Why Completing All Objectives And Finding All Secrets Are Meaningless

FirstNameLastName

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Darth_Payn said:
This is nothing new. Remember the classic id Software FPS's? Wolfenstein 3D, DOOM, and Quake? Those levels were loaded with hidden rooms, with weapons and health and treasure, and at the end of each level, the game told you how much of the enemies you killed and secrets you found, making you feel like a big thicky bo-bo for not finding them all.
I think secrets and kill statistics are different to these types of busy work that inhabits a lot of games these days. When it's hidden, then fair enough, but when they tell you the exact location of all the items then it becomes a chore.

Speaking of chores, I would say the worst example of this type of things would be Just Cause 2 (never played the first one, so it could be worse). Seriously, finding all the shit in that game is a job for a mad man. It's not particularly hard, since it tells you where most of it is, but the map is huge and absolutely littered with collectables. If anyone tells me they achieved 100% completion, then you are either going to hell for lying, or have crippling OCD and too much time.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I don't mind finding things when the add to the story, or give me a special weapon or something. Final Fantasy games did this very well, giving you side quests that you could completely ignore (and in some cases, characters even), but if you took the time, they paid off.
I also liked tracking down the Dead Space audio and text logs, because they gave insight into what was going on.

But yeah, running around collecting flags just to collect them? Or minerals? Or other junk? Bores the snot out of me. I used to try to get them all because I did want that platinum trophy, but now I just go, "Hm...that's a lot of work. And I can't seem to get this other trophy so...nope."
 

FirstNameLastName

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Thanatos2k said:
... This is why DLC is such garbage. You're literally told - "You can't get 100% in this game unless you pay more" and that is enraging to the completionist.
With all due respect, who the fuck cares? There are plenty of things wrong with DLC; the fact that people have to buy the DLC in order to get 100% is so far down the list I wouldn't even include it.
 

weirdee

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Y'know that joke game concept you're using as an example? It turned into its own genre: idle games.
 

Holythirteen

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FirstNameLastName said:
Thanatos2k said:
... This is why DLC is such garbage. You're literally told - "You can't get 100% in this game unless you pay more" and that is enraging to the completionist.
With all due respect, who the fuck cares? There are plenty of things wrong with DLC; the fact that people have to buy the DLC in order to get 100% is so far down the list I wouldn't even include it.
Ya, you'd also have to count the multiplayer-only achievements as well, many of which are unavailable shortly after release, or require such stupid amounts of luck or hours invested that you had better get over your lack of 100%'s for games almost instantly.

Funny he mentions Asscreed, that was also the first game that made me seriously question the "fun" of 100% completion... and maybe Mass Effect, of course... I figured I was just getting old.

I did enjoy exploring levels in Mario 64 and Banjo-kazooie, trying to get all the stars, notes, jiggies, and miscellanies. I guess in those games you were doing the collecting anyway to open more levels, and since you needed most of the STUFF to actually end the game, it didn't feel like much of a chore to just go ahead and finish them all off.

So I'm willing to give collect-a-thons another chance, maybe it can still be fun, I'd rather have a mostly pointless reason for exploration over an empty level. At best you find some interesting/funny characters, or some weird unique thing, at worst, you are just filling a bar, but I play very little of Ubisoft-the-game, I can't think of any other examples that I disliked.

Really all these collectibles do is "reward" players who WANT to pad things out and not just go and get the last boss.
 

beastro

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FirstNameLastName said:
Thanatos2k said:
... This is why DLC is such garbage. You're literally told - "You can't get 100% in this game unless you pay more" and that is enraging to the completionist.
With all due respect, who the fuck cares? There are plenty of things wrong with DLC; the fact that people have to buy the DLC in order to get 100% is so far down the list I wouldn't even include it.
I know. Is seeing two zeros behind one one that important? Just tally up how much of the non-dlc content you did and count that as the 100%, but I guess we're missing the point since we're not that anal about things.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Holythirteen said:
FirstNameLastName said:
Thanatos2k said:
... This is why DLC is such garbage. You're literally told - "You can't get 100% in this game unless you pay more" and that is enraging to the completionist.
With all due respect, who the fuck cares? There are plenty of things wrong with DLC; the fact that people have to buy the DLC in order to get 100% is so far down the list I wouldn't even include it.
Ya, you'd also have to count the multiplayer-only achievements as well, many of which are unavailable shortly after release, or require such stupid amounts of luck or hours invested that you had better get over your lack of 100%'s for games almost instantly.

Funny he mentions Asscreed, that was also the first game that made me seriously question the "fun" of 100% completion... and maybe Mass Effect, of course... I figured I was just getting old.

I did enjoy exploring levels in Mario 64 and Banjo-kazooie, trying to get all the stars, notes, jiggies, and miscellanies. I guess in those games you were doing the collecting anyway to open more levels, and since you needed most of the STUFF to actually end the game, it didn't feel like much of a chore to just go ahead and finish them all off.

So I'm willing to give collect-a-thons another chance, maybe it can still be fun, I'd rather have a mostly pointless reason for exploration over an empty level. At best you find some interesting/funny characters, or some weird unique thing, at worst, you are just filling a bar, but I play very little of Ubisoft-the-game, I can't think of any other examples that I disliked.

Really all these collectibles do is "reward" players who WANT to pad things out and not just go and get the last boss.
I think the real difference is that there is fun collecting, and busywork collecting. Of course, this is an argument in itself since different people find different things fun.

The various stars in the Mario games are what I would consider an example of fun collecting, since they are central to the game mechanics and there is a certain amount of challenge to collecting each one. My main problem is with the Ubisoft model where they seem to create the game first then stick an arbitrary number of collectables all over the map. Sure, some of them might require a bit of climbing, but most of them are just sitting out in the open. Far Cry 4 springs to mind, with it's posters, Mani wheels ... and virtually every other collectable. There's no challenge to the posters. They all appear on the map, so finding them isn't hard, and once you do find them it is a simple matter of walking up to them and holding a button. It's just a chore to wander from building to building.
 

Therumancer

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There are two points I think need to be made here. One is simply that a lot of the games (mostly by Ubisoft) that give you collectibles and tell you where they are do tend to mix it up a bit. For example in Ubisoft games where some of the collectibles are obvious, in other cases simply moving to the area where the icon is doesn't mean you can get it, indeed the area where the collectible is might not be obviously approachable at all. Granted in the scope of each game there are only so many tricks they can use (such as needing to find a cave to get under where your standing if you just go to the icon), but I wouldn't say it's 100% a matter of just grabbing the stuff. The problem is mostly when they add so many collectibles that finding that cave becomes old hat. For example in Far Cry 3 I don't think they really needed to put 120 bloody tribal relics into the game.

The other thing I'd point out is that right now games are made for "filthy casuals" to use a popular term. Indeed one of the reasons why gamers get so offensive about it is because it was predicted what was going to happen if casuals were not kept out of the hobby, or given a greatly reduced role in it. Simply put in the interest of making games enjoyable to all they really can't make much about them truly complicated, or introduce much in the way of true failure states. To do these things drives away casual gamers who will say "well, we have lives and can't put in the time to actually master a game, but we feel we're entitled to succeed at them and see all the content as well". Sort of like the old MMO argument that arguably started with Everquest where the rank and file players became upset that so much content was put into the game that could only ever be seen by a dedicated few players. The idea being that casuals pay the same money so should be entitled to everything the game offers. Some MMOs then decided "hey let's make a game with all levels of content accessible to everyone", "Theme Park" games were then arguably born, they made lots of money, and so they became the default ways of doing MMOs. Since they made so much money by catering to the casuals it became anathema to do it any other way and pretty much every "hardcore" MMO development eventually wound up selling out due to publishers wanting the biggest pile of money available, not a dedicated audience of serious gamers. The same applies to single player games, at the end of the day Ubisoft realizes that making serious games for serious gamers simply won't make them the same kind of money as churning out a predictable EZ mode theme park that can give people the illusion of being good at a game with a bit of persistence (which doesn't require dedicated persistence as you can take breaks as long as you want, unlike say an MMO where you need to keep up and work constantly). As I have pointed out for a long time a lot of the current games, like most shooters, are fundamentally just as casual as "Farmville" and other "clicker" games, they are just created with higher budgets and aimed at a different audience. Something like "Farmville" is aimed at people who don't seriously think of themselves as gamers and actually feel relieved to be so obviously casual in such a "weird" hobby, on the other hand a lot of AAA gaming right now including most Ubisoft titles is just as casual but created in such a way that it's supposed to convince the people playing it that they are "hardcore".

Now, before people take this the wrong way, to be honest I'm not a "serious gamer" anymore, it was years ago that I was an uber-raider in WoW or did any MMOs very seriously. Due to RL issues related to medication, tendonitis, and slowly developing arthritis I simply cannot move and play games like I used to. I'm actually glad for serious, high-quality, casual games, especially since the industry has moved so far away from true RPGs which were largely an intellectual exercise. That said, when I play something like "Assassin's Creed" nowadays (even if I'm not a serious fan) it looks pretty awesome when I say have Edward Kenway cutting through the entire crew of a British Man O' War, but I've played enough games to say flat out that it's not in the least challenging, it's incredibly easy compared to a lot of the games that I used to play, I mean cripes, if I can do it even when my wrist and fingers are having a rough moment that says something.

The sad truth is that today the majority of people playing games are the kinds who will generally get stuck, or not receive immediate gratification, or not be made to feel like they are properly uber, and then claim the game blows chips because of their own failures as opposed to working through them to get better or find work arounds. If a quick trip to say Gamefaqs won't help, the reviews get bombed, and people will take it out on a bad game, probably claiming bugs and other assorted problems are responsible, even if it was just the game kicking their butt since they didn't want to practice.

To an extent I think it's still kind of fair to blame the casuals who caused this trend, since really the greedy corporate suits are just doing what greedy corporate suits do. We as gamers sort of failed to defend our turf, especially the gaming media which did the easy thing in pushing for casual acceptance. We went for "hey there will be enough games for everyone of all play styles" to the reality check some people saw coming of pretty, but easily winnable games, that largely just take a time investment and not even a dedicated one. Something defended constantly by story trumping gameplay (where a game should include both) which ironically reminds me of a parent telling a child a story, and in this case it's a lot of older folks regressing to childhood.

Cruel, and I guess I'm increasingly bashing myself, but that's how I feel, and the opinion I've come to over the years. It's literally like a theme park, spend enough time waiting in line, and then you'll get to see the awesome event/ride, at which point you go stand in line for the next one. Single player, MMO, it's all the same thing, as long as you put in the time to get through the line you'll get to the payoff... unless the ride breaks (which is in this metaphor a shoddy game with legitimate bugs).
 

Veylon

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dunam said:
Here you go. Achievement unlocked.

http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked

A game like progress quest.

I remember playing... erm... watching progress quest. Was quite zen-like.
I'd run it in the background and check in every now and then. It seems to satiate the same mental need to "see what's going on" that checking in on websites does.
 

spartan231490

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Couldn't agree more, it's just lazy design IMO. Instead of creating enough actual content they just cram 100 "trophies" in the game so you spend another 40 hours replaying the same shit to find them all.

If you enjoy them, I don't hold it against you, but don't expect me to agree.
 

Scrythe

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All of this reminds me of IdleRPG, a game where you don't actually play anything. You just make a character, then idle on IRC for as long as you can. Character movement, PvP, leveling, quests, and item obtainment is completely automated.

It's made even more pointless by the fact you can just set up a low-power computer, like a Raspberry Pi, as an IRC bouncer and just have that plugged into your router forever.
 

RolandOfGilead

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Haven't played new stuff with this problem, but I remember being a completionist for stuff like all the 2d Castlevanias.
 

Guffe

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I don't think I have ever 100% a game. I do look at what I can get from certain sidequests and maybe I do them or search for something if I want it, but generally I main quest and if it happens to be a sandbox game I can sometimes venture into exploration mode, but rarely. The games that, lately, kept me sidemissioning the most might be the Batman games, then the one game were I was searching for certain stuff in maps was Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, since I wanted a certain lightsaber handle or colour. Then again since Lotro was free to play to about level 40 (I saved all the value points and bought extra areas) after that the main missions got so hard that there I almost completely stopped main missioning after Mines of Moria and just explored MiddleEarth in stead.
But yeah, hunting achievements has never really been my thing, I play the story mode and pick up a little extra here and there but very seldom (never) search everything up.
 

SmallHatLogan

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"Collect all the things" was something I liked back when I used to play a lot of 3D platformers (mainly on the Nintendo 64). But it was because the gameplay was built around it. The sense of achievement from getting all of the music notes in Banjo Kazooie was very cathartic.

But finding all the collectibles in something like GTA or Saints Row. Ugh, what a bore. Who wants to be hunting around every nook and cranny for hidden packages when you can be engaged in high speed chases and airport shootouts?

As for Progress Quest, I sometimes like to leave it running in the background, inevitably forget about it, then days later (because I never turn my computer off) realise it's still going and check up on my character, a land squid voodoo princess named Dis.
 

Shymer

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SmallHatLogan said:
But finding all the collectibles in something like GTA or Saints Row. Ugh, what a bore. Who wants to be hunting around every nook and cranny for hidden packages when you can be engaged in high speed chases and airport shootouts?
Actually I quite like to and I suspect I am not alone. I have a strong desire to complete tasks in games - even quite mechanical repetitive ones - avoiding more tense combat or chase situations. I drove one of my friends mad when he watched me playing Fallout 3 - opening every container - sorting loot and managing inventory - systematically clearing zones and buildings.

This tendency was present prior to my first experience of achievement scores - but they did focus my 'completionist' behaviour. Gave me a way of measuring it. I get a powerful kick from reaching 100%, and a similarly powerful down if, after much trying, the game's objective seems massively out of reach - poorly balanced for my play-style. Like many aspects of game design, there is good achievement design and achievement design - but I have overall benefited from achievements and seen more of more games by having them than I otherwise would have.

I do have a maximum tolerance for grindy achievements - but it is notably greater than that of many of my friends. I am not surprised that many people do not see meaning in achievement hunting. But I suspect it feeds a deep human need for harmony that some people feel with more intensity than others.
 

joest01

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I don't think there is a right answer to this. The experience of playing a game through on normal, once, can be very different from trying to complete all it has to offer. Going for post game bosses in RPG's often forces you to master the mechanics to an extent that the core game simply doesn't. or take Bayonetta 2. I have beaten it on all difficulties, but before I haven't beaten all the challenges and at least have a decent percentage of plat/pure plat medals, I am far from having experienced all the game has to offer. Sure you can get through the metroid games without all the gear, but trying to get it all will force you to really learn the wonderful mechanics. Few people will do this for every game they play, I know I don't.

There is a kickstarter campaign for a game I quite like open right now (not mentioning it since I'm not sure what the policy on KS posts is on the escapist). They have designed their game with a very simple philospohy in mind. they say they want to create the kind of game you "BEAT, instead of FINISH". Now, I am sure that differnt people hold themselves to different standards before they consider a game "beaten", but simply going through the story once usually isn't it.

And lets not even talk about the tendency to start myriad games and not finish them. The game industry must be so happy with us gamers in that respect. If people tried to get the most out of the games they buy, and focus on the ones they actually want to "get into", I have a feeling we would have a lot less shitty games on this planet.

p.s. just to reiterate, I am not saying to complete 100% runs (although having that goal helps to stay focused sometimes) but to truly master the machanics and try to get into the lore of a game to an extent beyond just seeing the credits.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Arkham City, I think, is a collect-a-thon that fits into all three categories. You unlock more of the Riddler storyline as you collect the trophies and riddles (context), they certainly aren't all easy to grab (challenge), and, well, getting more of them is quite cathartic, even though the points become meaningless once you're maxed out. That said though, I couldn't be arsed to go with it all the way to the end because of how empty it started to feel after a while.
 

joest01

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bartholen said:
Arkham City, I think, is a collect-a-thon that fits into all three categories. You unlock more of the Riddler storyline as you collect the trophies and riddles (context), they certainly aren't all easy to grab (challenge), and, well, getting more of them is quite cathartic, even though the points become meaningless once you're maxed out. That said though, I couldn't be arsed to go with it all the way to the end because of how empty it started to feel after a while.
I can only talk to Arkham Asylum (AC didn't speak to me like at all) and I surely haven't finished all the riddles, challenges etc., but if you haven't played it on hard difficulty you may have finished the game but you haven't experienced it.
 

Nimcha

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Agreed. I really don't know why for example people criticize Dragon Age Inquisition for having too many sidequests. Have people become so conditioned by achievements that they see them as requirements?