Why are we afraid of criticism?

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aliengmr

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I honestly think this comes from the insecurities gamers faced during the crusade against games in the 90's and early 00's. Back then, "Their coming to get your games." and "censorship" were very real possibilities. And back then, gamers united against any outside threat, imagined or otherwise, and rightly so.

Today is different, much different. Something I almost never see mentioned is the fact that video games are protected speech (speaking of the US). That alone has made them pretty much impossible to "censor", beyond the few "standards" in place for the larger games market. Indies have much more freedom in that respect. I mean, we are talking about challenging a decision the Supreme Court ruled on, you need a little more than some videos about tropes or a blog to take that on.

Now if that were the only obstacle to any sort of "censorship", I'd say games are pretty safe, but we also have the giant multi-billion video game industry to back that up.

On that front, the idea that anyone could force censorship of anything in a game, we are safe, safer than we've ever been.

I believe another part is, which has been mentioned, is that criticism, particularly of a "social" nature, is taken as a personal insult. For me personally this is a foreign concept, and it has led me to be somewhat insensitive to those who feel that way. I don't take what someone like Anita Sarkeesian says about my hobby personally. Nor do I feel ashamed for liking those games even if I agreed to some of her points. Its her opinion and I'm free to agree or disagree as I chose. Nobody should be ashamed for liking a game someone has said was "sexist", "racist", or whatever.

Criticism is just that, criticism. In and of itself it has no real power. The real power is with the developers/publishers and ultimately gamers. That's it. You don't buy a game or kickstart a game, game doesn't get made. This is even more clearly defined with indie games, where the target audience is really the only thing that matters beyond the developer's own creative decisions. They aren't under any real pressure to cater to an audience that has no interest in the game.

If we "gamers" believe we are mature enough to handle serious games we really need to start adjusting how we take criticism. Our games are safe, WE WON! And coming from someone who was very afraid that my game choices would be limited to "Barney and Friends", that feels really good. Say what you want about my hobby, I don't care, in fact I welcome it. If Anita Sarkeesian's videos (or really any other person with an opinion) inspires some developer to try something new or possibly give attention to an under developed character, great, we need this, games need this. Just like they need a developer to say "Yea, that's great, I'm going for boobies and bikini armor, thanks for the input." opinions be damned.

Movies, books, TV, all have had to deal with this and they are still around probably offending someone. Games have just reached that status. Which is what we always wanted. Its time we powered down the shields and allowed games to be taken seriously instead of trying to root out certain types of criticism. As long as games attempt to tackle social issues (of various forms) then that is going to be talked about, just like the other forms of mass media.

I can't stress it enough, criticism is so vital to video games, all forms of it. You can and should continue liking and playing your games despite what criticism is leveled against them. You are not a misogynist for liking The Witcher and the criticism of the "sex cards" produced, what I believe, was a far better way to present the sexual content in The Witcher 2. That's why I welcome this criticism, It challenges developers to do something or solidify why they should not do something different. Both are important.

TL;DR
I understand some of the reactions to criticism, but trying to get rid of it scares me.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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Panda Pandemic said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Panda Pandemic said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Hey, you know what...

This is a funny read to me. Who is afraid? I encounter the criticisms, and I'm unafraid. I point out the faults that I believe said criticism holds, and I'm met with a volley of off-point, distracting shaming language. Glass houses...

What's funny is that my views are actually fairly moderate. Have we considered that maybe the negative reaction to certain ideologically driven criticism is at least somewhat based on the quality of said criticism? Is that a possibility? There are certainly some who behave as though it's unassailable truth.

I'd be interested in talking earnestly with people about a given topic, providing they can refrain from insults and smugness. Nobody need take someones self-assigned-superiority seriously, and it's best kept to yourself.

Ah, fuck it. Let's continue with the amateur grade information warfare. Who wants to take the first crack at misrepresenting me? Oh, I actually think the OP did. That's good, there's no time to waste.
Your post utterly fails to account for the people screaming that those criticizing want censorship etc. They're the most obvious reason to say some are afraid of criticism. But of course if you acknowledged they exist you couldn't take personal offense and call ot a strawman of you...
"Screaming", are they? Yeh, I'm sure they are... It's fucking type, mate. If it's too loud for you, there's not much that can be done. Can you turn down the volume in your head, somehow? This looks an awful lot like a half-arsed attempt at misrepresentation, our word of the day!!!

Dammit!... I forgot to load the balloons and confetti into the trapdoor.
Considering it's typing I'd expect most people to infer it wasn't meant to be literal. It's about demeanor and the irrationality of leaping from criticism to a specific call for action that was never made.

Are you sure that it's "fear" that's driving these people? Are you sure it's not annoyance? To me it feels a lot like I'm annoyed. I don't want to play amateur psychologist for everyone else... But I can't say I've seen much I'd describe as "fearful".
Nothing rational is connecting the criticism received to a call for censorship. Pretty sure it isn't annoyance either.

And worrying about things never said sure seems to lean towards the fearful. When someone is worried people are gonna censor their games based off nothing that comes off as paranoid and a tad fearful
I'm not sure you're being fair there. I don't think the claims are as crazy as people are insisting.

People have been taking videogames head on in this regard for a long time, most definitely directly calling for censorship... And they've all failed.

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-overbytes-dont-censor-me

I think Bob briefly hints at the problem here... In far too simple terms... Before dismissing it entirely. What he refers to as "soft-censorship".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Bob is a valuable resource or anything. Hell, he uses a thoroughly debunked model of the wage gap as a reinforcing point in that very video.

What irks me about Bob's representation here, is that he behaves as though the "conversations" or "discussions" being had, and the ideas within all live-or-die based on their merits. I don't think that's true. It might be true if not for the manipulative nature of media coverage, and inherent ideological biases that keep becoming evident. I don't believe this is a simple clash of ideas, "may the best ones win", I believe this is information warfare, and that untruths are valid if they allow you to win. We're in a situation where critics of the criticism are being characterized as "extreme" despite being relatively apolitical and centralist. Does that make sense? Fuck no, it doesn't. Is it effective? Sadly, yes.

The media coverage isn't just being manipulated by outside sources, it's readily being skewed by those reporting. It's thoroughly fucked. Not only ethically, but also in what it can achieve. Combined with easily led people on social-media propagating what might not be entirely correct views/opinions(read:regurgitating what they're told) and it becomes a big slippery mess of a slope.

I don't know what you call this exactly. I'm pretty sure it wasn't foreseen when "censorship" was being defined in any region. They couldn't have known social-media would arise, increase and potentially weaponise social-power... No "force" necessary.

"The sinister fact about literary censorship in England is that it is
largely voluntary. Unpopular ideas can be silenced, and inconvenient
facts kept dark, without the need for any offcial ban."
George Orwell - proposed, unpublished preface to Animal Farm

Voluntary censorship, that might work. Or "voluntary" censorship might be more appropriate. A situation where deviating views are untenable by way of social pressure and job security.
 

renegade7

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Ultimately, people fear criticism because anything we care about becomes a part of our identity, and we have an emotional "investment" in it. The human psyche will always try to defend changes to its identity, that is, it doesn't want to risk losing its investment.

Basically, it's because there is an inherent bias towards your identity not changing and thinking that it's perfect as it is, and therefore the only reason anyone could criticize something you care about is seen as an attempt to change your identity. So to respond to the perceived threat, the psyche activates a defense mechanism to avoid the cognitive dissonance that would result from having to change that identity.

So the fact that someone might became furious at a social critique of video games indicates that video games are a substantial part of their identity, and that said identity doesn't contain much else to care about. It's basically why "Dude, seriously, get a life" (or "get laid" if you're feeling snarky) is the basic response to someone who becomes enraged due to a bad LoL game.
 

blalien

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What gets me even more is the selective skepticism.

Anita Sarkeesian claims she contacted the police about the harassment: "Nuh uh, some guy on Twitter said he called some policeman in one particular department and the guy said he didn't know anything. What a lying *****!"

Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend claims she slept with five guys in the video games industry: "No guy has ever lied about their ex-girlfriend before! What a cheating whore!"
 

FoolKiller

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MarsAtlas said:
Reason 2: They feel that criticism of the game is criticism of them as a person.

Person A enjoys Call of Duty. Person B says that Call of Duty carries a lot of racist undertones. Person A takes that as meaning "you're racist for enjoying it".
In all fairness to Person A, all too often Person B wants Person A to take it that way.
 

generals3

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Six Ways said:
Personally I don't see how something being a creative production changes anything in regards to whether or not criticism should be "relevant" or not. I also don't see how the existence of relevant criticism validates irrelevant one either. And i'd argue games have just as much a connection to sociology and politics as games. Their connection being that the creators are influenced by society as well as the consumers. Now you could use games to push for political agendas (probably harder with GPU's) and that could be an added connection, but since that's not what games are made for that connection isn't there. At least not here and now, and i'd rather like for it stay like that. For political agendas we have activism, propaganda, etc.

One part i have quite a problem with is this one:
Fair points. Except one - I strongly disagree that the criticism is that these games "don't push a certain social agenda". And I think it's an issue with how this criticism is being received. I would say criticising under-representation of women (to take a simplified example) is not pushing an agenda, it's claiming that the medium itself is already pushing an agenda, albeit unwittingly.
I'm sorry but asking games to specifically have standards of representation for an other sake but fun is pushing a social agenda. So yes asking for games to have an equal representation is arguing games push an agenda (the agenda in question depends on what you specifically mean with "equal representation"). And i'm quite astounded by the concept of "unwittingly" pushing an agenda. If you're not aware of it how can there be an agenda? If i accidentally harm someone am i unwittingly pushing an agenda to harm that person? An agenda clearly requires intent.
 

Netrigan

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misogynerd said:
Is it reasonable to compare people who offer social commentary to ISIS?
Can we all agree to leave MovieBob alone? The man thought Sucker Punch was a profound feminist commentary. We've all got our cross to bear and that one's a big one :)
 

Netrigan

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misogynerd said:
TheKasp said:
misogynerd said:
No I didn't. I just pointed out that anyone who criticizes SJWs or is on the side of Gamergate gets called misogynist or sexist, even when they aren't.
You complain about people using terms to attack and dismiss criticism by using a derogatory term that is used to attack and dismiss criticism...
I didn't dismiss anything. I just pointed out a contradiction in the OPs thinking. What's wrong with using the term SJW? Is it insulting? It just seems like easy shorthand, so people know what I'm talking about. What do you prefer? Rainbow Sparkley Horses of Pop Culture Criticism? RPHPCCs?
I prefer Super Sexy Feminist Assassins.
 

BloatedGuppy

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misogynerd said:
Why? It's a decent enough shorthand for the group I'm talking about. Everyone knows who I am talking about, and it's not particularly rude, and it doesn't have a definition that has been diluted by overuse like misogynist or feminist.

My point is just that some people who might hold one position or another (referred to as SJW), will hurl all sorts of insults at people who are offering criticism of their positions.

I mean, am I wrong? Is it reasonable to compare people who offer social commentary to ISIS?
Yeah, exactly. It's a short-handed label intended to allow you to apply a prejudicial set of implied characteristics to a wide variety of individuals. Much like "Neckbeard". It's intended to insult, and it's bandied about freely by people who claim they're tired of hearing insults. The hypocrisy is astonishing.
 

QuietlyListening

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Melaphont said:
Fashion magazines, movies, and TV all perpetuate these negative stereotypes. For the sake of this discussion, we're focusing on just videogames and how they portray social issues.

And it's not outright damaging to one's psychological health, but over time and over population, it's still damaging. There's a large body of evidence that links perceptions to understanding. How we perceive people affects how we treat them and how we treat them affects what they become. Culture is the lens through which we perceive the condition of society.

While yes, men are often boxed into certain stereotypes the key difference is perspective. Since most games are written from a male perspective (both in terms of people doing the writing and the perspective the player is meant to take) those stereotypes fit a power fantasy; the male character is how we wish ourselves to be. Given this perspective, women are depicted as the other. I.e. This is how we wish women would look/act. Neither of these stereotypes are particularly good, but one tends to be empowering while the other is dehumanizing.

It's why I'm so confused as to why people try to separate out social criticism of a work from the aesthetic or mechanical criticism. If a piece of media has no social value, then it's not worth critiquing in any sense. It's worthless. Any discussion of it would be little more than a product review on Consumer Reports.
 

Melaphont

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QuietlyListening said:
Melaphont said:
Fashion magazines, movies, and TV all perpetuate these negative stereotypes. For the sake of this discussion, we're focusing on just videogames and how they portray social issues.

And it's not outright damaging to one's psychological health, but over time and over population, it's still damaging. There's a large body of evidence that links perceptions to understanding. How we perceive people affects how we treat them and how we treat them affects what they become. Culture is the lens through which we perceive the condition of society.

While yes, men are often boxed into certain stereotypes the key difference is perspective. Since most games are written from a male perspective (both in terms of people doing the writing and the perspective the player is meant to take) those stereotypes fit a power fantasy; the male character is how we wish ourselves to be. Given this perspective, women are depicted as the other. I.e. This is how we wish women would look/act. Neither of these stereotypes are particularly good, but one tends to be empowering while the other is dehumanizing.

It's why I'm so confused as to why people try to separate out social criticism of a work from the aesthetic or mechanical criticism. If a piece of media has no social value, then it's not worth critiquing in any sense. It's worthless. Any discussion of it would be little more than a product review on Consumer Reports.
This is your opinion that they are all negative. And there is not mountains of evidence that shows that what you do for entertainment reflects what you think of real life situations. Otherwise video game players on the whole would be more violent. Also, the assumption that objectivity is dehumanizing is a non-sequitor, because there is no evidence objectification of a fictional object damages something else that is substantial. And again, I dont think you have shown anything that is actually damaging. You cant just look at a specific subset of games to claim over all damage(specially when you cant even quantify the supposed damage). These arguments remind me of the "D&D makes you do bad things" argument, back in the 80's and 90's. There is no evidence to show that there is actual damage from video games, and there is plenty of variety where you dont have to play those simple power fantasies that you are specifically talking about.
 

QuietlyListening

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True. There are games that buck this trend. That is great. I hope there are more of them. However, these games are more of the exception than the rule.

As to the effects of media on psyche:

Thin Ideal and eating disorders: http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.1994.13.3.288

Violent Media and Aggression: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/BH06.pdf

Gender Stereotypes in Videogames: http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.

The argument here isn't that videogames "make you do bad things." The argument is that stereotyping in media leads to one accepting those stereotypes as being true. And that is negative because often those stereotypes serve to undermine the determination of minority groups and reinforce existing power structures.
 

Melaphont

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QuietlyListening said:
True. There are games that buck this trend. That is great. I hope there are more of them. However, these games are more of the exception than the rule.

As to the effects of media on psyche:

Thin Ideal and eating disorders: http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.1994.13.3.288

Violent Media and Aggression: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/BH06.pdf

Gender Stereotypes in Videogames: http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.

The argument here isn't that videogames "make you do bad things." The argument is that stereotyping in media leads to one accepting those stereotypes as being true. And that is negative because often those stereotypes serve to undermine the determination of minority groups and reinforce existing power structures.
The links you gave me are not peer reviewed by scientific journals that I can see. Also, your aggression link has had a peer reviewed research article posted, that showed that the 24 or so studies during the Jack Thompson "era" was found to be not showing any actual link in aggression from specifically video games. Psychiatric Quarterly actually released the study.
 

generals3

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QuietlyListening said:
Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.
You know what logic would dictate? That adults, assumed to know the difference between fantasy and reality, wouldn't have their world view shaped by VG's, which are as far from reality is it can be. Nothing about a VG is real even the characters aren't played by (real) actors. And yet that's supposed to shape our world view? Yeah no, i'd say our RL interactions with RL people will have a much much much much (repeat 5 million times) bigger influence. To such a point that VG influence becomes statistically insignificant. Unless maybe you're a basement dweller who never goes outside or does anything besides gaming, but than something else is the real problem.
 

Thorn14

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I just want to see solutions to all these criticisms.

Lets assume that games do supposedly adjust the way people think as some would suggest. What should be done? Should there be a rigorous scanning process to ensure that all games do not offend anyone? Or there be a mix of characters based off current demographic trends?

Should games that DON'T do this be shamed and forced to change? I just don't understand what people want when they criticize games.

Now if they say "Just more women or minority in games please" then by all means, lets make games with them please. I got no problem with more Jades or Lees.

The more games the better. But lets not get mad because Dragons Crown wanted buff ass men and shapely women too.
 

WhiteNachos

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QuietlyListening said:
Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?
Nobody's afraid of anything it's just that what's currently being passed off as serious discussion, is nothing but weakly supported theories, and general bullshit being passed off as social theory. I'll give you the run down.

"Games don't have enough female leads" - that's hardly criticism that's just a preference you have. No different than me wanting more games with local multiplayer (and at least my preference effects how the game plays). And yet they speak about it with such fervor. One article said that GTA having no female characters is "catering to the obnoxiously vocal demographic that insists only dudes play games"

The Damsel in Distress - People love to go on and on about how this trope is sexist but there's nothing inherently sexist about a man rescuing a woman from a kidnapper (or the other way around). The idea that it's over-used has been talked about for several years, and its talked about to death. At E3 they showed off a Tom Clancy game (I think)'s hostage rescue game type. They showed a single match and the hostage was a woman and some people went nuts. Never mind there was a woman on the team rescuing her, never mind that they never said all the hostages would be woman. Woman in need of rescue = OMG the sexism! Does that sound like reasonable critique.

And on top of that we have this endless stream of people saying about how games cause sexism or games would accidentally influence people to have such and such beliefs. Do any of them have any scientific evidence of this? Fuck no. It's all theory and speculation.

And on top of all that there's all this patting yourself on the back because you can see the sexism and the 'patriarchal attitudes' or whatever that no else sees in the games. It's just become one endless fucking circlejerk at this point. Instead of having a serious discussion about the theme we get people looking for sexism and complaining about the most irrelevant shit like "Why Were There No Women Presenters At The PlayStation 4 Event?" (actual title of a Kotaku article).

I remember when someone complained about Bioshock Infinite having an anti-religion stance, and the more I think about it the more I thinkt hat would be a far better critical discussion of a game then "why are so many women killed to advance the storyline of a man? Could it be sexism! (said after no effort was made at an honest comparison between that and how often male characters get killed for a man's storyline)"

TL:DR Because most of these "social justice" criticisms are bullshit.

E: A better TL:DR would be that some people making these criticism seem hellbent on saying games and gaming are awful, even if they have to complain about the pettiest of things.
 

aliengmr

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Thorn14 said:
I just want to see solutions to all these criticisms.

Lets assume that games do supposedly adjust the way people think as some would suggest. What should be done? Should there be a rigorous scanning process to ensure that all games do not offend anyone? Or there be a mix of characters based off current demographic trends?

Should games that DON'T do this be shamed and forced to change? I just don't understand what people want when they criticize games.

Now if they say "Just more women or minority in games please" then by all means, lets make games with them please. I got no problem with more Jades or Lees.

The more games the better. But lets not get mad because Dragons Crown wanted buff ass men and shapely women too.
I'm of the opinion that a great many who view these criticisms as nothing more than criticisms instead of attacks, believe there is room for it all. And there should be no policy what-so-ever forcing developers to do something they don't want to. Its all about bringing up the topic for discussion, where a developer goes from there, is their business.

Now I've been labelled an "SJW", so evidently I'm some sort of radical, but to be honest I recognize there are issues of a social nature that can be addressed by a developer, on a case by case basis, if they so choose. A developer can also not do that.

I absolutely support both. Chainmail bikinis and well developed female characters. To say its either/or is crazy. Just kind of wish there was a hashtag for that.

All I want is for indie devs To be free to make whatever they want and that ALL criticism is there for them to either use or ignore.
 

MeatMachine

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The reason is rather simple:

Being negative and pissing on someone's filet mignon is easier and more satisfying than being positive and cooking your own.
 

Erttheking

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MeatMachine said:
The reason is rather simple:

Being negative and pissing on someone's filet mignon is easier and more satisfying than being positive and cooking your own.
I just find it funny that some people get their filet mignon cooked for them, but when other people want it, they have to cook their own.