Why are we afraid of criticism?

[runequester]

Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.

if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?

Are you talking about a character that is sexist or a sexist portrayal of a character?

Those are not at all the same.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Artistic integrity is a real thing, it just doesn't get to silence criticism, which is exactly what you're advocating. The artists could have always said "no, we're not gong to change it because mah integrity," but they didn't, because money is apparently far more important to them than their artistic integrity.

if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?

Are you talking about a character that is sexist or a sexist portrayal of a character?

Those are not at all the same.

my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if the criticism does not contribute to making the piece of art better, then yes, artistic integrity is more important

tell me, does having a "sexist" character make a game worse?

And who gets to decide what makes the piece of art better? You? Me? The artist?

As for the second part, I'll assume you mean "sexist" in the sense that they are a sexist portrayal of something and not a character who is themselves sexist, and say that it depends on the context and the game. One woman who's weak and helpless and in need of saving doesn't really mean much when there's a bunch of other, capable women saving her.

so sexism is a zero sum equation?

btw my point is, criticism a game got being sexism is like criticism Michelangelo's David for public indecency, in essense i guess it doesnt even look like you are critizing the work of art itself, but rather the message you THINK it delivers

Here's a question. If you were an artist and you thought something you made was really amazing and that everyone would love it, but when you try to sell it a bunch of people tell you it's not very good, wouldn't you feel a bit of shame? "Shaming an artist" amounts to telling an artist his work isn't as great as they think it is, and I have no problem smashing their delusions and telling them that if they want me to buy it they should do better.

but you the thing is, his work is not bad, you just dont like it, and you are trying to shame him for that

And you act like having an artist dress women as something other than strippers is removing the entirety of their artistic integrity and agency. Last time I checked they still get to design it how they want, they just have some restrictions... kind of like every other commercial artist.

censorship is good for nobody

back to the piss christ example, that shit IS offensive, i feel offended, should we now ask artist to not portray religion in a bad light?

 

[runequester]

my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story

They really aren't the same though. Bioshock Infinite has been given as an example: The game revolves heavily around racism and religious fanaticism but it isn't advocating either.
On the flipside, if a game had no black characters at all despite being set in say, modern day US or only portrayed black characters as gun-toting thugs, that would make it racist or at least heavily suspect.

Those are incredibly different things.

Artistic merit is great but in the vast vast vast majority of video games, the artist is being paid to create a work that they were commissioned to do. They may like, dislike or not care about the topic but it's a paid job.

Any views are going to be those of the writers, publishers and developers, not whichever artist happened to draw a paycheck from that game.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

my statement applies to both

i dont see the problem with portraying some women as weak and promiscuous, because there ARE some weak women and some promiscuous women, just like there are weak and promiscuous men, and i dont have a problem when those are portrayed either

these are all traits a writer can use to build a character, so just because a character is portrayed in a "sexist" way, doesnt mean its a bad character, just look at EVA from MGS3 or Bayonetta

but if the character ends up being bland, by all means critize the character for being bland, bland characters can harm a good story, this is a valid criticism, is a legitimate fault of the game, just dont try to turn the whole thing into a sexism scandal


an artist is free to represent his/her work in any way he/she wants, now if the end result is any good thats a different story

They really aren't the same though. Bioshock Infinite has been given as an example: The game revolves heavily around racism and religious fanaticism but it isn't advocating either.
On the flipside, if a game had no black characters at all despite being set in say, modern day US or only portrayed black characters as gun-toting thugs, that would make it racist or at least heavily suspect.

Those are incredibly different things.

Artistic merit is great but in the vast vast vast majority of video games, the artist is being paid to create a work that they were commissioned to do. They may like, dislike or not care about the topic but it's a paid job.

Any views are going to be those of the writers, publishers and developers, not whichever artist happened to draw a paycheck from that game.

just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out

 

[runequester]

just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises

An artist for a video game doesn't make compromises. They draw, animate and create what they are being paid to draw, animate or create.

If a bunch of people got mad about the art in a game and the publisher said to stick with the art, then the art stays. See the debacle about Diablo 3 being "too bright".

If people got mad and the publisher decides its more trouble to their bottom line, then the art gets changed EVEN if the artist preferred the original style.

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out

I don't care what some one said on the internet at some point about a game though.


If you don't feel racism (for example) would make a game worse, then we have different tastes and that's fine. But realize that for many people that is not the case.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

just because an artist has to make some compromises doesnt mean he must make ALL the compromises

An artist for a video game doesn't make compromises. They draw, animate and create what they are being paid to draw, animate or create.

If a bunch of people got mad about the art in a game and the publisher said to stick with the art, then the art stays. See the debacle about Diablo 3 being "too bright".

If people got mad and the publisher decides its more trouble to their bottom line, then the art gets changed EVEN if the artist preferred the original style.

as for your racism example, if the game is good, it wouldnt make it any worse, but obviously the dev would end up alineating its audience

remember thats the same logic they used to discredit RE5 before it was even out

I don't care what some one said on the internet at some point about a game though.


If you don't feel racism (for example) would make a game worse, then we have different tastes and that's fine. But realize that for many people that is not the case.

just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every major work of art ever was comissioned

heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racist film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."

 

[runequester]

just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every majpr work of art ever was comissioned

I'm not saying it's not art. I'm saying that artistic integrity has little to do with it, because decisions about art in games are done for financial reasons.

If a publisher decides they can make more money from sexualized art, they will. If they decide they can make more money from non-sexual art, they will.

heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racism film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."

You can. I just don't think it's very enjoyable to watch. Hence, it has less value to me as a consumer.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

just cause they get paid for it and have to follow some guide lines it doesnt mean its not art

nearly every majpr work of art ever was comissioned

I'm not saying it's not art. I'm saying that artistic integrity has little to do with it, because decisions about art in games are done for financial reasons.

If a publisher decides they can make more money from sexualized art, they will. If they decide they can make more money from non-sexual art, they will.

theres some truth in that, but even then there are time when artists are given some space to breathe, or when their work isnt held down by publishers, and people still shame em for their artistic choices, look at skullgirls

heres the thing, if film critics can appreciate the birth of a nation for its innovative film techniques at the time, despite being a racism film, why cant we do the same?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation

"Despite the film's controversial content, Griffith's innovative film techniques make it one of the most influential films in the commercial film industry, and it is often ranked as one of the greatest American films of all time."

You can. I just don't think it's very enjoyable to watch. Hence, it has less value to me as a consumer.

oh ok i get it now, yeah thats an acceptable position

 

[runequester]

theres some truth in that, but even then there are time when artists are given some space to breathe, or when their work isnt held down by publishers, and people still shame em for their artistic choices, look at skullgirls

With indie dev's, it's a different thing at times, since the artist may be a partner in the game, rather than "just" being hired on. Though most of this talk tends to be about AAA games I think.

oh ok i get it now, yeah thats an acceptable position

We were probably just talking past each other for a while there

I need to go get some breakfast and do something constructive with my day, so you have a great day.

 

[BadNewDingus]

I think it's because the stupid internet with all the different stats on subjects that no one really knows anything about.

 

[Continuity]

I think its because the criticism is in our faces. Gamers are much more likely to consume criticism than the readers/viewers etc of those other mediums, and this is because gamers have a loose internet based community centred around websites like this one, which are essentially platforms for critics. The other factor is of course internet = dumb shit.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

theres some truth in that, but even then there are time when artists are given some space to breathe, or when their work isnt held down by publishers, and people still shame em for their artistic choices, look at skullgirls

With indie dev's, it's a different thing at times, since the artist may be a partner in the game, rather than "just" being hired on. Though most of this talk tends to be about AAA games I think.

i try to hold them to more or less to the same standard, because we dont really know the degree of freedom people in AAA studios have, some are, like you say, very restricted, but others are given more freedom to do what they want, and i think that freedom is worth defending

oh ok i get it now, yeah thats an acceptable position

We were probably just talking past each other for a while there

I need to go get some breakfast and do something constructive with my day, so you have a great day.

yeah, and i need to program a very important assignment, and here i am talking about video games, good luck with your constructiveness bro

 

[gargantual]

To all those jumping on @NuclearKangaroo. He and those artists are not afraid of criticism. Critique at its most effective understands and seeks to enrich what an artist intends to express, rather than suggest something different for different tastes, when different tastes are not the prime audience.


What he is addressing is prejudice, overwhelming bias, and inconsiderate generalizations laced into critique. The word critique has become a shield for the previous three. Much art can offend us. But it is important to separate personal opinion from objective critique of art. Some you might perceive to be offended by it, might actually really like, and see different values in what you cast as culturally low-brow.

Sturgeon's Law applies.

 

[Billy the Squid]

Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?

That's assuming the criticism that some publications are producing isn't a complete pile of sensationalist rubbish, without a shred of logic or evidence to hold that criticism up in the face of examination while claiming criticism of it is harassment and sexism.

Making the assumption that all criticism is worth even recognizing, works on the assumption that every person should be listened to equally regardless of whether they're idiots or not. Don't you see a problem with that? I do not listen to the criticism of some fool on a topic which they are woefully misinformed or simply want to push an agenda irrespective of evidence available to the contrary, are you saying that we should listen to that and treat it as legitimate, not someone ranting on their proverbial soap box?

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

It's probably because some of the criticism makes you out to be Hitler for liking it. Sure, probably not what they are intending but.

Say you think a game is racist, sexist, ableist, misogynist, misandrist, etc. Their are people who are fans of said game. Kind makes it seem like you're talking about them.

 

[wAriot]

bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already

The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.

I just want to say that I agree with you, artists should be criticized.
However, calling them names, harassing them on Twitter, Facebook or whatever, and flooding them with messages literally DEMANDING a change, is not criticism, and should not be accepted or allowed.

This works for both sides (talking about extremes here), by the way. We always see those "misogynistic gamers" who don't want no feminism in their vidya games, but the other side of the spectrum is just as toxic (I really dislike that word), but since they are the "good guys", everyone ignores their threats and insults. And that is not okay.

And I'm pretty sure that's what NuclearKangaroo meant with "shaming developers".

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

bottom line:

there are female characters and there are male characters and thats OK, you may want more of either and its perfectly fine to contact devs telling them they should consider that in the future, it is NOT OK to shame developers for their artistic decisions

lets just play video games already

The `Just shut up about it/why cant you just be cool about it` defence.

No.

These conversations are not going away.
Artists can and SHOULD be subject to criticism, they are not made of glass. This line of argument is extremely weak and pretty much just tone policing.

I just want to say that I agree with you, artists should be criticized.
However, calling them names, harassing them on Twitter, Facebook or whatever, and flooding them with messages literally DEMANDING a change, is not criticism, and should not be accepted or allowed.

This works for both sides (talking about extremes here), by the way. We always see those "misogynistic gamers" who don't want no feminism in their vidya games, but the other side of the spectrum is just as toxic (I really dislike that word), but since they are the "good guys", everyone ignores their threats and insults. And that is not okay.

And I'm pretty sure that's what NuclearKangaroo meant with "shaming developers".

thats exactly what NuclearKangaroo meant

you can NOT like some artistic decisions a dev made, i even recommend you send him a letter to maybe consider a different approach next time, but that artistic decision doesnt make the game worse and you absolutely should NOT shame and insult and a dev because of it

if a character is bland, cliche and underdeveloped thats more than fair criticism, but arguing she/he is a bad character because she/he is wearing a skimpy suit? come on

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I'm fine with honest constructive criticism. Its when criticism is used to persecute, to back a negative image cause is when I get a bit miffed. I try to stay out of heated discussions because they're liable to turn into a trainwreck of masked contempt, pretentions condescension. Its so sad that we can't have honest discussions that won't turn into flame wars.
I do wish though that things weren't so overblown. I am all for diversity, but I'm also aware that any major change takes time and patience to get the point across. Screaming at the top of your lungs only gets you negative attention up to the point where you lose your voice. Afterward no one remembers what your point was, just that you were the person screaming criticism.
Point being, civility, concise and clear language should be used when you criticize something. Constructive, objective criticism and honesty work so much better than negativity, condescension.