Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter

[NerfedFalcon]

Friction is required in any game even if the game itself is easy, there needs to be some element of earning something. It could be a collectible system that has some tricky things to find, or a crafting system that requires a bit of grind to get the best stuff. Whatever it is.

However I think the best forms of friction in games are ones that allow the player to master it and remove that friction. For example a difficult combat system that the player masters and suddenly the game is a joke. Or learning an item system that allows the players to overcome challenges via clever item or magic combinations. For example learning the materia system in ff7 rebirth to the point where you dont need to be good at the combat, you can just cast a specific order of spells to destroy everything g without having to move.

The problem with that mindset is that a game with too many "cheese" tactics will eventually become dominated by them to the point where you almost need to use it in order to get anywhere. As you yourself said about Elden Ring in that dedicated thread:

I will remind people that Elden Ring wasn't that hard, with many items capable of 1 shoting almost every boss in the game. The problem Fromsoft game have developed is that they are TOO hard if you dont use cheese.

It's why I think The Binding of Isaac post-Rebirth isn't that fun anymore, because you need a one-in-a-thousand run in order to actually "finish" a run once you unlock the lower floors. On the other hand you have games like Enter the Gungeon, where you can't ever really reach the point where you don't lose the run unless you throw, but at the same time you also can't get frozen out of a run because your gear is so bad that no amount of skill can compensate. I've seen a lot of people criticize Gungeon for its relatively low power ceiling, but I vastly prefer that to TBOI:R's nigh-unplayable power floor.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Funny that the last example was Clair Obscur having no map.
A number of reviews/commenters I saw listed that as one of the few criticism of the games, while the guy in this video cites it as a positive.
"Friction" is a weird term- are we talking about challenge or are we talking about jank or poor design? The example given are all over the place.

The original video is a guy talking specifically about extraction shooters, a genre I have zero interest. So I'll take his word for it that people like that there's a billion menu things and you don't know what anything does. That sounds insane to me but that is also his point- the genre is not for me.

I'll admit I don't want "friction." Having to learn all the dodge timings from multiple attacks- some of which have multiple sub-attacks!- from every enemy in Clair Obscur, which already is turn-based combat and therefore so time consuming- is my nightmare. I have to try each fight over and over to "practice" dodge and then maybe parry while futzing with a menu interface. Kill me IRL lol. But people are loving this shit so *shrug*

FromSoftware "friction" is generally amusing because at least I can hit something or run around. The reason I love Sekiro is that it had nothing I would call "friction" in the sense I think we're using it. Challenge- yes, obviously, but without a stamina bar, without a ton of menus, with fluid movement and logical/generous checkpoints, I could always run at or away from stuff and try again and again.

Dragon's Dogma and its sequel were like Friction the Game. And they have their fans. I am not one of them.

I think this is why I like neat little games now. "pure" game. Same reason I like music with acoustic instruments more these days, and novels <400 pages, and movies without prequels and sequels. So much noise around the heart of the experience I don't have patience for.

 

[BrawlMan]

"Friction" is a weird term- are we talking about challenge or are we talking about jank or poor design?

Mainly the challenge, but poor design does come up in conversation when used as an example of poor friction and etc.

I'll admit I don't want "friction." Having to learn all the dodge timings from multiple attacks- some of which have multiple sub-attacks!- from every enemy in Clair Obscur, which already is turn-based combat and therefore so time consuming- is my nightmare. I have to try each fight over and over to "practice" dodge and then maybe parry while futzing with a menu interface. Kill me IRL lol. But people are loving this shit so *shrug*

For me it varies, but I don't mind friction, so long as it's not too obnoxious nor too obtuse about it. It's a big or little YMMV for anyone though. It's why I don't bother with Souls style games in general. I play games, watch movies/TV, or read whatever I am interested in, and not just what "everybody else" is doing. Similar to you.

I am not one of them.

Same.

 

[Dreiko]

In my view most single player games can't really avoid the part of the game where you master the systems enough that the game is kinda solved. They can be super cheap and unfair I guess, but then getting to that point of skill isn't fun enough to be worth the trouble.

This is why I like fighting games, cause as much as a char is limited and set in stone, the human controlling them is an unknown entity, and even when you conquer one person, there's thousands more out there to offer you a new challenge.


I think games like Path of Exile and some roguelikes like Darkest Dungeon tackle the issue about as well as a single player game can (though especially the latter can run into the issue of feeling too much of an RNG-based-experience, though I feel it's still skill based enough), but ultimately for me single player games are something I play more for immersion and the story and fun rather than high level mechanical competition and challenge. Even something like Sekiro, to me it's the ultimate ninja simulation more than anything. It's more fun that mechanically challenging once you get good at it.



And yeah monhun always had that issue where endgame is basically just hunting for drip and efficiency instead of new experiences and challenges, that's part of it being sort of like an MMO from back in the day. That sort of DNA is there.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

In my view most single player games can't really avoid the part of the game where you master the systems enough that the game is kinda solved. They can be super cheap and unfair I guess, but then getting to that point of skill isn't fun enough to be worth the trouble.

This is why I like fighting games, cause as much as a char is limited and set in stone, the human controlling them is an unknown entity, and even when you conquer one person, there's thousands more out there to offer you a new challenge.


I think games like Path of Exile and some roguelikes like Darkest Dungeon tackle the issue about as well as a single player game can (though especially the latter can run into the issue of feeling too much of an RNG-based-experience, though I feel it's still skill based enough), but ultimately for me single player games are something I play more for immersion and the story and fun rather than high level mechanical competition and challenge. Even something like Sekiro, to me it's the ultimate ninja simulation more than anything. It's more fun that mechanically challenging once you get good at it.



And yeah monhun always had that issue where endgame is basically just hunting for drip and efficiency instead of new experiences and challenges, that's part of it being sort of like an MMO from back in the day. That sort of DNA is there.

I'm actually interested in trying Path of Exile 2 when it becomes free.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Mainly the challenge, but poor design does come up in conversation when used as an example of poor friction and etc.


For me it varies, but I don't mind friction, so long as it's not too obnoxious nor too obtuse about it. It's a big or little YMMV for anyone though. It's why I don't bother with Souls style games in general. I play games, watch movies/TV, or read whatever I am interested in, and not just what "everybody else" is doing. Similar to you.

Same.

When I think of "friction" in Souls games really the only part that comes to mind is the run-backs. The hard combat, the figuring out where to go, heck even the obfuscated upgrade systems is like on purpose, and part of the experience? I mean going on reddit and message boards to figure out which upgrade items I need and how to get past certain enemies was part of the fun. But the run-backs are just some steaming hot bullshit and then they basically removed that with Sekiro.

 

[BrawlMan]

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[Dreiko]

When I think of "friction" in Souls games really the only part that comes to mind is the run-backs. The hard combat, the figuring out where to go, heck even the obfuscated upgrade systems is like on purpose, and part of the experience? I mean going on reddit and message boards to figure out which upgrade items I need and how to get past certain enemies was part of the fun. But the run-backs are just some steaming hot bullshit and then they basically removed that with Sekiro.

Sekiro has that too, it’s just less of a build or special item you need to go obtain and more about how you use your basic set of tools. Like for example Lady Butterfly is a shuriken mastery tutorial camouflaging as a boss. The flaming bull is a firecracker tutorial. Etc. etc.

 

[BrawlMan]

@Old_Hunter_77 and @CriticalGaming, one more parry story for both of you.

There was a time where Devil May Cry fans complained about parries being easier to perform in DmC (2013). Though that was the least of my problems with the reboot at the time. Capcom ended fixing this in the Definitive Edition, if a player ever decided to turn on the Hardcore Mode Perk. Tightening the windows for parries and Demon Evades.

This ironic, as while Devil May Cry 5 has tighter parry and dodge windows than DmC (2013), parrying is much easier in 5, compared to 1, 3, or 4. Dante's jumping forward lock-on Ice Cerbus attack parry anything, and you rarely have to try hard to make the timing right most of the time. Nero has an diagnol air stinger that can parry almost any attack and all you have to do is simply point and aim when you figure this out. Yet none of the fans complained about any of this. Funny how that works out,

 

[BrawlMan]

@CriticalGaming, @NerfedFalcon, and @Old_Hunter_77

Another trend I've noticed is that there are more tag team based brawlers coming out.
First there was Double Dragon Gaiden. Then Marvel Cosmic Invasion got announced. Now Toxic Crusaders is having a tag in tag out mechanic as well.

This other trend I have noticed os not just a video games but applies to animation as well. Media like Hifi Rush, Ubeatable, Star vs. The Forces of Evil, and Jentry Chau vs. The Underworld all take either visual inspiration from Scott Pilgrim vs. The World comic book, or in HF's case, the movie more so. Star vs. was was one of the first start from this inspiration design trend with the way the characters look. This is all ironic, because scott pilgrim itself was inspired by Japanese gaming and anime. Particularly River City Ransom/Kunio-Kun franchise.

 

[BrawlMan]

@Old_Hunter_77, @CriticalGaming, @The Rogue Wolf, @Dreiko and @NerfedFalcon, the SIFU inspired games are here now. Though appear much easier by comparison to the originator. We got a new sub-genre of 3D brawlers now!

Tenet of the Spark


Acts of Blood


Dead As Disco
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Are any of you in, or are you out?

BTW, @Old_Hunter_77 & @Piscian, here is a bonus for both of you!

Wu-Tang: Rise of the Deceivers
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[Dreiko]

I saw acts of blood the other day, reminds me of a mix between Sifu and that Chinese gta martial arts style game. Not as pretty and stylish as Sifu but going for that gritty edge to it.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

> Are any of you in, or are you out?
*shrug*
I liked the idea of SIFU more than actually playing it, because of the roguelite.
(Yes I know it's not AKCHOOLLY roguelite but it's practically roguelite).

So if there's a non-roguelite SIFU-like on Gamepass while I'm subscribed at some point, great, but I'm not invested.

 

[BrawlMan]

So if there's a non-roguelite SIFU-like on Gamepass while I'm subscribed at some point, great, but I'm not invested.

None of these have rouge-lite elements at all, and are linear and level based. I already checked.

Not as pretty and stylish as Sifu but going for that gritty edge to it.

Acts of Blood is from Indonesia and it and SIFU are taking from the Raid duology anyway. Hence the extra grit.

(Yes I know it's not AKCHOOLLY roguelite but it's practically roguelite).

Not really. Having alternative and extra paths does not = rouge-lite.

So if there's a non-roguelite SIFU-like on Gamepass while I'm subscribed at some point, great, but I'm not invested.

Okay then.

 

[Dreiko]

> Are any of you in, or are you out?
*shrug*
I liked the idea of SIFU more than actually playing it, because of the roguelite.
(Yes I know it's not AKCHOOLLY roguelite but it's practically roguelite).

So if there's a non-roguelite SIFU-like on Gamepass while I'm subscribed at some point, great, but I'm not invested.

For me the Yakuza series is kind of like a non-roguelike Sifu. And those are great games.

 

[BrawlMan]

For me the Yakuza series is kind of like a non-roguelike Sifu. And those are great games.

Once again, SIFU is not a rouge-lite. That has already been proven false a long time ago. I don't know why some of you people are still saying this.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

Once again, SIFU is not a rouge-lite. That has already been proven false a long time ago. I don't know why some of you people are still saying this.

Well I said it feels like a roguelite, and my experience with it is that it in practicality it becomes a roguelite, as most players will have to replay levels over and over again to get the character's age down enough to make the last level beatable. The reason I quit the game was the same exact reason I quit every roguelite- I was doing the same damn level over and over and got annoyed and bored.

 

[BrawlMan]

Well I said it feels like a roguelite, and my experience with it is that it in practicality it becomes a roguelite, as most players will have to replay levels over and over again to get the character's age down enough to make the last level beatable.

Still doesn't make it a rouge-lite, and your description is almost any video game with huge difficulty curves or spikes in general. With your view, nearly every hard game or challenging game would be a "rouge-lite".

The only randomization SIFU has, is when certain mooks get turned into elite mooks/powered up state where they get a health boost, more damaging attacks, and some extra defensive options. Though certain ones aren't randomized and will almost always go into a berserk state. That's nothing unique to rouge-lites, and nor regular action games. All Sloclap did is the take the dynamic difficulty and random demon spawning mechanic from God Hand and enemies getting Devil Trigger on Dante Must Die. The only difference being in SIFU, the mooks do this no matter what difficulty you're on.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Are any of you in, or are you out?

I never played Sifu in the first place, so I'd probably want to do that before I tried any 'imitators', unless they got stellar reviews on their own. And while I'm not not interested, it's just never gotten to the front of my interest pile.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I never played Sifu in the first place, so I'd probably want to do that before I tried any 'imitators', unless they got stellar reviews on their own. And while I'm not not interested, it's just never gotten to the front of my interest pile.

Basically the same for me. I have Sifu on the Epic Game Store, but haven't gotten around to trying it.