Why are we afraid of criticism?

[QuietlyListening]

Snip.

Fashion magazines, movies, and TV all perpetuate these negative stereotypes. For the sake of this discussion, we're focusing on just videogames and how they portray social issues.

And it's not outright damaging to one's psychological health, but over time and over population, it's still damaging. There's a large body of evidence that links perceptions to understanding. How we perceive people affects how we treat them and how we treat them affects what they become. Culture is the lens through which we perceive the condition of society.

While yes, men are often boxed into certain stereotypes the key difference is perspective. Since most games are written from a male perspective (both in terms of people doing the writing and the perspective the player is meant to take) those stereotypes fit a power fantasy; the male character is how we wish ourselves to be. Given this perspective, women are depicted as the other. I.e. This is how we wish women would look/act. Neither of these stereotypes are particularly good, but one tends to be empowering while the other is dehumanizing.

It's why I'm so confused as to why people try to separate out social criticism of a work from the aesthetic or mechanical criticism. If a piece of media has no social value, then it's not worth critiquing in any sense. It's worthless. Any discussion of it would be little more than a product review on Consumer Reports.

 

[Melaphont]

Snip.

Fashion magazines, movies, and TV all perpetuate these negative stereotypes. For the sake of this discussion, we're focusing on just videogames and how they portray social issues.

And it's not outright damaging to one's psychological health, but over time and over population, it's still damaging. There's a large body of evidence that links perceptions to understanding. How we perceive people affects how we treat them and how we treat them affects what they become. Culture is the lens through which we perceive the condition of society.

While yes, men are often boxed into certain stereotypes the key difference is perspective. Since most games are written from a male perspective (both in terms of people doing the writing and the perspective the player is meant to take) those stereotypes fit a power fantasy; the male character is how we wish ourselves to be. Given this perspective, women are depicted as the other. I.e. This is how we wish women would look/act. Neither of these stereotypes are particularly good, but one tends to be empowering while the other is dehumanizing.

It's why I'm so confused as to why people try to separate out social criticism of a work from the aesthetic or mechanical criticism. If a piece of media has no social value, then it's not worth critiquing in any sense. It's worthless. Any discussion of it would be little more than a product review on Consumer Reports.

This is your opinion that they are all negative. And there is not mountains of evidence that shows that what you do for entertainment reflects what you think of real life situations. Otherwise video game players on the whole would be more violent. Also, the assumption that objectivity is dehumanizing is a non-sequitor, because there is no evidence objectification of a fictional object damages something else that is substantial. And again, I dont think you have shown anything that is actually damaging. You cant just look at a specific subset of games to claim over all damage(specially when you cant even quantify the supposed damage). These arguments remind me of the "D&D makes you do bad things" argument, back in the 80's and 90's. There is no evidence to show that there is actual damage from video games, and there is plenty of variety where you dont have to play those simple power fantasies that you are specifically talking about.

 

[QuietlyListening]

True. There are games that buck this trend. That is great. I hope there are more of them. However, these games are more of the exception than the rule.

As to the effects of media on psyche:

Thin Ideal and eating disorders: http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.1994.13.3.288

Violent Media and Aggression: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/BH06.pdf

Gender Stereotypes in Videogames: http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.

The argument here isn't that videogames "make you do bad things." The argument is that stereotyping in media leads to one accepting those stereotypes as being true. And that is negative because often those stereotypes serve to undermine the determination of minority groups and reinforce existing power structures.

 

[Melaphont]

True. There are games that buck this trend. That is great. I hope there are more of them. However, these games are more of the exception than the rule.

As to the effects of media on psyche:

Thin Ideal and eating disorders: http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.1994.13.3.288

Violent Media and Aggression: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/BH06.pdf

Gender Stereotypes in Videogames: http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.

The argument here isn't that videogames "make you do bad things." The argument is that stereotyping in media leads to one accepting those stereotypes as being true. And that is negative because often those stereotypes serve to undermine the determination of minority groups and reinforce existing power structures.

The links you gave me are not peer reviewed by scientific journals that I can see. Also, your aggression link has had a peer reviewed research article posted, that showed that the 24 or so studies during the Jack Thompson "era" was found to be not showing any actual link in aggression from specifically video games. Psychiatric Quarterly actually released the study.

 

[generals3]

Contrary to your assertion, there's a good deal of evidence that suggests our consumption of media shapes our world-view. This argument is also supported by logic; the brain adapts to exposure, and if a particular message is repeated, the brain learns to accept that message.

You know what logic would dictate? That adults, assumed to know the difference between fantasy and reality, wouldn't have their world view shaped by VG's, which are as far from reality is it can be. Nothing about a VG is real even the characters aren't played by (real) actors. And yet that's supposed to shape our world view? Yeah no, i'd say our RL interactions with RL people will have a much much much much (repeat 5 million times) bigger influence. To such a point that VG influence becomes statistically insignificant. Unless maybe you're a basement dweller who never goes outside or does anything besides gaming, but than something else is the real problem.

 

[Thorn14]

I just want to see solutions to all these criticisms.

Lets assume that games do supposedly adjust the way people think as some would suggest. What should be done? Should there be a rigorous scanning process to ensure that all games do not offend anyone? Or there be a mix of characters based off current demographic trends?

Should games that DON'T do this be shamed and forced to change? I just don't understand what people want when they criticize games.

Now if they say "Just more women or minority in games please" then by all means, lets make games with them please. I got no problem with more Jades or Lees.

The more games the better. But lets not get mad because Dragons Crown wanted buff ass men and shapely women too.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Often I have seen the refrain of, "Please stop talking about X. All this focus on social issues will suck the life and fun out of games."

This leads me to the following question:

WHAT!?

In what medium has criticism left art worse off? Are books terrible because there's literary criticism? Are movies worse because there are disciplines devoted to studying film? Is TV boring now that we analyze shows for social themes?

It boggles my mind that anyone could think that serious artistic criticism could be anything but good. Personally, some of the most enriching discussions I've had have been over some of the most trivial examples of entertainment. So what the hell are people afraid of?

Nobody's afraid of anything it's just that what's currently being passed off as serious discussion, is nothing but weakly supported theories, and general bullshit being passed off as social theory. I'll give you the run down.

"Games don't have enough female leads" - that's hardly criticism that's just a preference you have. No different than me wanting more games with local multiplayer (and at least my preference effects how the game plays). And yet they speak about it with such fervor. One article said that GTA having no female characters is "catering to the obnoxiously vocal demographic that insists only dudes play games"

The Damsel in Distress - People love to go on and on about how this trope is sexist but there's nothing inherently sexist about a man rescuing a woman from a kidnapper (or the other way around). The idea that it's over-used has been talked about for several years, and its talked about to death. At E3 they showed off a Tom Clancy game (I think)'s hostage rescue game type. They showed a single match and the hostage was a woman and some people went nuts. Never mind there was a woman on the team rescuing her, never mind that they never said all the hostages would be woman. Woman in need of rescue = OMG the sexism! Does that sound like reasonable critique.

And on top of that we have this endless stream of people saying about how games cause sexism or games would accidentally influence people to have such and such beliefs. Do any of them have any scientific evidence of this? Fuck no. It's all theory and speculation.

And on top of all that there's all this patting yourself on the back because you can see the sexism and the 'patriarchal attitudes' or whatever that no else sees in the games. It's just become one endless fucking circlejerk at this point. Instead of having a serious discussion about the theme we get people looking for sexism and complaining about the most irrelevant shit like "Why Were There No Women Presenters At The PlayStation 4 Event?" (actual title of a Kotaku article).

I remember when someone complained about Bioshock Infinite having an anti-religion stance, and the more I think about it the more I thinkt hat would be a far better critical discussion of a game then "why are so many women killed to advance the storyline of a man? Could it be sexism! (said after no effort was made at an honest comparison between that and how often male characters get killed for a man's storyline)"

TLR Because most of these "social justice" criticisms are bullshit.

E: A better TLR would be that some people making these criticism seem hellbent on saying games and gaming are awful, even if they have to complain about the pettiest of things.

 

[aliengmr]

I just want to see solutions to all these criticisms.

Lets assume that games do supposedly adjust the way people think as some would suggest. What should be done? Should there be a rigorous scanning process to ensure that all games do not offend anyone? Or there be a mix of characters based off current demographic trends?

Should games that DON'T do this be shamed and forced to change? I just don't understand what people want when they criticize games.

Now if they say "Just more women or minority in games please" then by all means, lets make games with them please. I got no problem with more Jades or Lees.

The more games the better. But lets not get mad because Dragons Crown wanted buff ass men and shapely women too.

I'm of the opinion that a great many who view these criticisms as nothing more than criticisms instead of attacks, believe there is room for it all. And there should be no policy what-so-ever forcing developers to do something they don't want to. Its all about bringing up the topic for discussion, where a developer goes from there, is their business.

Now I've been labelled an "SJW", so evidently I'm some sort of radical, but to be honest I recognize there are issues of a social nature that can be addressed by a developer, on a case by case basis, if they so choose. A developer can also not do that.

I absolutely support both. Chainmail bikinis and well developed female characters. To say its either/or is crazy. Just kind of wish there was a hashtag for that.

All I want is for indie devs To be free to make whatever they want and that ALL criticism is there for them to either use or ignore.

 

[Netrigan]

Now I've been labelled an "SJW"

I prefer the term, Super Sexy Feminist Assassin.

 

[MeatMachine]

The reason is rather simple:

Being negative and pissing on someone's filet mignon is easier and more satisfying than being positive and cooking your own.

 

[Erttheking]

The reason is rather simple:

Being negative and pissing on someone's filet mignon is easier and more satisfying than being positive and cooking your own.

I just find it funny that some people get their filet mignon cooked for them, but when other people want it, they have to cook their own.

 

[FFMaster]

I don't think people are afraid of criticism, i think they are annoyed with it being applied in the wrong places on the wrong things and the wrong conclusions being drawn from it. You have a jokey game make a joke, someone takes it out of context then "BAD GAME" articles all over the places as an exaggerated article.

I know earlier on in the thread someone crunched the numbers of all articles over the past 2 years to show topics with a social justice slant and came up with .45% of all articles. Now while that seems like a small number it is quite large when you think about it encompassing a lot of different sites and different articles so could very well be hundreds of articles. Some sites would be dragging the percentage up and down as well.

Now about criticism and being afraid of it, maybe i am slightly afraid of it but this is mainly due to the wrong conclusions thing i mentioned earlier. I know when Jim talks about it he uses the line "they are not going to take away your games". This is factually incorrect in my opinion.

While its true when this sort of stuff happens they never say the words "you can't do this", they instead say "this sort of thing should be changed". But it has the same effect because when you put up a load of bad press, marketers seem this and say "don't do this cause we cant' market it". So it ends up having the same effect due to the outcry, not really from customers but from the press in some cases (Daily Mail manufactured outrage is a good example)

Hell there's even a few reports of people saying they made a game but couldn't get any talk about it because it was blacklisted due to something or other (nothing bad, but was perceived as sexist) so no marketing = no money = no future game like that.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

People generally don't like it when people from the outside step into their "area" and tell them how their hobbies are bad and reflects poorly on them without any idea for context or prior experience. Just because I play GTAV doesn't mean I'm a violent, greedy asshole anymore than Civilization makes me a ruler of a nation. Critiques are meant to be constructive, not a means to condemn an entire pastime or its players because of a few problem areas, usually from within the community. Just because you have a Gender Studies degree from a generic liberal arts college doesn't give you any right or legitimacy unless you actually show it, and so far I haven't seen that. You don't see people stepping on women's talk shows, magazines, or movies for "dehumanizing masculinity", it's just that guys don't care and we have no reason to care. Everyone has their interests and unless if you share said interest or those interests can cause serious problems, you don't need to step your feet over it.

 

[aliengmr]

I don't think people are afraid of criticism, i think they are annoyed with it being applied in the wrong places on the wrong things and the wrong conclusions being drawn from it. You have a jokey game make a joke, someone takes it out of context then "BAD GAME" articles all over the places as an exaggerated article.

I know earlier on in the thread someone crunched the numbers of all articles over the past 2 years to show topics with a social justice slant and came up with .45% of all articles. Now while that seems like a small number it is quite large when you think about it encompassing a lot of different sites and different articles so could very well be hundreds of articles. Some sites would be dragging the percentage up and down as well.

Now about criticism and being afraid of it, maybe i am slightly afraid of it but this is mainly due to the wrong conclusions thing i mentioned earlier. I know when Jim talks about it he uses the line "they are not going to take away your games". This is factually incorrect in my opinion.

While its true when this sort of stuff happens they never say the words "you can't do this", they instead say "this sort of thing should be changed". But it has the same effect because when you put up a load of bad press, marketers seem this and say "don't do this cause we cant' market it". So it ends up having the same effect due to the outcry, not really from customers but from the press in some cases (Daily Mail manufactured outrage is a good example)

Hell there's even a few reports of people saying they made a game but couldn't get any talk about it because it was blacklisted due to something or other (nothing bad, but was perceived as sexist) so no marketing = no money = no future game like that.

There are plenty of examples of bad press having the opposite effect, "Sexbox" about Mass Effect being one example. Dragon's Crown still has a metacritic rating of 82. Do I even need to mention GTA? Sex sells despite these criticisms.

Seriously, I am unaware of any game with any meaningful following being destroyed by the press alone. Conversely, I've seen fans revolt to a game's mere existence (see: Transverse). In almost any circumstance where a, genuinely good, game has been attacked by the outside media fans have always stepped in. If the game had no following there might be reasons for that beyond just, boobies. All I know is there is no end to the bitching when it comes to Steam's ever expanding library.

Realistically, there isn't any actual way to censor a game. An idea or concept? Maybe. But gamers themselves often do this by simply not liking a developer or their "scam detectors" tingle (see: Areal). I don't care for nit-picking games but I've yet to see one instance where someone said "This feature is sexist!" and gamers responding "They're right! PREORDER CANCELLED!!". In fact I could probably be convinced that accusations of "sexism" in a game are just a marketing ploy.

Yes, if the media is blacklisting games based on nothing more than nitpicky accusations of sexism, it should stop. But I honestly haven't seen any evidence to support that. Seen a whole lot of the opposite.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Hey, you know what...

This is a funny read to me. Who is afraid? I encounter the criticisms, and I'm unafraid. I point out the faults that I believe said criticism holds, and I'm met with a volley of off-point, distracting shaming language. Glass houses...

What's funny is that my views are actually fairly moderate. Have we considered that maybe the negative reaction to certain ideologically driven criticism is at least somewhat based on the quality of said criticism? Is that a possibility? There are certainly some who behave as though it's unassailable truth.

I'd be interested in talking earnestly with people about a given topic, providing they can refrain from insults and smugness. Nobody need take someones self-assigned-superiority seriously, and it's best kept to yourself.

Ok fine, I think most of the talk of objectifying female characters is just shaming straight male sexuality. I mean if a game has a skimpy outfit and calls it armor that's just stupid and deserves to be called so. If a game wants to pretend it's not pandering to male's sexuality but it is then sure, give it hell. And I too am tired of seeing that pandering in certain games but I don't consider anything wrong with objectifying fiction.

look at Dead or Alive anything but the fighting games, it's pretty clear with its intentions of arousing male players and it gets trotted out a lot (especially by Jim Sterling) as a huge problem in the industry. They talk like the game is sexist or bad for existing because it objectifies women. I don't see the problem, really I don't. Not even from a 'oh games aren't being taken seriously because of this' angle. I mean its not their job to get games taken seriously and every medium has its base pandering even if you ignore porn. There's 50 Shades of Grey Pirahna DD all sorts of stuff that goes by without people saying 'oh novels shouldn't be taken seriously'. And then when I see objectification trotted out every time a woman with a skimpy outfit is in a game I really think they just have a problem with men and their lusts.

A general theme of blowing problems out of proportion is what makes me weary when I see 'feminist critique'. E: And yes I realize that last part is subjective, it's just what I think personally.

 

[WhiteNachos]

What fuck me off is the "remember when games use to be about fun" or "people play games to escape reality" and dismissing any criticism as "political agenda" response. Did you eve considerer that some of this might actually effect some peoples fun? That playing a game for "escapism" isn't going to work when it chock full of the attitudes and imagery you want to escape from?

Unfortunately, that requires empathy for others. And from what I can tell, on the internet, this is a really bad thing.

Well in this scenario both groups are unwilling to sacrifice their fun for the sake of other people's fun so that would mean that by your standards they would both lack empathy.

 

[WhiteNachos]

But, there's also something else. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but back when I went through university in the late '90s, we were proud of the fact that we were very hostile to misogyny, and were chipping away at sexism. If somebody had said around us back then some of the things that were said about Sarkeesian and Quinn now, they would have gotten their ass kicked by everybody in the room.

That's not an option nowadays. We don't know who is posting these things, and even if we did they might live in a different country so we can't just beat them up for it. There is no real way to stop them and for all we know it could just be 40 different people.

Sometime in the last 15 years, a rape culture emerged

Meaning what, exactly?

with a lot of misogyny (and yes, I know the difference between sexism and misogyny), and I don't have a clue of where it came from. What I do know is that the primary "SJW" targets were the ones dealing with sexism in games and calling it out.

Frankly, the way things have changed disturb the hell out of me. Back when I was writing, it was a civil conversation, regardless of the topic.

A lot of criticism gets dismissed as misogyny and it looks like you're doing the same. Just lumping people in with the misogynists.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The reason is rather simple:

Being negative and pissing on someone's filet mignon is easier and more satisfying than being positive and cooking your own.

Agreed.

What is perfectly evident to me is that if you want respect from a certain demographic of gamers, you can't just sit there and criticize games, like Anita Sarkeesian. You have to go out and make your own, like Zoe Quinn or Jennifer Hepler.

THEN you'll get respect.