Why do people hate the army?

[Bat Vader]

It seems if you respect the army you're a patriot, and patriotism is bad because it means you hate everyone that isn't from your country. I've had a few 'debates' with escapist members about 'patriotism' every time I say I respect soldiers people rag on me and tell me that I'm a terrible person that should die in a hole.

Wouldn't that be more Nationalism than Patriotism? I respect the men and women that serve in the military. I may not agree with everything they do sometimes but I still respect them.
Yes, there have been a few bad eggs in the military but that does not mean everyone in the military is bad.

 

[getoffmycloud]

Some of the contempt is no doubt misplaced frustration. As A U.S. Citizen I disagree whole heartedly with a some of the decisions my government has made in regard to recent military actions. And some folks tend to confuse the soldier who carries out his/her orders with the politician who drafted the orders to begin with.

At least from my perspective, they're enabling said politicians. Further, they sign up to follow orders. If I give up my autonomy to someone else, why should I be considered free of blame for what they tell me to do when it was my decision to let them give me orders in the first place?

Well that is no different from any job if somebody above you tells you to do something you do it.

One thing people forget is when the shit hits the fan its the military that responds. If there is a massive earthquake or something like that the military are out there helping people while most people just watch it on the evening news.

And as for those saying that there is no need for a large military look what happened to Britain at the start of WW2. They didn't have a large enough or advanced enough army to stop the German's taking Europe yet it's air force which was much better prepared for the job prevented the Germans from invading and stopped them from being able to turn all their attention on the russians.

So it just shows it is always better to be prepared than have to panic and throw something together at the last minute.

 

[EclipseoftheDarkSun]

Well the army is just a subset of society in general, so there are great, responsible, intelligent capable soldiers but also various types of dipshit dragging their reputation down.

So, kudos to the first group, and I hope they do their best to stop the second group abusing civilians and pissing off the locals.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Add to that the fact that 90% of women serving in the military report sexual harassment and 30% have been raped, I just don't see why anyone would volunteer to enter such an environment and propagate attitudes that the military deserves respect.

Can you find the facts to post please? Last I saw the rape rate for deployed US female soldiers was less than, or right at, that of most American public universities...I just want to make sure that things haven't changed. If possible, the actual military reports would be ideal, seeing as how that is an area that the armed forces has very little tolerance for. Not saying the MSM don't have it right, but the raw data is always nice.

Admittedly, these stastics are a few years out of date. I don't know how much has changed since then, but I'm inclined to say very little.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8005198.stm

According to several studies of the US military funded by the Department of Veteran Affairs, 30% of military women are raped while serving, 71% are sexually assaulted, and 90% are sexually harassed.

The Department of Defense acknowledges the problem, estimating in its 2009 annual report on sexual assault (issued last month) that some 90% of military sexual assaults are never reported.

That was a google search I don't intend to repeat. How awful.

 

[Ziame]

Just two things: people join the army oftrn from the must position - e.g. to get their uni paid, so not exactly murderous assholes (and in Mericuh, uni is fucking expensive, hundreds of thousands and stuff, so McD wont help ya)

Also, other countries dont invade because your country is an asshole for God's sake. Wrong time period. I can bet my ass that if Mericuh said 'no more army' and disbanded it, China would invade the shit out of them, cause of oil, gold, land, etc. not because they're not nice.

 

[Rottweiler]

(snip)

So you think the majority of civilian deaths is made up by opposing forces as a means of propaganda ?
That foreign aid is money completly pissed away and that the UN is a useless mockery of an organization ?

Yet, you rock up here and complain about the IGNORANT hatred and contempt toward what YOU used to do for a job and how misguided and simplistic people judge what YOU used to do and how what YOU used to do turns out to be actually much more valuable than the "preconcieved notions" of people make them think ?


That´s..... just awesome.
You DO realize that you just gave the perfect example for why some people tend to dislike military and ex-military personel ?
Because they often tend to spout the exact same bullshit you just let loose, while crying about how unfairly and ignorant everyone else treats them.

(snip)

What's even more awesome is you took one example, have completely spun it into universal statements I *didn't* make, and now I'm a perfect example of something?

This is what I actually said:

"I always find it so interesting how people say 'rar they killed civilians' but when you say 'and how do you feel about the enemy, who actively hides amongst civilians and uses their deaths for propaganda purposes?' you get a whole lot of nothing.

"Well, uh...they...uh...CIVILIAN DEATHS! Most of them reported by people who have a massive bias against the military and who need every bit of propaganda they can get! But we believe them because it fits our preconceived notions!"

I never saw IGNORANT, could you show me where I put that in there? Or how did you put it:

"So you think the majority of civilian deaths is made up by opposing forces as a means of propaganda ?"

Did I say that in there? I completely missed that.

Now, why don't you use things I *actually* said and we can have a rational discourse.

Because *you* gave the perfect example of someone taking things to an extreme which fits your personal agenda, and ignoring that actual words and sense behind them that were actually posted.

*You*, sir, are the awesome one.


P.S. I will stand up for thinking the UN is a useless organization. Because that's what I think.

 

[LetalisK]

Wouldn't that be more Nationalism than Patriotism?

Some people see no difference between the two.

 

[manic_depressive13]

See, you're assuming American military is the same as any other military.

My cousin is in the Australian Army, you know what he does? No, he doesn't kill civilians, he disarms IED's in villages and builds bridges where they are needed. Take a look at any footage from the war in recent years. Commanding Officers have regular meets with the locals in order to keep a friendly relationship going so that they can help them.

Not to mention, of course the civilian death numbers will be high due to them fighting against guerrillas using unconventional tactics. If you can't tell your enemy from a local of course there are going to be unnecessary deaths, but that is a part of war and has always been a part of war.

Disregarding all that. You still have men and women who volunteer their lives in service to help others. If you can't respect someone for putting their lives at risk everyday of their own accord. You're a pretty fucking sad individual.

Then perhaps you could explain to me why malnutrition rates in Iraq have gone up by 9% since we invaded, if we're so busy helping them?

Also, I'd appreciate it if you stopped swearing at me. If being opposed to needless wars makes me a "fucking sad individual", so be it. It's not quite as pathetic as watching you bend over backwards trying to justify occupying countries we invaded illegally.

 

[Rottweiler]

And, I must apologize to The Amazing Hobo:

I missed the instance of the word 'ignorant' he referred to, and he did in fact see the word in my post.

The word 'ignorant' he capitalized was in reference to this:

"Having been a soldier, I maintain a great deal of respect for fellow soldiers (serving or served) and I've seen much of the ignorant hatred and contempt."

I've seen a lot of the ignorant hatred and contempt for Militaries. That is completely true. Not terribly sure what the problem with saying that is.

I have seen a lot of hatred towards soldiers based entirely on utter ignorance. Not sure what else to say there.

 

[Aprilgold]

Soliders, good people and I like them for protecting our country.

Armies can go to hell because they are used to perpetuate ones power over others when, in fact, with things like the internet that we are so close to common understanding that if we dropped all units and instead focused on creating a better place without killing eachother, we would get further as a species.

Best way to put the army in general, its a bunch of old dudes who are past their generation of understanding controlling young dudes who are in a new generation of understanding to wage wars against those for things that only matter in the short term, not the long term.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

And, I must apologize to The Amazing Hobo:

I missed the instance of the word 'ignorant' he referred to, and he did in fact see the word in my post.

The word 'ignorant' he capitalized was in reference to this:

"Having been a soldier, I maintain a great deal of respect for fellow soldiers (serving or served) and I've seen much of the ignorant hatred and contempt."

I've seen a lot of the ignorant hatred and contempt for Militaries. That is completely true. Not terribly sure what the problem with saying that is.

I have seen a lot of hatred towards soldiers based entirely on utter ignorance. Not sure what else to say there.

And I guess I should really apologize to you.
The sinuation that you implied that the majority of civilian deaths is made up was not in your post, is was just my rhetoric going haywire.

Still,
you see a lot of ignorant hatred and contempt for Militaries.
I see a lot of ignorant hatred and contempt for people who work in foreign aid (which you said is pissing money away) and the UN (which you said is useless).
So we are both seeing a lot of hatred and contempt.
So everybody is awesome.

P.S.: I don´t have a personal agenda (apart from pointing out that you complain about hatred towards and devalueing of the military, while devalueing what the UN and Foreing Aid does)
I actually really like military personel.
Otherwise, I wouldn´t let one **** me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

IMHO, it's because the times my nation's military follows the US into a clusterfuck gets the attention.

In Vietnam, despite being fucked over by the US military and avoiding making the same mistakes (despite US pressure on them to do so), people back at home heard about the US atrocities and Australian troops got tarred with the same brush.

Nowdays, following the US into Iraq for bullshit reasons hasn't helped.

But what's really annoying is that nobody remembers the successful operations that were morally sound. RAMSI, for example, or East Timor (though there is a bit of a grey area there).

 

[Rottweiler]

See, and the thing is- I do have reasons I despise the UN.

And to clarify...I guess what I dislike is that the UN, instead of being what it should be, gets used for a lot of petty national grudge matches.

And to be fair, not all foreign aid is bad, I have to retract some of that. But, when you go down the lists...so much of it gets given and never gets to the actual suffering people, that either we put some kind of overwatch on it or we might as well stop.

 

[manic_depressive13]

I refuse to respect anyone who makes their living by killing or wounding others, so anyone in any military basically. If no country had armies and didn't waste billions of pounds, dollars, euros, yen etc on military funding we could've done so much good in the place of the atrocities and murders going on.

That isn't a particularly realistic criticism. It's not as if all countries will simply cooperate to lay down arms. Some would simply not agree to it. And if other countries do give up their militaries while others do not they put themselves in a vulnerable position. It wouldn't make sense for them to do so.

RedBird's suggestion is a hypothetical from which you can easily extrapolate valid criticism. It's not unrealistic to suggest making a deal to drastically reduce, rather than abolish each country's military spending. Alternatively, you could fund only homeland defence and withdraw troops from overseas, which would also save a lot of money. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? If we each need a military superior to other country's militaries, wouldn't that just result in an endless arms race at the cost of genuine causes that need funding? It's America's belief that it can keep shovelling money into its already inflated military budget without negative repercussions which is unrealistic.

 

[Grey Day for Elcia]

Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine that swallows lives and shits out money and lies for its people to swallow, so they can better sleep at night while the government sends their children to foreign lands they have no right to be in, to slaughter its inhabitants and/or be slaughtered themselves.

That's pretty much why.

 

[Kenny Kondom]

I don't have a 'problem' with the Army, or the Navy, or the RAF per-say. My Dad was an Engineer in the Army, and served in both the Gulf and the Falklands, and although he never got to see 'Proper action' [Which he was quite relieved about, because he worries about how he much he might of changed if he had too shoot someone - OR get shot] he found the experience to be good charater building (for things like self discipline, teamwork and efficiency) and a method to quickly develop his engineering skills, which landed him the role of car test engineer he currently holds down - Plus it pissed off his Dad heh.

My problem stems not from the Army itself, but the means that controlls it and deploys it. I never voted for this Government, and was too young to have voted for the previous Govn, but they are the ones who sent us to War in Iraq etc. I have more of a trust issue as to WHY we are going to war, because all the evidence insofar has show it was a War to obtain oil to further expand the Govn's Coffers. And from what I know, I havent seen any this, so they cannot claim to be doing it for the benifit of the Nation as a whole.

And unfortunatley because of this, I see Armed forces as a Lap-Dog for the already powerful Government Establishment. I can't help it I'm 'faid. And it maybe true that my veiws are skewd to an extent (For example, I am currently on Student loans which the Governement provided. I have no idea whether this has come from the Oil money or not.) and I haven't kept too close of an eye upon the World situation, and Hence, Armed Force deployments, and have no idea as to how well/bad it is doing for "my" personal benefit. [Seems a selfish way of viewing the Army, but i feel the idea of fighting for anything would be better steered towards providing safety for you loved ones and friends rather than Nation Vs Nation Pride/Politics.]

IN SUMMARY:

In Short, nothing wrong with the Army, just the powers above them. It displays a little bit of Patriotic feeling to join, but there is an extremely obvious line between "Patriotic" and "Racist". Other countries shouldn't be Poo-Pooed or disrespected. Patriotism is about promoting your own country, not shitting on someone elses.

 

[Texas Joker 52]

Now, I have never, and possibly will never understand that kind of view of the military. Though, to be fair, part of my own views on the matter are biased due to the fact that both of my parents were in the military: My mom was an Army Nurse, while my dad was a Paratrooper, LRRP (Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol, think of the more stealthy counterpart to the Army Rangers. Both equally dangerous, but for different reasons.), and helped with R&D for UAVs. I practically grew up on the funny Army stories dad would tell me, though he would avoid actual war stories.

For me, the military is something to be respected, if only for the reason that they put their lives on the line to serve our country, and protect our freedom and ideals. That's regardless if you happen to be in combat arms, or in a support role. Now, that won't give people an automatic free-ticket from me, but I definitely give someone who is in the military more respect that any other random stranger, simply because of the duty they have.

Of course, from the stories I've heard from my dad, the Army has plenty of idiots running rampant for the hell of it, unfortunately.

The thing is, those who serve in the military do something that many ordinary people can't, whether that's due to a lack of mental fortitude, physical capability, or simple lack of skills. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but the fact that they do that, and voluntarily, is something to be lauded.

So no, I see no reason why one shouldn't respect the Army and its men and women, at least not in our case.

 

[Sexy Devil]

Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

The minority of dumb-asses who do stupid crap overseas paint the entire defense force in a bad name just because people see what they want to see. Though a good indicator that the guy who argued with you is a dumb-ass who is to be ignored is that he appears to actually take the UN seriously.

 

[teebeeohh]

it's a huge waste of money and if you keep pumping money and SCIENCE into weapons someone will want to use those weapons at some point.
the military tends to to attract a certain group of people who feel like i owe them something because they decided to to join the army because they lacked the qualification to do anything else. of course that doesn't apply to everyone but i know a lot of people who act like this and the one decent soldier i know joined the army because in return for signing up for 15 years they let him study medicine.

i get that soldiers want to believe that they are doing good work, especially since they put their life on the line but that there seem to be so few capable of reflecting on what they are doing bugs me.

 

[TheAmazingHobo]

See, and the thing is- I do have reasons I despise the UN.

And to clarify...I guess what I dislike is that the UN, instead of being what it should be, gets used for a lot of petty national grudge matches.

It´s true, there is a lot of pointless grand-standing and, as you said, petty national grudge matches, especially in the visible and higher-up parts of the UN (the General Assembly and even more so the Security Council, dear god, the Security Council). But there is also UNICEF and other, smaller sub-organizations, like the UNV. Which, sure, have problems of their own, but there are many good people there, doing good work.

I guess in the end, I don´t like it when any Organization trying to do good, gets judged in a very generalized manner, especially the military and people working in/with foreign aid (there are people I love working in either field).

And to be fair, not all foreign aid is bad, I have to retract some of that. But, when you go down the lists...so much of it gets given and never gets to the actual suffering people, that either we put some kind of overwatch on it or we might as well stop.

That´s.... sadly true enough, I suppose.
I could disagree in quantitiy (I think the amount of money that goes to dicators and regimes is not as much as people make it out to be and certainly not the majority, as some would argue),
not in quality (there IS money that goes to dictators and regimes, and that should be abhorrent to every human being), so I can only agree that we need better overwatch.