Why Derivative Game Design Doesn't Matter

[BrawlMan]

I'm not into the "woke" crap either as you all already know,

Once again, that term lost all meaning for the pejorative grifters and alt-right tried to use. Remember when I gave you the actual meaning of the words from African Americans, and not loud bitchy douchebags? Though it's genuinely good to know where you stand. Thank you.

People talk a lot of shit but in reality they do not want original things, they want the same shit with different colors that they already know they love. That is why sequels and franchises exist and are the most profitable and popular things in the media business as a whole.

Yet they either almost never want to admit it, or will hide behind something and never be satisfied. We've already seen it with Zekey boy ever since GoW4 came out. Though signs showed up before the site got a complete overhaul.

I have no problem admitting what I want or like, but I am not afraid to try new things. Nor trying old school games or throwbacks to games from the past.

 

[BrawlMan]

@Old_Hunter_77, @CriticalGaming, and @hanselthecaretaker2, something I've noticed recently are certain action games taking some Souls elments recently. The idea of re-spawning enemies if going back to a previous area/environment is nothing new, and has been around since the NES days. Yet I've noticed with games like Romeo Is A Dead Man and Pragmata, they do the Dark Souls style, enemies re-spawn when you make it to a save station and then go back to the hub world. More so with Romeo, because the moment you go to the save station, you automatically heal, thus enemies respawn instantly. Pragmata, you only heal if you decide to back to the hub area.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

@Old_Hunter_77, @CriticalGaming, and @hanselthecaretaker2, something I've noticed recently are certain action games taking some Souls elments recently. The idea of re-spawning enemies if going back to a previous area/environment is nothing new, and has been around since the NES days. Yet I've noticed with games like Romeo Is A Dead Man and Pragmata, they do the Dark Souls style, enemies re-spawn when you make it to a save station and then go back to the hub world. More so with Romeo, because the moment you go to the save station, you automatically heal, Pragmata, you only heal if you decide to back to the hub area.

Basically because it works. Usually the biggest issue people take with it is when trying to tie some logic or lore implications to why it all happens. Ehh...How are we able to pull any one of dozens of weapons out of our ass inventory? It's just a game.

 

[BrawlMan]

Basically because it works. Usually the biggest issue people take with it is when trying to tie some logic or lore implications to why it all happens. Ehh...How are we able to pull any one of dozens of weapons out of our ass inventory? It's just a game.

It works fine in both cases, but I wasn't expecting either games to do this. Pragmata especially, but fits more for it compared to Romeo.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

@Old_Hunter_77, @CriticalGaming, and @hanselthecaretaker2, something I've noticed recently are certain action games taking some Souls elments recently. The idea of re-spawning enemies if going back to a previous area/environment is nothing new, and has been around since the NES days. Yet I've noticed with games like Romeo Is A Dead Man and Pragmata, they do the Dark Souls style, enemies re-spawn when you make it to a save station and then go back to the hub world. More so with Romeo, because the moment you go to the save station, you automatically heal, thus enemies respawn instantly. Pragmata, you only heal if you decide to back to the hub area.

I first noticed it with Jedi: Fallen Order.
And to u/Hanselcaretaker2 point, what would be the lore reason for storm troopers- who are just regular people?- respawning after you meditate (which is how save points in the game are portrayed).

I wasn't aware of respawning enemies in Pragmata, so thx for the warning. That moves it lower on my to-play list.

 

[BrawlMan]

first noticed it with Jedi: Fallen Order.

Yes, but that was an obvious Souls clone. These other two are straight up action games. So most people wouldn't suspect that.

wasn't aware of respawning enemies in Pragmata, so thx for the warning. That moves it lower on my to-play list.

If it makes it feel any better, when you get to these points, they're not gonna respawn, unless you backtrack, too specific areas. Is there any one you come back from the hub? At the stations, you're in a say, spot until you go to the next area that you more than likely have not been through yet. That's how it's been with me so far.

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

I first noticed it with Jedi: Fallen Order.
And to u/Hanselcaretaker2 point, what would be the lore reason for storm troopers- who are just regular people?- respawning after you meditate (which is how save points in the game are portrayed).

I wasn't aware of respawning enemies in Pragmata, so thx for the warning. That moves it lower on my to-play list.

*shrugs*. I’ve never played it but can only guess that someone somewhere complained about it. Aren’t the movies similar anyways where a practically endless parade of stormtroopers show up until the plot calls for something other than fighting them? I don’t care enough for you to waste your time answering lol.

 

[Xprimentyl]

While we're on the subject, is "respawning enemies" really an identity of Souls games? Because last I checked, checkpoints have basically been an industry standard since forever, i.e.: you die, and have to start over from a predetermined point with everything in front of you reset, the only exception being you're able to get to your last point of failure and recoup your losses. In fact, remove getting your "souls" back before dying again basically makes any modern day game an 8-bit test of skill. When the last goomba kills you before reaching the flag in World 1-1, you start at the beginning of world 1-1. Granted you have limited lives, but the concept is the same, so one could argue Souls games are just more beautiful and forgiving.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

And then there's Dark Souls 2, where if you kill the same non-boss enemy twelve times, it'll permanently stop respawning and get out of your way for the rest of the run, but you also can't use it to grind anymore. So considering that you can just empty out the entire path from the bonfire to the boss if you want or you die to the boss enough times, does it really even count as a "Souls game" by the common definitions?

 

[BrawlMan]

While we're on the subject, is "respawning enemies" really an identity of Souls games? Because last I checked, checkpoints have basically been an industry standard since forever,

No, but I noticed a trend of the Souls checkpoint style. All the way back when Shovel Knight came out. It was either, pick your gear where you last died, or activating this checkpoint/save point respawns the enemies the moment you leave or backtrack.

Games like Ninja Gaiden II, Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge, Bayonetta 1-3, Killer Is Dead, etc. didn't cause enemies to repsawn when at either save statues/hawks, hell gates, or have standard checkpoints. DMC's divinity statues never caused enemies to respawn. They only respawned if backtracking to previous areas (DMC1-4), or died and would load you at specific checkpoints. Dying at a boss would spawn you outside of its arena door, unless you got a gold orb (3SE-5ES &DmC). Notice how all of these are action games of some kind.

so one could argue Souls games are just more beautiful and forgiving.

Depends on which game you're talking about. Games like KiD and Shadows of the Damned are more forgiving than most Souls games.

And then there's Dark Souls 2, where if you kill the same non-boss enemy twelve times, it'll permanently stop respawning and get out of your way for the rest of the run, but you also can't use it to grind anymore. So considering that you can just empty out the entire path from the bonfire to the boss if you want or you die to the boss enough times, does it really even count as a "Souls game" by the common definitions?

Odd how later Souls games never bothered with this unique mechanic again.

 

[Old_Hunter_77]

While we're on the subject, is "respawning enemies" really an identity of Souls games? Because last I checked, checkpoints have basically been an industry standard since forever, i.e.: you die, and have to start over from a predetermined point with everything in front of you reset, the only exception being you're able to get to your last point of failure and recoup your losses. In fact, remove getting your "souls" back before dying again basically makes any modern day game an 8-bit test of skill. When the last goomba kills you before reaching the flag in World 1-1, you start at the beginning of world 1-1. Granted you have limited lives, but the concept is the same, so one could argue Souls games are just more beautiful and forgiving.

Those limited lives, but the level-based vs open world design, makes comparing Mario to Dark Souls rather silly. It's the kind of pedantry that leads to effectively eliminating all points of comparison.

It's also important to make note of how a game presents itself narratively. Some games are not trying to mimic some real life or believably lived-in world for you to inhabit, while some do. And open world games tend to lend themselves to the latter.
Dark Souls has an in-game/lore reasons for enemies respawning and your character being able to come back from the dead, making the whole experience coherent. There's also the fact that in those games, the combat and exploration are the whole game, and they feed off of each other, with the bonfire system.

I can't say how it feels in Pragmata obviously so I'm not really judging it.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

While we're on the subject, is "respawning enemies" really an identity of Souls games? Because last I checked, checkpoints have basically been an industry standard since forever, i.e.: you die, and have to start over from a predetermined point with everything in front of you reset, the only exception being you're able to get to your last point of failure and recoup your losses. In fact, remove getting your "souls" back before dying again basically makes any modern day game an 8-bit test of skill. When the last goomba kills you before reaching the flag in World 1-1, you start at the beginning of world 1-1. Granted you have limited lives, but the concept is the same, so one could argue Souls games are just more beautiful and forgiving.

I think the difference lies in the level design. If you die in Mario to that last goomba, you have to do everything again, in the exact same way. In a Souls game any run can impact on the "level" ahead of you. Doors stay open, ladders stay down, lifts remain operational, and the mini boss in the courtyard is gone forever. And anything you pick up, even if you die getting it, is yours to keep. You're permanently altering the road ahead or creating shortcuts for your next try.

Checkpoints also function as tactical tradeoffs. The only choice in a Mario game is to keep going, and there's little in terms of screwing yourself over. Your chances of success are always pretty much the same (give or take a powerup). In a Souls game sometimes falling back and recharging your health flask at the expense of respawning every enemy is better than to soldier on (and vice versa).

 

[hanselthecaretaker2]

And then there's Dark Souls 2, where if you kill the same non-boss enemy twelve times, it'll permanently stop respawning and get out of your way for the rest of the run, but you also can't use it to grind anymore. So considering that you can just empty out the entire path from the bonfire to the boss if you want or you die to the boss enough times, does it really even count as a "Souls game" by the common definitions?

Caveat being, a bonfire ascetic can be used to reset the area and make enemies and bosses stronger. Basically a shortcut to NG+ for farming stuff.

 

[NerfedFalcon]

Caveat being, a bonfire ascetic can be used to reset the area and make enemies and bosses stronger. Basically a shortcut to NG+ for farming stuff.

Or if you talked to the stone tablet in Majula without realizing what it does, you could end up in the Covenant of Champions and be stuck in NG+1 on your first playthrough with no enemy respawn limits.

 

[BrawlMan]

@hanselthecaretaker2, @CriticalGaming, @NerfedFalcon, @Xprimentyl, @Old_Hunter_77, @Johnny Novgorod, and @The Rogue Wolf:

One form derivative game design I am glad never happened was the original idea for Gungrave GORE. Apparently, Iggymob wanted to turn GORE into Dark Souls game with guns. This idea was abandoned not long after they started beta testing. They could not get it to work, and felt it would betray the arcade nature of the franchise. I know GORE had its struggles, but I will take its struggles to eventually be great arcade shooter, than some Souls clones fans never asked for in the first place, any day of the week.