Why Choices do Not Define a RPG.

[Fire Daemon]

Snip

Ah yes, that's basically what I was trying to get at but you put it much better than I could have possibly done. It's far too late at night for discussion.

 

[veloper]

The problem is by that logic every single game ever made ever is an RPG. Every game you play some sort of role. Role playing, by definition is...

Main Entry: role?play
Pronunciation: \ˈrōl-ˌplā, -ˈplā\
Function: verb
Date: 1949
transitive verb

1 : to act out the role of

Ugh, another one.

Just as "starboard" is not some engineered wood with stars on it (it's the rights side of a ship), the meaning of RPG is not the sum roleplay + game.

The meaning of "role" here goes back to the wargames the rpg was derived from.

So you're saying you don't role playing role playing games? Would you mind enlightening me to what you do in role playing games, then?

Each of the players must fill their various tactical "roles" or jobs, to accomplish a goal together.
So the cleric must heal and buff and the rogue must scout and take care of traps, while mage does artillery, etc. That's where the role came from.

That's not the whole story, because an RPG isn't just the sum of tactical role + playing + game either.
It's a tabletop game with stats and character progression and it was a gamist afair. All that makes an RPG.

 

[Abedeus]

Why wouldn't health, armor, or ammo count as stats? And what about weapon damage, accuracy, firing speed? Kills? Score? Lives?

Because those are out-game statistics. In-game stats, that make or break your characters, are what we're discussing. Again, by your example, every single game in the existence is an RPG because it has statistics - Mario has a high-score, Sonic has rings and even racing games have times and laps. Heck, even adventure games probably could be the same - amount of items in inventory, time within which you completed....

All these are numerical representations of certain aspects of your character. You know, stats. Just because they're not shown in a nice spreadsheet format on a character sheet doesn't mean that they're not present in pretty much every single game. How big of a role they play in the game varies, but every game relies on stats.

Mario relies on stats? How? You get from point A to point B.

That's just silly. There are plenty of 'statless' RPGs.

...Like?

Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain are both RPGs. You play the game as if you were the characters, what you would do. You make decisions that ultimately affect the entire game. You make decisions as if you were the main character, which is role-playing.

BZZT! Sorry, thanks for playing.

All those games are classified as "adventure games". Like Monkey Island, Syberia, Sam and Max, Broken Sword and lots of forgotten games. The only difference between those games and the ones you mentioned are MULTIPLE ENDINGS.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

no matter what anyone says, true RPGs are impossible in video games because they MUST be limited. Even if choice-driven games like Mass Effect and Deus Ex the choices are still limited.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

That's just silly. There are plenty of 'statless' RPGs.

Those would be group writing or group improv acting sessions then, not RPGs.

games like Football Manager and JRPGs are Role Playing Games and we all just have to come to turms with that.

terms

Anyway, suggesting that Football Manager is an RPG is the silliest thing I've heard all day.

Apart from picking apart spelling mistakes and calling my argument silly do you have any actual argument to put against that quote? Any at all?

Yes, a GM can (and often will) take the role of monsters, but that's like saying the CPU takes the role of the aliens in Halo. Warhammer is a wargame, not an RPG. Stats are just as defining of wargames (and a lot of other genres) as they are of RPGs. Sure, stats are a significant part of most RPGs, but they are by no means a defining feature. Taking the role of Shepard is the only decent (if not entirely accurate, due to the limitations of videogames I mentioned before) example, since the player actually playing a role there that's more than just the mechanics of the game.

Going back to my original post you seem to have ignored:

'alterable stats linked with the player/characters which form attributes which determine the course of play'

If a stat is not linked with a player (as in a person playing the game) and their character(s) it is not an RPG. It is also important to note that a computer can not change the stats as it wishes, only a human can do that. It is possible for a game to change in difficulty and hence change some aspect of it's stats but in doing so the computer would be acting out the wishes of the programmer, it would be the programmer changing the stats themselves by acting through the program. The programmer is the one in control of the aliens, but it's telling the computer to roll his dice.[/quote]

By that logic, most Final Fantasy games are not RPGs because the player has no direct influence on the stats of their characters, and even less on those of their enemies.

Warhammer is an RPG, anyone who's played it would probably realise this. Even if we assume that your definition is correct it would still fit as an RPG. A ton of games have people acting (yelling, giving heroic speeches etc) which isn't so far from a game of DnD. The only thing that seperates it from a traditional game of DnD is the lack of a story, but is entirely possible to create a campaign for Warhammer and in essence create a story. By all accounts it isn't that different from DnD. As I said before, a game of DnD will still be an RPG if the play was left and any story and acting was removed because you would still be in the role of the player, making the choices with the spells/abilities etc. The same goes for Warhammer where you make the choices with the spells/abilities etc. The only difference is that the role is limited to a select few characters but to an entire army or perhaps a single character (the General) in control of an army, but probably the former as when the General dies you don't always instantly loose.

The main difference here is scale. In a wargame, you control an army of (mostly) faceless, nameless soldiers. In an RPG, you control one individual, or a relatively small group of individuals. These not only act individually, they are also individual in that they have different skills, different names, etc. If I have a squad of Devastators in WH40k, they act as a single unit, and they're all "Devastator". If I have a party in an RPG, we might have Alice the Rogue, Bob the Warrior, and Charles the Wizard.

While wargames and RPGs certainly have a lot in common. After all, the first RPGs were made by wargamers who wanted to emulate some of the heroic adventures of characters like Conan the Barbarian in stead of commanding an army. But that's a big part of the reason stats don't define RPGs: The two are different genres, but they both use a very similar system of stats.

You believe that Mass Effect is the closest to an actual RPG because you take the role of Shepard, but in Warhammer you still take the role of an army and in DnD you take the role of whatever character you make. The only difference is the level of characterization these roles have, leading to an RPG being based on how in depth the players character is. But that would mean certain games of DnD will not count as an RPG because they use shallow stock characters (or maybe even less) while other games of DnD would count as an RPG because they use more sophisticated characters. That is a loose definition which can be interpreted in a variety of different ways, meaning that it's closer to garbage than a definition.

If you don't see how playing one character, or playing in a small party of individuals, is different from commanding an entire army, we've got a bigger issue than squabbling over definitions.

Also, whether a character is stock or not has absolutely nothing to do with a game being an RPG or not. Even tabletop games often come with a couple of pre-generated characters, and playing those doesn't make it not an RPG.

You also said before that you wouldn't consider Final Fantasy an RPG yet these games have immense amounts of characterization. The games revolve around the characters. Your definition doesn't make any sense.

I never even used the word characterization, so I don't see where you're going with this. The reason I think that by strict definition Final Fantasy is not an RPG, is that you've got no real input on the character's actions outside of combat. You're just following the character as they go through their predefined routines, and occasionally get to control them in order to fight an enemy.

Compare that to Mass Effect, where you get to make tons of (usually minor, often insignificant - again, the limitations of videogames) choices that actually influence the characters and the world around them.

Name one videogame that doesn't use stats.

I can't because non exist except for perhaps the old CRT games. That's beside the point if you go and check out the definition I provided above. Mind you, I've been able to come up with some ideas as to why my definition is faulty. The Stock Market uses stats and it even has 'players', no characters but I'm sure that some people treat it as a game. I wouldn't consider it an RPG and I don't think that many others would either, so maybe I should go back and put in some more words for clarity. If you have anything else that actually goes against the definition I provided I would like to hear it.

I don't intend to come up with a list of exceptions because I don't think it's necessary in order to illustrate what I mean. Part of what you typed here goes well with what I already wrote in a different post, namely that the definition is far too wide. A good number of games that rely heavily on stats aren't considered RPGs, after all.

The thing is, as I said before, that the term "RPG" has become far too muddled to be accurately defined. I don't think anyone can come up with a conclusive definition without either excluding some games that are considered RPGs, or including some games that are not considered RPGs.

For example, when I excluded Final Fantasy from the RPG genre a bit back, I'm sure a lot of people disagreed with me. That's fine, because depending on your perspective what I said is nonsense. Why would Final Fantasy not be an RPG if it's marketed as an RPG and if almost everyone recognizes it as an RPG? The truth is that the term "RPG" just isn't clear enough to easily summarize.

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

Why wouldn't health, armor, or ammo count as stats? And what about weapon damage, accuracy, firing speed? Kills? Score? Lives?

Because those are out-game statistics. In-game stats, that make or break your characters, are what we're discussing. Again, by your example, every single game in the existence is an RPG because it has statistics - Mario has a high-score, Sonic has rings and even racing games have times and laps. Heck, even adventure games probably could be the same - amount of items in inventory, time within which you completed....

"Out-game statistics"? Excuse me if I don't have a clue what you're talking about? How is the amount of bullets in my gun more "out-game" than an arbitrary number describing my character's intelligence?

As for the rest: My point exactly.

All these are numerical representations of certain aspects of your character. You know, stats. Just because they're not shown in a nice spreadsheet format on a character sheet doesn't mean that they're not present in pretty much every single game. How big of a role they play in the game varies, but every game relies on stats.

Mario relies on stats? How? You get from point A to point B.

I'd like to see Mario get from point A to B after he runs out of that "lives" stat.

That's just silly. There are plenty of 'statless' RPGs.

...Like?

Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain are both RPGs. You play the game as if you were the characters, what you would do. You make decisions that ultimately affect the entire game. You make decisions as if you were the main character, which is role-playing.

BZZT! Sorry, thanks for playing.

All those games are classified as "adventure games". Like Monkey Island, Syberia, Sam and Max, Broken Sword and lots of forgotten games. The only difference between those games and the ones you mentioned are MULTIPLE ENDINGS.

While classification of Heavy Rain as an RPG is undoubtedly a bit awkward, it could easily be argued that it's more of an RPG than, for example, Diablo.

After all, in Heavy Rain you're far more involved in the process of playing a character than in Diablo. You make in-character decisions in Heavy Rain, while the decisions you make in Diablo are usually strictly meta. You have more freedom in interacting and affecting your environment in Heavy Rain, while you're mostly restricted to killing monsters and gathering phat lewt in Diablo.

Both of these aspects are very much absent from the adventure game genre.

 

[Zhukov]

Nice little essay.

Now it just needs a conclusion.

 

[DeathByTheSword]

A role playing game is a game where you are given (or make) a character and you make choices that define that character. Not the choices YOU would make (although you can do that if you want to) but the choices you think define your character's personality.
Of course that is pretty much lost these days.

 

[StriderShinryu]

And confined RPG's, like ... MMO's.
The role is premade, you might get the option to give a name, but your actions are already set in stone.
However, you DO play that role. You act out the script. You are still playing that role.

This is a rather tired debate, and I find myself agreeing with the raging Panda, but I figure this point is worth bringing up anyway.

An MMO is a so called "confined RPG?" Huh?

In an MMOs you can:
- Literally can create whatever type of character you want (within the given race/class/etc guidelines of course) and play them however you want.
- Follow the story or ignore it completely.
- Craft your own story or approach the given storyline any way you want.
- Never advance past the starting area because you've decided to create a character that's a normal "townsperson" who doesn't even go out and adventure at all

That really doesn't sound very confined to me in an RP sense, whether your definition of a true RPG means stats based or role based play.

 

[Savagezion]

Then there is movie acting.
The actor is given a script, with a pre-made character. who's choices are already set in stone. Not a single thing is up to the actor.

You know very little about the movie industry. I see where you were trying to go with it, but it is wrong. I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned. While this line may be true for a high school play production or some actor trying to get a start, in Hollywood this is dead wrong. The actor/ess can and will and does make changes to his/her charactor as he/she sees fit. It's called being an A-lister and as such you can pick how your charactor does stuff all the way up to rewriting the script itself. Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, Dustin Hoffman, Will Smith, all have the ability to do such things. The list is actually quite long. If the stars name has the ability to put people in the seats, they have an ability to alter their charactor in the story.

And confined RPG's, like Final Fantasy, Tales series, Diablo, MMO's.
The role is premade, you might get the option to give a name, but your actions are already set in stone.
However, you DO play that role. You act out the script. You are still playing that role.

So I hear the question forming in your head.
"What makes Final Fantasy XIII a RPG, while Halo isn't. You both play a role."

Yes, yes that is right.
But over the years, another factor sneaked into RPG's that defines them more than the act of playing a role. Stats.
Or rather, the improvement of character attributes that progressively increase your character's abilities and skills.

As stated shortly after your post Madden games and some Ghost Recon games do fall into this catagory. Because if you are going to narrow it down to 1 charactor then Baulder's Gate, Icewind Dale, Mass Effect, etc. all get ruled out of being an RPG.

And even those boarders are getting thinner now. More and more games include a RPG style into their main genre. Look at the heroes in Warcraft 3. Or the increasing attributes of Lara Croft in.... I forgot there are too many Tomb Raider games.

Or even the other way, Kingdom Hearts takes both your and your characters' abilities to the test.
But at the core, RPG's are still the games that progress through stats, and not through your skill.

My two cent.

Stats essentially is just a window into a combat system. I am a firm believer that turn based does not make an RPG. I like turn based as much as I do real time but let's face it, the combat system is always one of the extreme highlights of any RPG. When a new RPG comes out one of the first things graded is the style and mechanics of the combat system. So saying that it must adhere to only one kind of combat system is ludicrous. All combat systems have stats, even if they are permanently hidden from the player. SO technically, every game that doesn't involve "jumping on head combat" but an actual damage system uses stat based combat.

Now, I posed a question in another thread that went unanswered. So here it is:

****************************************************​

If Zelda came out with a new game that allowed for 20 different possible endings, 5 of which you don't save Hyrule, 8 of which the Link dies but saves Hyrule, the other 12 just variations of him saving Hyrule. And you influence the world around you through choices you make in the game and various ways you complete objectives. However, no stats are present. Just regular ol' hearts.

I would say this is more of an RPG than FF. Does anyone disagree with that?

****************************************************​

More and more games are adding stat based systems to the charactor to allow you to feel a sense of achievement the same way some old RPG systems did. Not that many games are allowing you to make choices. Most stories are stil consistantly linear, including claimed RPGs. We are on FFXIII now and we still don't get to make choices? I got all excited in X when I thought I could choose Lulu or Yuuna, at least it was something, but no they let me pick a line of dialogue once in the game that didn't make a bit of difference. I mean that is almost downright mocking the genre you are claiming to be.

Final Fantasy is Crash Bandacoot with stats to me not an RPG. Sorry guys.

 

[oktalist]

You see, in Halo, I will get better at the game. MY skills will improve. That is why I can later go back to the first level and beat the monsters far better. My aim improved, my reaction time improved, I learned more about the AI.

While in Final Fantasy, it is your character that improves. It gains new stats, it gains new powers, new skills and new attributes.

That was all you needed to say.

But what counts as a stat?

HP and armour? Which weapons you have at your disposal? In an RPG these things might be part of the stats system, but in an FPS they are displayed in a crude inventory system. Maybe stats are things which cannot be lost after they've been earned?

You would define Deus Ex as an RPG (and I would agree) because you gain XP as you progress, and can spend it on levelling up different skills of your character. But what about the augmentations that you pick up in various places in the game? Do they also count as a stat? They are a very similar game mechanic; you are awarded them for progress, you can choose which ones to equip, and they effectively give your character new skills. Also, weapon mods: things which attach to your guns and improve their accuracy, damage, etc.

So what about S.T.A.L.K.E.R.? It doesn't have levelable stats as such, but it does have something which is very similar to the augmentations of Deus Ex: artefacts; you collect these from the game environment (the better ones are rare and often take some skill on the part of the player to obtain), you can choose which ones to equip and they modify things like your stamina or your resistance to radiation.

I think that JRPG and western RPG are two completely different genres, and having one umbrella genre of RPG which covers both is about as sensible as coining the genre "side-scrolling RTS-FPS" even if there are one or two games which could cross over between the two unrelated genres. And I think another de facto defining attribute of WRPGs is branching storylines, or optional quests, and an extensive inventory system.

 

[SnowdensOfYesteryear]

One has to differentiate between the modern definition of "RPG" (rocket-propelled grenade, or, in a nomenclature more tuned to gaming, "Roleplaying game,") in which you play a role set out for you by the devs, and/or slightly alter the route that overall stays the same except for motivation, or the more table-top like roots in which you create and affect your role via choices and the like.

The "stats" argument is only applicable to modern RPGs, really. While a lot of tabletop games are based around stats, I can name at least one that isn't, and it's still an RPG because you play a role.

 

[Korten12]

I actually think the wikipedia article is not too bad on RPGs.
Are the features outlined there the defining features you are thinking of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

thats a good article... I really hate how so many peple are now claiming rpgs are no longer rpgs becuase some games give us choice.... it pisses me off.

 

[Snarky Username]

The problem is by that logic every single game ever made ever is an RPG. Every game you play some sort of role. Role playing, by definition is...

Main Entry: role?play
Pronunciation: \ˈrōl-ˌplā, -ˈplā\
Function: verb
Date: 1949
transitive verb

1 : to act out the role of

Ugh, another one.

Just as "starboard" is not some engineered wood with stars on it (it's the rights side of a ship), the meaning of RPG is not the sum roleplay + game.

The meaning of "role" here goes back to the wargames the rpg was derived from.

So you're saying you don't role playing role playing games? Would you mind enlightening me to what you do in role playing games, then?

Each of the players must fill their various tactical "roles" or jobs, to accomplish a goal together.
So the cleric must heal and buff and the rogue must scout and take care of traps, while mage does artillery, etc. That's where the role came from.

That's not the whole story, because an RPG isn't just the sum of tactical role + playing + game either.
It's a tabletop game with stats and character progression and it was a gamist afair. All that makes an RPG.

While that may have been what "Role playing" originally meant for tabletop gaming, we're not talking about tabletop gaming. If video games went by the same definition, the only games that would be RPGs would be MMORPGs.

 

[veloper]

The problem is by that logic every single game ever made ever is an RPG. Every game you play some sort of role. Role playing, by definition is...

Main Entry: role?play
Pronunciation: \ˈrōl-ˌplā, -ˈplā\
Function: verb
Date: 1949
transitive verb

1 : to act out the role of

Ugh, another one.

Just as "starboard" is not some engineered wood with stars on it (it's the rights side of a ship), the meaning of RPG is not the sum roleplay + game.

The meaning of "role" here goes back to the wargames the rpg was derived from.

So you're saying you don't role playing role playing games? Would you mind enlightening me to what you do in role playing games, then?

Each of the players must fill their various tactical "roles" or jobs, to accomplish a goal together.
So the cleric must heal and buff and the rogue must scout and take care of traps, while mage does artillery, etc. That's where the role came from.

That's not the whole story, because an RPG isn't just the sum of tactical role + playing + game either.
It's a tabletop game with stats and character progression and it was a gamist afair. All that makes an RPG.

While that may have been what "Role playing" originally meant for tabletop gaming, we're not talking about tabletop gaming. If video games went by the same definition, the only games that would be RPGs would be MMORPGs.

What makes a cRPG then on console or PC is anybody's definition.

The earliest cRPGs were what we now call "roguelikes" where you have just this 1 PC, instead of a complete party, so the whole tactical role part went out of the equation since the player had to do everything by himself in these games.

What the roguelikes kept was the stats and the experience part and that seems to be the industry standard now.

Have a shooter or action game or whatever with stats and XP and you can slap RPG on the box.
It's not a very useful distinction since there's a huge difference between a RPS, a diablo clone and a JRPG and so you get arguments every once in a while with even studios like Bioware chiming in.

It's become like "art", another useless word. Call it a painting instead if it is a painting, or in our case call the game a RPS, a TPL, a JRPG or a roguelike, etc.

 

[Abedeus]

"Out-game statistics"? Excuse me if I don't have a clue what you're talking about? How is the amount of bullets in my gun more "out-game" than an arbitrary number describing my character's intelligence?

It's less relevant. Whether you shoot 200 bullets to pass the level or 100 bullets is... well, never relevant. But whether you have 200 hit points or 100 hit points, that's a big difference.

Those statistics you showed don't affect the game itself.

I'd like to see Mario get from point A to B after he runs out of that "lives" stat.

In the old days, you had to pay for lives. That's what the "life" system is for. It's not really a statistic... God.

While classification of Heavy Rain as an RPG is undoubtedly a bit awkward, it could easily be argued that it's more of an RPG than, for example, Diablo.

After all, in Heavy Rain you're far more involved in the process of playing a character than in Diablo. You make in-character decisions in Heavy Rain, while the decisions you make in Diablo are usually strictly meta. You have more freedom in interacting and affecting your environment in Heavy Rain, while you're mostly restricted to killing monsters and gathering phat lewt in Diablo.

Both of these aspects are very much absent from the adventure game genre.

That's why I don't consider Diablo an RPG. It's an action-RPG, or if I want to be more blunt, hack'n'slash like God of War, but with more stats and loot and leveling up than in GoW.

Again, if we consider stats and/or involvement in the character to be a vital part of RPGs, then sport managers and simulations and strategy games are a lot more number-dependent than most RPGs out there.

Jesus, why do I tire of arguing with you after like 2nd post?

 

[Hurr Durr Derp]

It's less relevant. Whether you shoot 200 bullets to pass the level or 100 bullets is... well, never relevant. But whether you have 200 hit points or 100 hit points, that's a big difference.

Those statistics you showed don't affect the game itself.

They don't affect the game? If I run out of bullets, I'm just as screwed as when I'm underleveled in Final Fantasy. If I run out of health, it's even worse. I don't really see your point.

In the old days, you had to pay for lives. That's what the "life" system is for. It's not really a statistic... God.

sta·tis·tic /stəˈtɪstɪk/
-noun
a numerical fact or datum

How is it that 'hit points' is a statistic, but 'lives' isn't?

That's why I don't consider Diablo an RPG. It's an action-RPG, or if I want to be more blunt, hack'n'slash like God of War, but with more stats and loot and leveling up than in GoW.

Again, if we consider stats and/or involvement in the character to be a vital part of RPGs, then sport managers and simulations and strategy games are a lot more number-dependent than most RPGs out there.

For some reason, you're pretty much saying what I've been saying this entire thread.

Games like Diablo aren't proper examples of RPGs, and stats are not the defining feature of an RPG.

Jesus, why do I tire of arguing with you after like 2nd post?

Because you think you're supposed to be arguing against me, but it turns out you actually agree with me?

That sounds like it'd be pretty annoying, yeah.

 

[Snarky Username]

Turbo-snip

I'm assuming you'll agree with me that role-playing in most definitions is assuming a character different from yourself and acting as if you were that character. Like in The Escapist's Role Playing forum, people assume the character of someone else and role play together.

If you use that as the definition for "Role-Playing Game" then that means "RPGs" would be games in which you role play, which means that the games that would be RPGs would technically be games that you make decisions and play as if you were the character. That is the definition of an RPG.

The universally accepted definition, is however, what you said. Any game with stats and exp. Most developers just call games "RPGs" because they don't have another term for them and they have stats like many RPGs do, which is the point I was originally getting at. By definition Role Playing video games allow you to make decisions so that you can play through your character's eyes. It just happens that most of these games have stats because tabletop RPGs originally had stats. The problem is that there are also games with stats that you don't role play in. There's no real label for these games that anyone could find, so developers just decided on "RPGs" because that's the closest thing that can describe them.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Please for fuck sake people do we have to go through this every couple of weeks. JRPGs are RPGs just a lot of the choices are made for you there are still choices in them. They just don't affect the story. JRPGs aren't about your story they are about the story. While WRPGs are about your story. They are both ice cream one is strawberry and one is chocolate. So please stop resurrecting this thread. Also just because you play a role does not make it a RPG as in every game you play a role technically speaking just as every game has some arbitrary form of stats. Saying Mario has stats is really getting pedantic. Also when they say a game has RPG elements they don't let you make game changing choices or your own special character do they? No they give you stats and a leveling system. While this does not fully make a game a RPG it is part of what they are.