are go ahead and play

in my humble opinion i think this stance is bad for a plendora of reasons, i already mentioned artistic integrity and how a character can be great regardless of how "sexist" it is

but you just reminded me of the end result of this attitude, the reason why, atleast according to the law in my country, "bellic" games are banned over here, is because of mercenaries 2, the game takes place in venezuela and you can blow shit up, aparently that hurt the feeling of the guys calling the shots over here and BAM!, they threw a blanket statement and banned pretty much all violent games, thankfully most people dont give 2 shits about this ban... except for Take-Two, which makes buying almost any game they publish an absolute freakin' nightmare

also im not white and i never gave a shit about who i am playing as in a video game

let me add that there are probably just as many tropes agaisnt women as there are agaisnt men, there are damsels in distress, there are meathead angry and impulsive males, its fine if the game gives you an option to play as a female, but sometimes the devs wants you to play as a male exlcusively, or as a female exclusively, and thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative you shouldnt have an issue with it, sometimes the dev wants to have a women being captured and needs to be rescued, thats OK if it makes sense within the narrative, sometimes a game has sex workers in it, and again thats OK, if it makes sense within the narrative

im not a woman, i wont pretent to know exactly how you feel, hell i might never know your level of indignation, so i really wont ask you to not be offended, that being said i want you to understand having a "sexist" character, does not affect the quality of a game, a game is not a worse game for having one, now, if you want to keep playing these games, you can deal with the artistic changes the dev makes, you can maybe offer a suggestion via a letter to the dev and they could consider your input in the future, but do NOT shame devs for their artistic choices
The end result of what attitude? o right that things like lazy shitty writing and gender portrayal can be criticised and talked about because criticism = censorship when it things you don't care about. Artist integrity in big AAA games? yeah, right! Artistic integrity is flimsy shield in the first place and large game compactness aren't about "artistic integrity". As I said before they already designed to attract players.
then why a developer of divinity original sin was forced to change a character he designed and he wanted to make?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

they are hardly AAA

"Recent events and a large exposure to unhealthy criticism had gotten me thinking and checking with my fellow artists. I'm sure people will say that as an artist we should learn how to deal with harsh and often unfair criticism, as if this is mandatory to being an artist. Yet at the same time artists have to be more and more careful of all those people out there we might possibly offend.

In a lot of ways you're forced to self-censorship when it comes to publishing your work."


it wouldnt be fair for me to ask the creator of twilight to stop making vampires so girly, just like it wouldnt be fair to ask the creator of rambo to make him wear a dress

artist integrity is a real thing, and i firmly believe it should be respected

plus if we are going to take the "they just want to attract players" route, on PC atleast, non-casual players make up from 76% to 80% of the playerbase, why would they risk alineating their playerbase?

bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already

 

runequester

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then why a developer of divinity original sin was forced to change a character he designed and he wanted to make?

http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

they are hardly AAA

"Recent events and a large exposure to unhealthy criticism had gotten me thinking and checking with my fellow artists. I'm sure people will say that as an artist we should learn how to deal with harsh and often unfair criticism, as if this is mandatory to being an artist. Yet at the same time artists have to be more and more careful of all those people out there we might possibly offend.

In a lot of ways you're forced to self-censorship when it comes to publishing your work."


it wouldnt be fair for me to ask the creator of twilight to stop making vampires so girly, just like it wouldnt be fair to ask the creator of rambo to make him wear a dress

artist integrity is a real thing, and i firmly believe it should be respected
Isn't that simply a marketing decision though? No one actually forced any one to do anything. They got a lot of flak and decided the game would be less likely to sell, hence they changed their art style.

What actual, legal force could a bunch of angry people on the internet have brought to bear on the game developer if they had kept the boobs?
We're not exactly talking about the FCC here.
 

StriderShinryu

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MarsAtlas said:
Reason 2: They feel that criticism of the game is criticism of them as a person.
This is pretty much the biggest reason, but it's not necessarily as shallow a reason as it first seems. When gaming is your number one hobby and specific titles (or even the hobby as a whole) becomes something very personal to you, any sort of criticism just carries an extra bite. The game(s) are part of you and if someone is criticizing the game(s) then they are actually criticizing you and this is only amplified if you're in s position or mindset where you can't even see or understand the reasoning for any criticism at all. It just feels like you're being personally attacked out of nowhere.

Think of it like if you have an uncle who's an obnoxious drunk but who you're really close to and who is really nice to you. Someone starts criticizing your uncle and at first you don't even see what they're talking about. He's a nice guy and he's always treated you well. Then they keep at it and it starts feeling like they're not just criticizing your uncle but you and your entire family, maybe even adding that you yourself have an issue because you can't see that there's even a problem to begin with.

Some times what's needed is to be able to step outside of the box that you're in and look at things from a wider perspective. Accept that if enough people are criticizing something with pretty much the same shared complaints then maybe they at least have a point even if you can't see/feel the problem yourself.
 

Something Amyss

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DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Unfortunately, that requires empathy for others. And from what I can tell, on the internet, this is a really bad thing.
 

Phasmal

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NuclearKangaroo said:
bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already
The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.

Zachary Amaranth said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Unfortunately, that requires empathy for others. And from what I can tell, on the internet, this is a really bad thing.
Also this.
Things are not only `political` when they include people who are not the game `standard`, they're political when they DON'T.

I'm tired of the cowardly attitude we collectively have as gamers to these issues. It's really sad.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Phasmal said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already
The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.
the weird thing is, they dont seem to be in other media

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/826/635/8d7.png_large

before you attempt to make any criticsm you should question yourself, "would this make the artist work better? does its absence make it worse?"

whats why saying, "the Mona Lisa needs a moustache" is not a valid criticism, thats just something that you want
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Angelblaze said:
DementedSheep said:
What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you ever consider that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?
Edit: I misread your original post - I agree :D

I would personally love to see a male sex worker character, for example.
fallout new vegas has those

and you can see some in just cause 2 as well
 

cainejw

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Sep 6, 2008
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I find myself stricken by how many of you think you have the right, if not basis, to psychoanalyze people. We have declarations that criticism of gaming is an affront to ego defenses. The evidence? Who really knows.

This underpins the largest issue with current critical approaches. Critical social change theories are, except for a singular theory, not as popular as they once were. Conflict theory, structural theory, and biological theory really aren't as prolific as they once were. However, feminist theory is very prolific if not majorly ineffective since the 70s and Roe v Wade. Which, quite interestingly, radical critical feminism arose in that time and came to the forefront.

Which brings me to what I believe is the problem. I do not believe that Anita Sarkeesian is the problem. I think the theory and the methods of argumentation are the problem, and she's very aware of it. Radical critical feminism requires men be hostile to women's rights and intentions--the patriarchy. Men must be. If they are not, there cannot be a gendered inequality exacerbated by institutional bias against women. This remains a weakness of radical feminism, and it is very well documented as a weakness.

So, Anita often has to bring in alternate fields to discuss her point; you can't just say "Men hate women. Goodnight!" Radical critical feminism identifies the problem (the trope) and then another field addresses it--philosophy's subject/object problem, communication's transactional communication theory, and mass communication's third person effect hypothesis which applies psychology's illusory superiority or superiority bias. None of this is in itself an issue, but it does cause Sarkeesian to occasionally reach outside of her educational background.

That results in Sarkeesian often misapplying the concepts. Subject/object does not stipulate that men do, women are. That is feminism's lens of the argument. Subject/object deals with the existence of objects outside of the subject's perception. Women can, in fact, be subjects. Communication is not transactional of men speaking to women who must then exist; communication is multidimensional and occurs on multiple levels with interactions often being cybernetic in nature.

However, she never talks about the weaknesses of these arguments. Instead, they are presented as ironclad by the nature of the argument itself. This leads the consumer with questions they cannot ask as Sarkeesian has walled herself off. It can be argued as to the necessity of doing so, but the effect is the communication pattern that she uses and decries:

Communication becomes transactional. She speaks, we react. She does, we are.

None of this is a criticism of her as a person. I reserve that to others. However, radical critical feminism is not strong enough to hold up its own arguments. It has to borrow from outside the field. When concepts are borrowed, they're often borrowed incorrectly. They're then presented in a matter-of-fact style with no method of correction and no mechanism for correction to be delivered with the same impact. This is how the method is the problem.

Then add in the theory has weaknesses that are never discussed, the utilization of "sexist" or "misogynist" as some as a tool of silencing criticism, and the fact that feminism is probably the only critical theory currently being utilized in examining games and you have a lightning rod of unreasonable discussion. The theory is flawed at its roots, the information presented is flawed, and the method of presentation is flawed. Noting any of this, however, can often land you with the Scarlet M for misogynist.

How to fix it? Simple: have more theoretical approaches to criticizing video games. Technical criticisms are always welcomed. So are critical theories. We've yet to see someone using post-modernism, metamodernism, humanism, cognitivism, behavioralism, etc to look at games. This will naturally balance the very negative view of the world that radical feminism requires.

We also need fewer armchair psychoanalysis. Most of you don't have a high enough degree to do what you're trying to do. You're intellectualizing your opinions of people via jargon. Stop it. Stop generalizing that people respond to the criticism by seeing it as a personal affront and a failure of their ego defenses. You don't know that, and it is exacerbating the problem by saying, "You criticized? Well, it's clearly because you're weak and have a problem."

And for the love of all that's good in the world, stop using -isms as an insult to shut people up. It waters down actual -isms. You know, stuff like knocking the crap out of women because they should listen, voting on the rights of LGBT people, forcing men into particular gender roles because they seem macho, and shutting down medical access for women because of a personal opinion? Those are -isms. They are all signs of systemic, institutional problems in our society that bias against a group.

Edit: As for the "games are art so need criticism" discussion, art criticism is on the art itself utilizing particular technical terms. You'll occasionally read about the medium, strokes, author's perceived message, and so forth. However, I've never heard of a "feminist art critic" who only looks at art through the lens of radical feminism nearly exclusively. Feminist art critics existed in the 70s, but they're relativity few and far between today.

Feminist art criticism may be present, but often it's accompanied by something more than just the patriarchy in terms of technical ability. So using art criticism here is rather dishonest.

Instead, we should probably talk about this criticism as popular criticism. Many of these arguments are applied to popular media. That's why many of those who criticize these media are mass communication majors focusing on magazines, movies, comics, TV shows, and video games--mass media. Art isn't a mass media, so using it as a lynch pin of why we need mass media criticism isn't exactly translatable.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
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Phasmal said:
Also this.
Things are not only `political` when they include people who are not the game `standard`, they're political when they DON'T.

I'm tired of the cowardly attitude we collectively have as gamers to these issues. It's really sad.
I remember people flipping out over Lara's cup size being "downgraded" in the Tomb Raider reboot. I mean, we're told this stuff doesn't matter, and then people get angry anyway. It wouldn't be so frustrating if it weren't so damn transparent.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Feb 7, 2014
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LifeCharacter said:
Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.
if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?

LifeCharacter said:
Bullshit it's not. If I don't like something I'll openly tell someone I don't like that thing, especially when that someone is trying to sell it to me. Their artistic integrity (as much as you can call the design-by-comittee, appeal to a wider, straighter, whiter, maler audience development process as having integrity) is worthless to me, their potential customer. The only thing that matters to me is if what they're making is something I want, and, if I don't want it, I'm going to tell them so and explain why so they can do better next time.

If these people wanted total, uncompromising artistic integrity and freedom, they shouldn't have made a career out of being an artist, especially one who is employed to help create a commercial product.
then we will have to disagree, it is not ok to shame people for their artistic choices

like the people who asked for the censorship of piss christ, and this is comming from a christian

also i disagree with the opinion that since an artist cant have 100% artistic integrity he shouldnt have any