Why do People love Valve so much?

[chozo_hybrid]

Origin lets you log into it's client without an internet connection.

Origin wins by that alone.

Being honest about this, as long as I exit Steam and not have my PC force it off when I shut my computer down, it allows me to access offline mode after trying to connect when my net has been out every time, as long as it is on the same computer. When you exit Steam I think it saves a little bit of login info etc that allows this. Problem most people have is that they just shut their PC down and have it force things to close, things like Steam.

This is my personal experience, I don't know if others who do the same as me vary in results, but just thought I'd throw in my two cents

 

[TreuloseTomate]

I became a Valve "fan" because of The Orange Box.

 

[Nomanslander]

Because they're the band of nerdy developers we like.

You see, for major game buffs like us, we've gone past liking just the game, we know who the developers are not just professionally but personally. When you play as many games as we do, you get the sense of who the developers are through their games and how ow the studio is run.

Let's go back to the original Half Life. Back then we had another developer of FPS games that was also big called id that made Doom and Quake. As much as gamers loved those games, they were also pretty dumb and we got the sense that the devs were also a bit pretentious. You think of early id and you think of John Romero and John Carmack. Now came Valve with Half Life, and the game was smarter, the developers wanted to tell a progressing story, and the main character was a nerd that took on douchbag marines. As nerds ourselves, we really found ourselves to like Valve from the very beginning.

Valve are the cool nerds that in the end, create games and have business practices that evoke our sensibilities.

They always create games with unique gameplay mechanics that are revolutionary. With Half Life 2, they made NPCs more human with their models and facial expressions... a common development practice now, but Valve started it. They introduced physics into a game and made it a staple. In almost all their games, the characters are multiracial instead of all white dudes, sometimes mixed races. Alyx Vance is probably the first black Asian character in any video game... and I can't even tell you want Chell is. They're a big supporter of PC game in an age almost every major developer has given up on it.

This is why we love Valve.

Now let's look at other development teams and why they don't hold up.

Epic Games: they created one of the most douchiest dudebros game series ever: Gears of War. Character aesthetics are based on brooding 90s characters and racial stereotypes (Cole train). Three games and barely any evolution in the Gears series. Cliffy motherfucking B.

Bethesda: Their games never have any really refinement or polish to any game play aspect. Buggy games... so f-ing buggy. They bought out Fallout series and turned it into something different; pissing off a lot of original FO fans.

Bioware: Now here are a group of developers that use to stand for a lot of what gamers use to love, but recently they've seemed to have "sold out," and are now making games with more mainstream appeal. I don't think I have any better examples than DA2 and ME3 when it comes to this.

Irrational Games: we all love Bioshock and Bioshock: infinite. But Ken Levine is starting to come across... or, well I'm personally sorta worried he might turn into the M. Night Shyamalan of video games.

Naughty Dog: they like to make games that are "cinematic." Need I say more.

Blizzard: so, when can we expect another game from these guys, 2056? WoW is evil. They ruined my life with their addicting, time consuming games. WoW is evil! So you made 50 godgillion dollars on WoW, when can we expect this Titan MMO... what's that? 4034 AD?

Rockstar: They think they're "rockstars," well... aren't they cute. They spent 100 million dollars on GTA4 just so I can drive your fat cousin Roman around a fake town and play darts with him and go to comedy clubs to listen to bad comics. No refinement in any gameplay aspect, instead you get a thousands tutorials on how to use a cell phone. They're stories are B quality and all their games have toilet humor. Hot coffee.

 

[Gameguy20100]

Because they're the band of nerdy developers we like.

You see, for major game buffs like us, we've gone past liking just the game, we know who the developers are not just professionally but personally. When you play as many games as we do, you get the sense of who the developers are through their games and how ow the studio is run.

Let's go back to the original Half Life. Back then we had another developer of FPS games that was also big called id that made Doom and Quake. As much as gamers loved those games, they were also pretty dumb and we got the sense that the devs were also a bit pretentious. You think of early id and you think of John Romero and John Carmack. Now came Valve with Half Life, and the game was smarter, the developers wanted to tell a progressing story, and the main character was a nerd that took on douchbag marines. As nerds ourselves, we really found ourselves to like Valve from the very beginning.

Valve are the cool nerds that in the end, create games and have business practices that evoke our sensibilities.

They always create games with unique gameplay mechanics that are revolutionary. With Half Life 2, they made NPCs more human with their models and facial expressions... a common development practice now, but Valve started it. They introduced physics into a game and made it a staple. In almost all their games, the characters are multiracial instead of all white dudes, sometimes mixed races. Alyx Vance is probably the first black Asian character in any video game... and I can't even tell you want Chell is. They're a big supporter of PC game in an age almost every major developer has given up on it.

This is why we love Valve.

Now let's look at other development teams and why they don't hold up.

Epic Games: they created one of the most douchiest dudebros game series ever: Gears of War. Character aesthetics are based on brooding 90s characters and racial stereotypes (Cole train). Three games and barely any evolution in the Gears series. Cliffy motherfucking B.

Bethesda: Their games never have any really refinement or polish to any game play aspect. Buggy games... so f-ing buggy. They bought out Fallout series and turned it into something different; pissing off a lot of original FO fans.

Bioware: Now here are a group of developers that use to stand for a lot of what gamers use to love, but recently they've seemed to have "sold out," and are now making games with more mainstream appeal. I don't think I have any better examples than DA2 and ME3 when it comes to this.

Irrational Games: we all love Bioshock and Bioshock: infinite. But Ken Levine is starting to come across... or, well I'm personally sorta worried he might turn into the M. Night Shyamalan of video games.

Naughty Dog: they like to make games that are "cinematic." Need I say more.

Blizzard: so, when can we expect another game from these guys, 2056? WoW is evil. They ruined my life with their addicting, time consuming games. WoW is evil! So you made 50 godgillion dollars on WoW, when can we expect this Titan MMO... what's that? 4034 AD?

Rockstar: They think they're "rockstars," well... aren't they cute. They spent 100 million dollars on GTA4 just so I can drive your fat cousin Roman around a fake town and play darts with him and go to comedy clubs to listen to bad comics. No refinement in any gameplay aspect, instead you get a thousands tutorials on how to use a cell phone. They're stories are B quality and all their games have toilet humor. Hot coffee.

While whats all fair I have to say you could have just said "I like them so shut up" and I would be satisfied.

P.s who the hell is Chell?

 

[black_knight1337]

Yeah, I've never really got all this love for Valve. The only thing that I like about then is Steam. And that's purely for the sales they have. Outside of those it's consistently causing problems. Their games? Sure, they're decent, but there are plenty of other devs that make decent games and don't get anywhere near the amount of praise that Valve does.

And another thing is their lack of creativity with new IPs. Seriously, they suck when it comes to this. Go on, count how many IPs they've actually come with them themselves. Got it? Okay, well, here's a rude awakening for you. The answer is two. That's right, a measly two in 17 years. And I know you're thinking 'but they've made half life and team fortress and counter strike and portal...' That first one is right, but the others aren't. Half-Life and Ricochet are the only IPs that they have come up with in house. Team Fortress, Counter Strike, Day of Defeat, Alien Swarm and Dota all started off as mods. Left 4 Dead? That was made by Turtle Rock Studios. Haven't heard of them? Well that's because Valve bought them out, got them to finish Left 4 Dead for them and then let them become independent again. Portal? That was created by Nuclear Monkey Studios as the spiritual successor to their senior game project, Narbacular Drop. So yeah, they haven't come up with much. They manage to snipe the decent ideas though, can't fault them for that.

-Excellent customer service

Heh, "Excellent" is a hell of a long way off from my experiences with them. Four times in the past I've had this particularly nasty bug where Steam would just lock up on the logging in bit. Nothing I did would change that so of course, I contacted Valve and explained what was happening. Three out of the four times I got no response at all. The other time they just suggested general stuff, like restarting my computer and reinstalling. Neither of which worked. Told them that and once again, got no response. Ended up digging through a heap of forums for about a week and found the solution. I had to do a clean reinstall but in a different directory.
And then there was the time I got my account hacked. Contacted Valve and they told me to provide cd-keys to prove it was my account. So I pulled out a bunch of Steam games, took photos of them like they asked and sent them in. Wanna know what their response was? That evidence to the contrary had been provided by the guy who hacked my account. How I'm supposed to have more evidence than someone who can click view cd-key on all my games, idk.

 

[DoPo]

Its called stockholm syndrome. Seriously people love valve because they are used to them and there is a massive amount of games on steam.

Wait, so you're telling me that Valve have created time travel and mind control rays to make me like them before there was Steam when I played Half-Life. Huh, who knew. I mean, you gotta give them props for going to such lengths - breaking time and space for their eeevil agenda. EA loses marks here - that's why people don't like them - EA isn't trying hard enough, just pretending laws of the world matter.

While whats all fair I have to say you could have just said "I like them so shut up" and I would be satisfied.

That would be a fucking novelty. But something in the way you've NEVER DONE IT tells me you wouldn't have.

P.s who the hell is Chell?

The main character in Portal.

 

[Gameguy20100]

Its called stockholm syndrome. Seriously people love valve because they are used to them and there is a massive amount of games on steam.

Wait, so you're telling me that Valve have created time travel and mind control rays to make me like them before there was Steam when I played Half-Life. Huh, who knew. I mean, you gotta give them props for going to such lengths - breaking time and space for their eeevil agenda. EA loses marks here - that's why people don't like them - EA isn't trying hard enough, just pretending laws of the world matter.

While whats all fair I have to say you could have just said "I like them so shut up" and I would be satisfied.

That would be a fucking novelty. But something in the way you've NEVER DONE IT tells me you wouldn't have.

P.s who the hell is Chell?

The main character in Portal.

I thought the main Character was nameless I never heard anyone call her Chell that Said I have only played the first one so I'm probably talking out of ignorance.

 

[Zenn3k]

Cause their games aren't terrible? Perfect is a bit much, but they have really never released a BAD game, not one. Which is very impressive.

 

[Shpongled]

Yeah, I've never really got all this love for Valve. The only thing that I like about then is Steam. And that's purely for the sales they have. Outside of those it's consistently causing problems. Their games? Sure, they're decent, but there are plenty of other devs that make decent games and don't get anywhere near the amount of praise that Valve does.

That's because all those other developers don't do Steam, like you just said. Developer that does Steam + decent games = developer that's probably going to be more popular than developer that just does decent games. Besides that lots of developers get loads of praise. CDProjekt, Obsidian, Bioware were worshiped prior to DA2/ME3, Nintendo, i could go on. Maybe those developers don't get quite as much praise as Valve, but they certainly get a hell of a lot less shit, so it evens out really.

Also i don't know what all these other problems are that Steam is consistently causing. Unless having all my games in one easy to access place, downloadable wherever, whenever, along with a functional community system overlaying almost all games, is a problem.

Also, I'm assuming you got your account back in the end or you'd be kicking up a massive stink about not getting it back at all, which you aren't. Clearly they managed to work through the problem for you in the end, you can't really expect more than that from them. And your bug problem sounds exceedingly specific to your PC alone, and the solution so simple i can't help but feel you could have solved that yourself with minimal effort, especially considering you found the answer on the internet anyway.

 

[Austin Howe]

Valve games are, in general, Die Hard, absolutely EXCELLENT executions of structure and design that do absolutely NOTHING to rise above just being a video game.

Ahh What did you expect from their GAMES? To cure your cancer? To bring about the world peace ?Which games out there transcend their medium and become something more? Why does that sound so pretentious? Why is the sky blue?

The phrase "just a game" here only refers to quality, not medium. Valve games are in general quite good, but they're not at all transcendent pieces. Again, Die Hard. Valve has not made a single game aside from the two Portal titles that I would tell people who do not play video games to play. Hideo Kojima on the other hand? Bethesda? (despite the fact that they still need to hire actual writers?) 90's Square titles? Even Mario games manage some degree of transcendence by taking their lack of narrative cohesion and building the appropriate atmosphere for the task at hand by completely throwing out the rulebook on realism and saying "Fuck it, here's your abstract surrealist platformer. The soundtrack is like, this Caribbean steel drum stuff! Check it out!"

Games can be more than what Valve has to offer. That's all I'm saying.

Also, nice claiming that I need games to cure my cancer. Not just cancer, my cancer. Real classy.

 

[bafrali]

snip

First of all it was a fucking joke!

As for the rest I think It is rather pretentious to dismiss hardwork just becuase it is not being IN YOUR FACE with its features. It is called being subtle. Something every AAA developer ever seems to have forgotten. What you call style, I would call overcompensating with excessive action, redundant dialogue and pretentious story telling that is too stuck up its own ass. I see mediocrity that is covered up by empty words, bloom and whimsy.

I also love the mindset that normal people wouldn't play a game if they don't see a bloom of colours or read a quotation from some philosopher at the beginning of the game. News flash! Not every person has ADD. Some of us enjoy the kind of production that has confidence in itself and the attention span of its audience.

You think people are praising HalfLife for its gameplay after all these years? No! It taught us that you don't have to crank something up to eleven to cover the rest of the shit. You just need to have balance, pacing and some cleverness in your game design and story.

And again It was a fuking joke. You know, nothing personal?

 

[G-Force]

-Excellent customer service

Heh, "Excellent" is a hell of a long way off from my experiences with them. Four times in the past I've had this particularly nasty bug where Steam would just lock up on the logging in bit. Nothing I did would change that so of course, I contacted Valve and explained what was happening. Three out of the four times I got no response at all. The other time they just suggested general stuff, like restarting my computer and reinstalling. Neither of which worked. Told them that and once again, got no response. Ended up digging through a heap of forums for about a week and found the solution. I had to do a clean reinstall but in a different directory.
And then there was the time I got my account hacked. Contacted Valve and they told me to provide cd-keys to prove it was my account. So I pulled out a bunch of Steam games, took photos of them like they asked and sent them in. Wanna know what their response was? That evidence to the contrary had been provided by the guy who hacked my account. How I'm supposed to have more evidence than someone who can click view cd-key on all my games, idk.

Examples of good service

- Steam sales
- Free game giveaways
- Added content to their games for free
- Easy online online game invite/joining service
- Steamgreen light allows for smaller games to get better exposure
- Steam is able to sell niche art games

 

[Lovely Mixture]

And then there was the time I got my account hacked. Contacted Valve and they told me to provide cd-keys to prove it was my account. So I pulled out a bunch of Steam games, took photos of them like they asked and sent them in. Wanna know what their response was? That evidence to the contrary had been provided by the guy who hacked my account. How I'm supposed to have more evidence than someone who can click view cd-key on all my games, idk.

Did that eventually get resolved? I had my account phished last year, and they got it back to me without any hassle.

 

[Colt47]

Love seems like a strong word for Steam and Valve. It's more along the lines of toleration as the system may be DRM, but it automatically updates the games in a players library and offer a convenient system for keeping track of the gaming library. The one thing I'm against is having every single video game company coming up with their own mini-version of steam to run in the background. One steam is enough: either don't upload the game to steam and use a web based solution for keeping track of game purchases like amazon, or use steam.

 

[black_knight1337]

That's because all those other developers don't do Steam, like you just said. Developer that does Steam + decent games = developer that's probably going to be more popular than developer that just does decent games. Besides that lots of developers get loads of praise. CDProjekt, Obsidian, Bioware were worshiped prior to DA2/ME3, Nintendo, i could go on. Maybe those developers don't get quite as much praise as Valve, but they certainly get a hell of a lot less shit, so it evens out really.

Mhmm, I agree completely. It's just that I can't not see it as highly exaggerated.

Also i don't know what all these other problems are that Steam is consistently causing. Unless having all my games in one easy to access place, downloadable wherever, whenever, along with a functional community system overlaying almost all games, is a problem.

There's that bug that I had in the last post, there's the fact that it's 'offline mode' still can be a hassle. It's a lot better than before, but that isn't really saying too much. It consistently wants to reinstall pre-requisites for games. The checkout part of the Store doesn't work at all on a slow connection. If you want more go back a bit in my posting history for a Steam bug thread that was around a while ago.

Also, I'm assuming you got your account back in the end or you'd be kicking up a massive stink about not getting it back at all, which you aren't. Clearly they managed to work through the problem for you in the end, you can't really expect more than that from them. And your bug problem sounds exceedingly specific to your PC alone, and the solution so simple i can't help but feel you could have solved that yourself with minimal effort, especially considering you found the answer on the internet anyway.

Actually no, I never got my account back. The reason why I'm making a big fuss over it now is because I'm long past doing that. And that bug isn't "specific to my PC alone". Firstly, it's happened on two of my PCs. Secondly, there have been plenty of reports of the same thing. And sure the solution is "simple" but it is also highly unintuitive. It's like how oblivion is(or at least was) with mods. That even after removing every trace of a mod, the game would still somehow pick it up unless you reinstalled it in a different directory.

Examples of good service

- Steam sales
- Free game giveaways
- Added content to their games for free
- Easy online online game invite/joining service
- Steamgreen light allows for smaller games to get better exposure
- Steam is able to sell niche art games

Eh, taken out of context but I'll bite. Agreed with the sales, that's the one thing that I do really like about them. Game giveaways? iirc there's only been one. That one where they gave someone every Steam game, would've generated quite a bit of money. Unless you count Dota 2, which is pretty much F2P at this stage. Free patches? That's just an expectation for any dev. Easy game invite/joining service? That's just a standard. Pretty much every multiplayer I've played in recent times has had a system much like Steam. Steam greenlight allows for smaller games to get better exposure? Except that's been called a failure by pretty much everyone. This, "better exposure", is ~15 000 people. Really isn't much when you look at the big picture. Steam is able to sell niche art games? So... what's your point? Anyone can sell niche art games.

Did that eventually get resolved? I had my account phished last year, and they got it back to me without any hassle.

Nope, never got my account back. Thankfully I had a couple of mates who helped me out in the next few months to get my current account to where my old one was.

 

[G-Force]

Eh, taken out of context but I'll bite. Agreed with the sales, that's the one thing that I do really like about them. Game giveaways? iirc there's only been one. That one where they gave someone every Steam game, would've generated quite a bit of money. Unless you count Dota 2, which is pretty much F2P at this stage. Free patches? That's just an expectation for any dev. Easy game invite/joining service? That's just a standard. Pretty much every multiplayer I've played in recent times has had a system much like Steam. Steam greenlight allows for smaller games to get better exposure? Except that's been called a failure by pretty much everyone. This, "better exposure", is ~15 000 people. Really isn't much when you look at the big picture. Steam is able to sell niche art games? So... what's your point? Anyone can sell niche art games.

The giveaways happen a bit more often. Randomly they'll give away games like Portal and other titles such as the big Christmas event they had. I managed to get L4D 1, Max Payne and Portal 2 for FREE. Then there was Black Mensa Source which redid Half Life The patches you are not giving enough credit, these are bug fix patches I'm talking about add on content that other publishers would charge money for.

Team Fortress added new weapons to each class update (before it went free). Man vs Machine which was a completely new game mode with enemies was also added free of charge

L4D 1 added a new level for free same with L4D2. In addition to that L4D2 allowed players to revisit L4D1 maps but with all the upgrades from 2 regardless of the fact if you owned the first game or not.

When I was referring to easy game joining I was talking about Steam's system where you could join in on a friend's game without them sending an invite. Most other games you need a formal invite using the system's dashboard unless it was an MMO. Also my point about the art games is while anyone can sell niche art games many publishers don't. You won't see experimental titles like Thirty Flights of Loving come to xbox live or To the Moon hitting PSN.

 

[Gameguy20100]

As I surf the web waiting for my gargoyles Episode to Buffer I have to wonder why do people seem to love Valve for everything I don't get it.

The most common Reasons I get are these.

Steam:
Now I almost never buy games digitally so I avoid Origin and Uplay which People don't mind but I get a lot of shit for this Steam has all the problems other DDS's have why forgive them for all of it and demonize others for the same stuff?

Because Steam is 100x less intrusive and actually offers INCENTIVE to use it as opposed to being a hassle like Origin or Windows Live.

Their games are perfect:
They haven't released a new game in years and ALL of them are greatly over-hyped at least for me

2004: Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source
2005: Day of Defeat Source
2006: HL2 Episode 1
2007: HL2 Episode 2, Portal, Team Fortress 2
2008: Left 4 Dead
2009: Left 4 Dead 2
2010: None
2011: Portal 2
2012: Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
2013: DOTA 2

Not half bad for a DEVELOPER that also manages a FREE digital distribution service, constant updates for most of its games, FREE DLC, community mod spotlights and support, etc.

They don't do Micro-payments or DRM:



Yes they do ok Steam IS drm and TF2 has Micro-payments what about all those hats?
Now don't give me that "its purely cosmetic" bullshit that's my Problem, they don't do anything and you never see them because it's first person so what's the point of them?

TF2's micro payments are 100% optional. You can obtain ANY item in the game simply by playing it, OR if you're impatient and want to spend money, you can. How is that a bad thing? It's like saying "Here, here's some cool stuff you can unlock by playing the game, but if you're too busy you can pay extra for it too - AND we'll even pay the person who created the stuff!!!" I can't believe you think this is a bad thing.

Steam is DRM. Steam also allows you to play offline. Also, Gabe Newell has said that if Steam even closes shop, they will release patches to remove the DRM from all of the games. So... problem?

Am I missing something Valve Fans? tell me what's so great about them what have the done that's so wonderful? please Tell me its been bugging me for months!!

1. They treat their customers with respect
2. They offer a service that caters of our needs/wants
3. They make fun games
4. They almost always reply to emails (not ALWAYS, but almost always... seriously, try it. http://www.valvesoftware.com/email.php
5. I emailed Valve to ask them about a character from L4D2's outfit (Ellis) because i was going as him for Halloween. They mailed me Ellis' tow truck hat for free. Just because I asked.

Now you answer a question for ME... What has Valve ever done to you that makes you hate them so much?

Arent all micro payments optional?

and I don't hate them hell I love Left 4 Dead 1 and 2 I just don't understand why everyone considers them as some sort of god they seem like anyother company to me

 

[black_knight1337]

The giveaways happen a bit more often. Randomly they'll give away games like Portal and other titles such as the big Christmas event they had. I managed to get L4D 1, Max Payne and Portal 2 for FREE.

Huh, in the 5 years I've been using Steam I've never seen these happen.

Then there was Black Mensa Source which redid Half Life The patches you are not giving enough credit, these are bug fix patches I'm talking about add on content that other publishers would charge money for.

Team Fortress added new weapons to each class update (before it went free). Man vs Machine which was a completely new game mode with enemies was also added free of charge

L4D 1 added a new level for free same with L4D2. In addition to that L4D2 allowed players to revisit L4D1 maps but with all the upgrades from 2 regardless of the fact if you owned the first game or not.

Black Mesa isn't anything to do with Valve. It was made by modders. As for the patches, they happen all the time. And I'm not talking about bug fixes either. The Witcher 2 had a patch that was over 1GB a while ago, added a bunch of content. Skyrim got mounted combat added to it (among other things). Dungeon Defenders has gotten heaps of new items and levels. All of Blizzard's games (of late) have gotten content updates. The list just goes on and on. It's not something that only Valve does, or even a handful of devs do. It's actually done by a hell of a lot of devs nowadays.

When I was referring to easy game joining I was talking about Steam's system where you could join in on a friend's game without them sending an invite. Most other games you need a formal invite using the system's dashboard unless it was an MMO.

Blizzard's battle.net service has the same thing, unless the game was tagged as private ofc. Plus, I don't really get the point of differentiating that from the usual invite system. Only saves you like 1 click.

Also my point about the art games is while anyone can sell niche art games many publishers don't. You won't see experimental titles like Thirty Flights of Loving come to xbox live or To the Moon hitting PSN.

What about IndieDB/Desura? That's the main place niche games like these get their start.

 

[Bat Vader]

I like Valve and I consider myself a fan of them but I would not consider myself a fanboy. I like them but I don't love them. I think Steam is great and I do enjoy using it but at the same time I like Origin too. I do think that Origin does do some things nicer than Steam even though I like Steam better.

I like how Origin doesn't pause a download when you play a game through Origin. Today I purchased Metro: Last Light off Steam and while it was downloading and installing I decided to play Arkham City. I had to alt+tab out of the game though to start up Metro: Last Light again because any time I play a game on Steam whatever Steam is downloading pauses.
Is there a reason that it does that? I gotta admit it can be annoying at times.

The problems people have had with Origin I have never experienced. Origin has worked flawlessly for me since I started using it. I am not going to hate something that doesn't give me problems.

 

[Austin Howe]

snip

First of all it was a fucking joke!

. . .

And again It was a fuking joke. You know, nothing personal?

It was still absolutely tasteless, which would've been a lot less noticeable if it was funny.

Valve does have subtlety, I'll give them that, but I also obviously wouldn't recommend most AAA games. Since you brought subtlety up, Team Ico titles are also games that I would recommend to non-game people, I can't believe I forgot them. That said, what actually make Bethesda titles good are the subtleties.