Why Diablo 3 is a bad game

[zinho73]

Also, I really do not like that the MAH is anonymous.

1. It opens an window for Blizzard to put their own items there; I don't think they will do this, but you know the saying - it is not enough to be honest, you have to look honest.
2. We cannot self regulate the thing: if the same account is posting a lot of great items or selling large amounts of gold, it would be easier to identify bots and exploiters. It seems that Blizzard actually want hose guys around because it is revenue for them.

The whole thing looks like the government gave up to fight the drug cartels and decided to sell cocaine themselves - using the cartel's distribution routes!

 

[ChildishLegacy]

The problem with Diablo 3 is that while the surface is polished to a shine, the core game is a crumbling mess.

Diablo 3 is a bad game - end of. Not by Blizzard standards, just a bad game. It's no Big Rigs, but it's not worth the price tag either, and it's most certainly not worth putting up with Blizzards bullshit.

I don't understand how a game that was in development for 5+ years can still have such issues.

From what I understand somebody thought "1 year til release, TIME FOR A FULL OVERHALL OF THE SKILLS SYSTEM!" and just went to town on quite a solid build of the game (this is what early beta testers say).

My guess is pressure from the publishers to make it more user friendly/console adaptable so it can be sold to the masses.

Apparently at one point you could level up your stats individually and to your liking and you could use any of your skills and not be limited to 6. This pisses me off the most.

 

[rob_simple]

I really wish you'd given this thread a less inflammatory title, OP; I came in here fully ready to go off my nut and instead found myself going, 'uh huh....yes...well that's true enough.'

God dammit, I hate agreeing with people.

 

[Aeshi]

The way items are handled it is quite possible to play for a very long time without finding any upgrade (or just a marginal increment that is in practice useless).

Yes I know, that's where the 'Random' part of 'Random drops' comes from.
.

-but the fact of the matter is that you can pay to get an immediate advantage that will make you progress. A lot.

If I bought some gear in any of the other aforementioned 'pay-to-save-time' games there'd be an immediate advantage too.
.

In fact, some people that loved the game, like Force and Athenne said that the RMAH is a feature that makes people stop playing, simply because they go as far as possible with the power of their wallet and not playing the game.

It can't have made them want to stop playing that badly if they still loved the game.
.

In TF2 you do not need to buy anything to advance in the game - and you do not feel that you need to buy anything in order to advance.

This has more to do with the fact that TF2's difficulty rapidly changes depending on what the other team is like than anything.
.

If you are playing Diablo 3, unless you are terribly lucky, it will come a time in which you will consider the AH as your only option. The RMAH bypass the necessity to even farm for money.

And this is the same as every other game with Random drops, only without the RMAH so it's more 'it will come a time in which you feel like quitting altogether' (and if there was no RMAH in Diablo III this would still happen, just unofficially.)
.

For example, in the current game state, PVP is impossible. The one with bigger wallet would have the more powerful character, no way around it. This is not the case in TF2.

And if there was no official RMAH the one who knew which of the aforementioned unofficial RMAHs to go to would win, or the one whose bigger wallet lets them have the better internet connection, or the one who had the most dumb luck with their drop rolls, or the one whose classed happened to be the most overpowered at the moment...

 

[wadark]

See, the problem is, its an opinion. And personally, I'm less likely to give any credibility to your opinion when you lead with a title like "Why Diablo 3 is a bad game", which seems to imply some sort of objective fact.

OT: I don't want a million quotes in my post so I'll just summarize a few things I read that I agree with fully.

Diablo is not Torchlight. They may be similar games in similar genres but they were made by different teams, different companies, with different goals in mind. A comparison between the two is uesless.

The RMAH, whether you like it or not, would have been there. Go right now to ebay and search for Diablo 2 items, you'll find tons of them. Diablo 2 had the real money AH already, it just had no policing like it does in 3.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

I will nor reply every point> Some things I disagree, but we are not here to win a contest but to discuss and your opinion is as valid as mine.

No worries, I'm just having the discussion. Mind quoting me though so I know you responded?

1. I'm not comparing games, but features in games that try to achieve the same thing. Torchlight solution to randomized levels is far superior and I think it is worth mentioning.

This is a much more specific point, and I would ask that you elaborate on it. How does the system function in Torchlight? And how does it work with specifically programmed encounters?

2. Yes, you can rationalize and give a semi-reasonable explanation to every point I've made. but my issue is that I should never be able to make so many points. In each and everyone of those points a little bit of customization and variety was taken away. As I said, nothing wrong to like things as they are, but Blizzard cannot act surprised when a lot of people are saying that they ran out of things to do and do not feel compelled to continue in the game. Yes, also as I said, this would happen eventually, but even Blizzard recognized in their forums that the burnout was way faster than they anticipated.

True, but I don't think it was a lack of customization that was the problem but the random element of the system itself. Requiring 700+ in All Resists and survivability stats to progress certainly pigeonholes people into specific play styles; thus detracting from the idea of the random element.

The problem with gaming in general though, is that you can nitpick just about every detail which can be rationalized away. Since you brought up Borderlands earlier, I could probably list off an equally subjective list of issues I could suggest changes for (many of which can be extrapolated from your very list). At least, the ones that aren't simply inaccurate to begin with.

3. If you put money in the equation, you attract the worse kind of people: botters, schemers, thieves, greedy bastards. The community is a reflection of the game features, not the other way around.

We may simply have to disagree on this part; the community and the game are always treated separately in my book, but any system which provides community interaction will always result in extremes on both sides. Diablo3's AH is a prime example, as well as any 1st person shooters Deathmatch; I fail to see how either feature brings out both the greedy and the childish. So how is it that a PVP environment such as Starcraft 2 creates a near professionally competitive field, but Command & Conquer does not?

I will agree though, that any system that has potential for profit will attract those looking to make a buck. I can't blame anything for that other than those scheming a profit.

 

[Ruzinus]

Everytime I see a Draech post I become overwhelmed by the cuteness of his/her avatar and lose my train of thought :/

what was I thinking... right.

Diablo III's only huge flaw is that they ended up with a design that discourages multiplayer. No game of this type works forever in single player -- Every game of this type that you have fond memories of playing forever worked because of the inherent fun of multiplayer.

I see so many people complaining about things that are improvements and I just... I have to assume that their base reaction to growing bored of D3 before they grew bored of D2 is to assume that any change between the two was bad, and that all critical thought just entirely shuts down right there.

 

[noreshadow]

I miss westwood....

They had a vary health rivalry witch brought us some awesome games.
after westwood dissolved blizzard seems kinda like its just phoning it in.

 

[Torrasque]

I'll bookmark this thread and read your really long explanation later.
I know D3 is a bad game and I am already really bored with it. I'm trying to keep my interest alive by playing hardcore, but there's only so much hardcore can do.

 

[Kungfu_Teddybear]

Thank fuck this wasn't a rant about how "Online DRM sucks and therefore Diablo III sucks herp derp" or "This game is broken because I have to always be online and I don't have a stable internet connection"

And there's even some points in there I can agree with, so kudos to you. I still don't think Diablo III is a bad game simply because they could have done better. Sure it probably could have been better, but it's still a good game, despite some minor inconveniences. Like I have said in previous threads relating to Diablo III, I have never played Diablo or Diablo II. Perhaps my opinions on certain things would be different had I played them. But as for things like lack of variety and how it's simplified and dumbed down, I wouldn't know anything about that since Diablo III is all I have known from the series, though I do think it could use more customization because even elective mode isn't that great.

The loot needs sorted as well, I realise that loot drops have been lowered because of the RMAH but could we at least get drops that are around our fucking level? I'm sick of finding level 35 shit when I'm level 52.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

Diablo 3 is certainly a game with a lot of problems. A game which could have done MUCH better with a full beta instead of the 2 hour snorefest beta we got. That's the key problem: they put the game out before testing max-level stuff or the effects that the AH would have with millions of people playing.

All of the problems that D3 has (minus people crying about DRM, but who cares about them?) could have been solved by a longer, more extensive beta phase. All of these imbalanced skills, AH problems, Inferno tuning, and item drop rates would have been discovered within 2 weeks of a max-level beta, just like they were within 2 weeks of release.

The only problem that wouldn't have been fixed by a longer beta is the itemization. There's just far too few good stats and far too many garbage ones. Basically any item that isn't some combination of Str/Dex/Int, Vitality, All Resist, and Crit/Crit Dmg/Attack Speed is garbage. Across the board. That's poor game design. What happened to unique skill improvements on items? Life leech (it's in D3, it's just nerfed into uselessness)?

 

[silent299]

Title of thread: "Why Diablo 3 is a bad game"

First, a little bit of history:


Compared to what we have in the market today, Diablo is not a bad game.

...

Diablo 3 is a bad game simply because you could have done a lot better and chose not to.

I am confused, do you like this game or not?

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

You missed the essential part of the OP: that is, when someone or some organization has amazing talent and amazing resources and the produce the merely good, they have failed.

It could have been better, therefore it is a bad game?

Yes because it is about expectations. Kenyan superstar marathon runner comes in fifth in NY marathon = failure. 80 year old stroke victim finishes last in ny marathon after rehab = success. You cannot evaluate something with looking at the context, imo.

 

[zinho73]

1: Items on The AH cannot be obtained without regular gameplay.
Conclusion: nerfing skills is false since you cannot obtain the gear on the ah without someone obtaining it normally.

2: see point one.

3: Everything on the AH is someone else trash. The AH doesn't change your odds. there will still be the same amount of sword of awesome in rotation. If you cant beat the guy who bought the sword you cant beat the guy who sold the sword. Your odds are the same.

4: False conclusion made on the idea that RMAH decided it needed to be online. Fact is Blizzard decided it was to be played online. A RMAH didn't force guild wars to be allways online yet fact remains they could have made it just like Diablo 2 battlenet. Their product is online. Deal with it like you dealt with every other online only product ever.

Skills and farming points are nerfed because if enough people exploits the game, the whole economy crumbles.

The MAH changed your odds before the game was even launched. The ratio time vs reward is the worst I've ever seen in a game of its type. By far. I don't think Blizzard cannot do basic math algorithms. I think they did that on purpose. The problem became worse because they've tied skills with equipment, making the game all about gear check.

 

[zinho73]

Title of thread: "Why Diablo 3 is a bad game"

First, a little bit of history:


Compared to what we have in the market today, Diablo is not a bad game.

...

Diablo 3 is a bad game simply because you could have done a lot better and chose not to.

I am confused, do you like this game or not?

I think you get your money's worth but the whole thing is ultimately disappointing.

 

[Zeriphor]

One of my biggest problems with Diablo 3 is the way they handled the AH. I wouldn't mind it being in the game if they hadn't bent the game around it. They reduced the chance to find a useful item (main stat, vit, resists) because they felt players would use the AH in addition to finding gear. The result of this is that you cannot find gear for yourself. At least, nowhere near as well as you should be able to.

There are other things that I've noticed that cause me to think, "All roads lead to the RMAH," but I can't remember them right now.

 

[zinho73]

The way items are handled it is quite possible to play for a very long time without finding any upgrade (or just a marginal increment that is in practice useless).

Yes I know, that's where the 'Random' part of 'Random drops' comes from.
.

-but the fact of the matter is that you can pay to get an immediate advantage that will make you progress. A lot.

If I bought some gear in any of the other aforementioned 'pay-to-save-time' games there'd be an immediate advantage too.
.

In fact, some people that loved the game, like Force and Athenne said that the RMAH is a feature that makes people stop playing, simply because they go as far as possible with the power of their wallet and not playing the game.

It can't have made them want to stop playing that badly if they still loved the game.
.

In TF2 you do not need to buy anything to advance in the game - and you do not feel that you need to buy anything in order to advance.

This has more to do with the fact that TF2's difficulty rapidly changes depending on what the other team is like than anything.
.

If you are playing Diablo 3, unless you are terribly lucky, it will come a time in which you will consider the AH as your only option. The RMAH bypass the necessity to even farm for money.

And this is the same as every other game with Random drops, only without the RMAH so it's more 'it will come a time in which you feel like quitting altogether' (and if there was no RMAH in Diablo III this would still happen, just unofficially.)
.

For example, in the current game state, PVP is impossible. The one with bigger wallet would have the more powerful character, no way around it. This is not the case in TF2.

And if there was no official RMAH the one who knew which of the aforementioned unofficial RMAHs to go to would win, or the one whose bigger wallet lets them have the better internet connection, or the one who had the most dumb luck with their drop rolls, or the one whose classed happened to be the most overpowered at the moment...

The game is not totally random (if it was it would be the worst game ever). All random number generators are seeded. The smarter you seed, the more rewarding the game becomes. D3 items are poorly seeded (getting level 30 items with a 50 char) and also have a lot of useless afixes, making a good roll even more difficult. This is poor design.

In TF2, the impact of the items you buy is zero if compared to D3.

See my original post about solutions to drastically reduce the impact of a black market. The RMAH is not a measure to mitigate the problem. It is a measure to profit from it. And it gets in the way of gameplay.

Imagine that, as you say, a class is overpowered. To correct this, Blizz would have to jump trough all kinds of programming hoops because it is bad business to nerf stats that people paid a fortune to get. Multiplayer will always be unbalanced, but:
1. Internet connection issues can be improved with time;
2. Overpowered char can be corrected;
3. Luck won't get you the best equipment in every slot - consistently.
4. And gear in D3 is the only difference between characters. Getting better gear utilizing real money is really cheap design.

Sorry, saying that people would try to buy their way in the game anyway so we will allow them officially is a poor rationalization. It is the same thing of saying that I will steal this suitcase that someone forgot in the bench because if I don't others will anyway. It is an ethical shortcut.

There are alternatives to make money and still put the gameplay front and center on your design.

Hell, just a ingame money AH would do wonders to diminish the black market (yeah, people would still buy gold but, once again, see my opening post).

 

[zinho73]

I will nor reply every point> Some things I disagree, but we are not here to win a contest but to discuss and your opinion is as valid as mine.

No worries, I'm just having the discussion. Mind quoting me though so I know you responded?

Sorry about that, trying to avoid massive wall of text but you got a point.

Once again, some disagreements, but I would like to focus on the way Torchlight did it the random environments.

Every area is random - the above area and the underground. And all look very organic and beautiful (in their characteristic art-style). Once the area is generated it stays that way, so the explored areas look consistent, but if you have other characters you will find the same overall quest, but in different locales with different layouts and different sidequests.

They also had a very good use of 3D, with mobs attacking you from above and ambushes, but that's beside the point.

 

[WoW Killer]

Yes because it is about expectations. Kenyan superstar marathon runner comes in fifth in NY marathon = failure. 80 year old stroke victim finishes last in ny marathon after rehab = success. You cannot evaluate something with looking at the context, imo.

We can word this more appropriately. You could say "Diablo 3 did not meet my expectations" or "Diablo 3 should have been better than it is". That is different from saying Diablo 3 is a bad game. In terms of gameplay and of lifespan (and hence of value for money), I would call it an above average game. To say otherwise would be to set a highly unrealistic measure.

Further, what exactly was your expectation? I expected a Diablo style game with some sense of progression over its predecessors in terms of gameplay. By that I mean I wanted a more involved combat style where a greater number of abilities needed to be employed and where their uses were more circumstantial and strategic. On this, Diablo 3 delivered. The hotkeys, resources and cooldowns were a valid and natural progression for the series. It is, at its core (though not necessarily in its content), a superior game to Diablo and Diablo 2. That was what I was looking for, and that is how I rate the game.

Not that I don't have objections of my own. The itemisation is one such gripe. I don't fault the use of primary stats on gear (for one thing this adds a better sense of gear progression), but I do fault having primary stats competing against less important stats in the gear budget. In Inferno, when you have the NV stacks consistently up, then rares will start to drop like nothing else, but then the vast majority of those rares will be vendor trash. This I feel was a mistake. You could instead set the drop rate considerably lower, but itemise the equipment better so that the rares that dropped would be much more likely to be usable pieces. For instance, a spirit stone with strength instead of dexterity is a useless drop. Make them rarer and then make every spirit stone come with dex, and you would have a much more fulfilling system IMO.

 

[fireaura08]

The problem with D3 is that everything was made with the RMAH in mind. Case in point: Inferno difficulty. They nerfed some spells players were using (Diamond Flesh was one of them, forgot the other) and made it much more difficult to go through without good gear, thus the RMAH. Blizzard makes a cut on every RMAH transaction, so naturally they would want to maximize profits as much as possible.