Why do people reject evolution?

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tsb247

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As a Christian, I firmly believe that evolution (science) has its place to be taught in school, and creation (religion) has its place to be raught in churches. It's really not all that hard. You don't go to school to be indoctrinated; you go to school to learn reading, writing, and arithmatic (+ science).

As for what I believe... I believe the Bible gives us an oversimplified explanation of where we come from. How would you explain biological science to a person 2000 years ago that didn't even have a concept of cellular biology, let alone genetics? Yeah... I believe in the Bible, but I don't believe it is meant to be taken literally. It says God made man, but it never said how.

That's my two cents anyway...

EDIT: Do I believe in evolution? Yes.
 

BiscuitTrouser

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Balmong7 said:
There are a lot of pages on this. So I am just gonna ask the question and hope. Has there been any evidence of single cell organisms changing into multiple cell organisms? That is the one part of the Evolution vs Creation battle I am waiting for. My mind just cannot grasp that mutations required to switch from single cells to specialized cells without having the organism die, and then having that happen to enough organisms to allow for procreation before the sun burnt itself out. So I honestly want to know, has any evidence of this been found yet?
Absolutely! And its been around for a LONG time. The simple answer is EVERY SINGLE one of your cells contains a VERY basic example of two cells working together. Its your mitochondria.

I dont know how scientifically literate you are so ill explain from the start. Almost all cells which take part in active processes use ATP to do so which is the cells "Energy" if you like stored in the form of ATP. The mitochondria is a little organelle inside your cells that produces this. Youre also aware your cell has DNA right? Are you aware that in fact not ALL of it is in the lovely nucleus DNA centre of the cell. A totally different load of DNA is in your mitochondria. Why are there two sets of DNA in your cells? Both are defined as "human" DNA but carry quite different information.

Its also inherited slightly differently from regular nucleus DNA. So how did this happen? The main theory is that previously the mitochondria was its own distinct cell floating around collecting nutrients to produce its own ATP very efficiently. Eventually a larger cell mutated to engulf the mitochondria. This larger cell gathered the nutrients needed for the mitochondria to produce ATP much more efficiently while at the same time harvesting the ATP the mitochondria produced. A relationship formed that was symbiotic. This occurred to the point where the larger cell learnt to "read" and copy the DNA inside the mitochondrial DNA to produce MORE mitochondria inside itself.

When cells divided from here on out the mitochondrial DNA divided too and went with it. Since this new relationship worked better than all the others the original cells, both the lone mitochondria and the larger cell, died out if they didnt adapt. This happened once. And only once. And from then on the mitochondria was the main energy producer for all life as we know it for a few million years. This is a basic outline of how two cells came together to work in symbiosis.

A study was also done on algi because modern algi forms a multi celled organism from 16-50000 cells large it is the best example of the simplest multicelled organism. The cells differ in function and all play a seperate role. By looking at the different levels of complexity researchers came up with this timeline:

1) ~223 million years ago, a species of single-celled green algae began forming aggregates of cells stuck together by a glue of secreted proteins and sugars (and we can see species which do this today).

2) Also ~200 million years ago, the rate of cell division began to be controlled genetically. Unlike single-celled organisms, which reproduce whenever the surrounding environment is right, the new multicellular algae began controlling exactly how many daughter cells they produce. This is a critical step towards establishing a multi-cellular body-plan with genetically controlled dimensions.

3) Roughly 10 million years later, the cells of some multicellular algae species began to orient their whip-like flagella in the same direction, so that all of the flagella would work together to control the swimming direction of the organism.

4) By ~100 million years ago, some of the algae species had established separate reproductive germ cells, and ever since then, various volvocine algae species have developed more cells with highly specialized functions.

Source: http://www.science20.com/adaptive_complexity/how_singlecell_organisms_evolve_multicellular_ones
 

gideonkain

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TehCookie said:
I think this belongs in Religion and Politics...

Not to mention you already answered it for yourself. There are a lot of crazy people out in the world, for your own sanity I'd avoid talking about things like that to them.
Putting it there would deny it's Scientific basis and lend credence to the idea that people can just "believe things are false" and then they are.
 

Nimzabaat

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Dijkstra said:
Nimzabaat said:
Yet in this very thread, people who challenge science are being accused of stupidity, narrow-mindedness etc.
It could be because, you know, the form of the challenge suggests as much.
I agree! It seems to be the weapon of choice for both sides :)
 

Nimzabaat

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tsb247 said:
As a Christian, I firmly believe that evolution (science) has its place to be taught in school, and creation (religion) has its place to be raught in churches. It's really not all that hard. You don't go to school to be indoctrinated; you go to school to learn reading, writing, and arithmatic (+ science).

As for what I believe... I believe the Bible gives us an oversimplified explanation of where we come from. How would you explain biological science to a person 2000 years ago that didn't even have a concept of cellular biology, let alone genetics? Yeah... I believe in the Bible, but I don't believe it is meant to be taken literally. It says God made man, but it never said how.

That's my two cents anyway...

EDIT: Do I believe in evolution? Yes.
I'm too lazy to look up the meme, but it goes "what if God created the big bang and everybody's wrong?". Or right, depending on how you look at things.
 

Joccaren

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Therarchos said:
But your view is affected by the result you expect.
It is easier to find arguments for a result you want than find them against.
I do not think evolution is necessarily wrong but I'll be damned if I just accept it and ignore that for an instance the theory of evolution didn't get accepted when it did because a bunch of scientist wanted to get God out of the equation! the same bunch who apparently has convinced most of western society that the catholic church believed that the world was flat. When their argument why Columbus shouldn't have money for his trip was that the world was to wide to come across.

My point is be critical. Most of all to your own beliefs.
To an extent. Read your last line, I take that as my moto in life, and whilst I'll accept scientific theories as truth without fully investigating - thanks to the fact that if I hear about them, the generally are strongly supported by experimental data - but I will always prefix things that I have not researched myself with "Apparently". Until I know the reasons behind the scientific theory and understand it to, at the very least, a reasonable degree, I won't come out and say that it is outright fact.
It is also the reason I am an agnostic rather than an atheist.
With that sort of way of looking at things, its not hard to find arguments for or against things, as I have little bias when entering into a debate about a scientific theory, as in the past religious people have done experiments to try and prove that certain aspects of the bible and such are plausible - which I have always found interesting, whether from the aspect of explaining something god has supposedly done through natural phenomenon, or linking natural phenomenon to match something that god is said to have done [There is a slight difference, though its hard to get across on the internet] - and I search for the truth, rather than what some people say is the truth.

Of course, this doesn't guarantee that I've found the truth, merely what is likely closest to it from the information I have on hand, which I will re-evaluate each time new information is uncovered.
 

EclipseoftheDarkSun

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The religious authorities and supporters see it as a battle to fight every step of the way, so as they retreat in the face of evidence and public opinion, they use similar tactics to the cigarette companies - deny every link along the logical chain until it's proven to exhaustion and they've been embarrassed. Cultivate a group of people who'd deny the nose on their face if it protected their unreasoning faith. Oh, plus people don't like being compared to apes and monkeys, despite the critical similarities - they put down these clever creatures, because they consider it demeaning to be compared to them, like they'd resent being compared to *severely* retarded people because that's about how smart our nearest relatives are - no more than a not particularly bright young child and unable to communicate in our language. They really should be looking at the similarities from a dispassionate point of view or a positive one that realises how smart an ape or large monkey is compared to a dog, a pig or similar.
 

Trippy Turtle

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Honestly I am more surprised so many people do believe it. Sure, it has heaps of evidence. How many average people actually understand that evidence? I am interested in the topic and I don't know enough about it to put up a convincing argument for it.
Sure I could go on about fossils, but other then that I can't prove shit.

I do believe in it though.
 

EclipseoftheDarkSun

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DNA similarity speaks louder than fossils of which there are precious few for obvious reasons.. (recycling of materials by other lifeforms, mechanical damage in the soil by plant roots and erosion.
 

Ryan Minns

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Personally I'd think many people would not worship it due to the world having all these 'facts' since the dawn of time. Sure I believe in evolution and to me it makes 'sense' but that sense is due to other people just like those in this thread. Many, MANY things found in the average household today was deemed impossible at one point, not by uneducated fools but by the best and brightest of the age and the ONLY fact I believe will be the only true 'fact' that remains constant is what everyone claims is 100% proven undeniable fact of today will be laughed at by children in schools 100 years from now.
 

axlryder

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From a more "theistic" perspective, I always found the premise behind evolutionary change managing to develop to the point where we're at now without any sort of "celestial" influence hard to swallow. Of course, the very existence of said deity to influence the aforementioned evolutionary process isn't any easier to swallow, and adds all sorts of incalculable complications/baseless assumptions just for the sake of boosting the statistical likelihood of things like abiogenesis and DNA development occurring (which really just comes off as contradictory and wouldn't sit well with Occam's Razor, methinks)

Of course, the actual validity of evolution is really undeniable at this point. As much as I empathize with religious folk, there's no real excuse to not accept whats staring you right in the face. I don't particularly care too greatly for biology, and even I get frustrated when I hear the perpetual misunderstandings spew forth from people's mouths when they talk about evolution. If you're going to contest something, for the love of God at least understand what you're contesting.
 

Spearmaster

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Quaxar said:
Spearmaster said:
Anyone who has done more in depth studying may be able to answer a question for me though. Are apes our only living relative or just our closest? I'm just curious when apes shared a common ancestor with a fish or a dolphin, if the current model is as flawless as some say it is it should work the same all the way back to the origin of all life. Or does it only provide a link a link between man and ape? Which is just a sliver of our evolutionary history.
EVERYTHING is a living relative if you want to get technical. But they certainly are closest in terms of evolutionary nearest. Let me illustrate that with the classic tree of life.
http://www.daviddarling.info/images/primate_family_tree.gif
I like that one. It's colourful.
It's only the primate order but you can more or less go back to bigger and bigger graphs if you want broader ancestry. Keep in mind though that you might find different illustrations in parts because some people tend to put classifications together differently.
I don't think that quite addresses the question I had. I have seen more precise charts on evolution but nothing as accurate as the man/ape model that provides a model for all species just that of a link between man and ape and/or other primates. If the current model of evolution is so accurate then it should be able to be applied to all forms of life that possess DNA. If not then we may only be dealing with 1% or less of the whole picture of evolution on this planet.
It is quite a stretch to base a claim that the current evolutionary model is 100% correct on perhaps less than 1% of of the evidence of evolution. I do appreciate the reply though, I may be digger for a bigger answer than the world can provide at this point.
To address the OP sometimes it seems that most evolutionary theory is used, not by the researchers but mainly by individuals to disprove creationism more than actually provide a clear picture of the origin of life on this planet. I think that may be why so many hardline creationists try to find ways to deny or discount evolutionary theory. Maybe we need to step away from the "see you are wrong" attitude and try "look what we found, what do you think?" for a change. Also I don't see the harm in people believing in creation if it makes them happy.
 

MegaManOfNumbers

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Because evolution is so fucking slow that no human will ever be aware of its process. And we humans like immediate evidence. And the moment humans do evolve into something else, we still won't be able to tell the difference because its SO FUCKING SLOW.
 

Ieyke

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People are stupid, and people don't know what a science means by "theory".

They think "The Theory Of Evolution" is just a guess that they haven't proven, because that's what "theory" typically means in most contexts.
A theory, in the science context, is THE MOST SCIENTIFICALLY PROVABLE FORM OF ALL KNOWLEDGE.
If there is a scientific theory of something, then it is one of the most reliable, scrutinized, and rigorously and empirically proven pieces of information we have regarding anything ever.
 

Doug

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AwesomeWunderbar said:
Doug said:
AwesomeWunderbar said:
disgruntledgamer said:
One of the strongest scientific theories to date, even stronger than the theory of Gravity
Gravity isn't a theory, it's a law.
If you volatile it, the reality police drag you off to...somewhere. We think its hiding behind the Higgs-Boson. Hence, the search for it. If we destroy the prison, gravity need no longer bind us!
But that wouldn't be good! Cause then we'd float out into space and our heads would explode!
You can't make an anti-gravity device without causing a few apocalypses.

tsb247 said:
As a Christian, I firmly believe that evolution (science) has its place to be taught in school, and creation (religion) has its place to be taught in churches. It's really not all that hard. You don't go to school to be indoctrinated; you go to school to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic (+ science).

As for what I believe... I believe the Bible gives us an oversimplified explanation of where we come from. How would you explain biological science to a person 2000 years ago that didn't even have a concept of cellular biology, let alone genetics? Yeah... I believe in the Bible, but I don't believe it is meant to be taken literally. It says God made man, but it never said how.

That's my two cents anyway...

EDIT: Do I believe in evolution? Yes.
Indeedie - I think the problem is that there are some people at the top of the extreme churches that believe the bible 'literally true', i.e. the earth and universe were made in 6 days flat, and they know evolution posses a direct threat to the authority they and their churches have over the 'flock'.

Even the last pope agreed with evolution (sadly the new one has changed that opinion), and the smarted churches try and move with the times (ok, the church of England didn't quite manage to get women bishops but the 2/3 of the voting rounds passed, which indicates to me there only a matter of time). In short, you are a very sane person, and I feel sorry your religious believes associate you with such idiots who demand the bible be taught literally in schools in America.

Evolution is as undeniable as gravity in terms of the evidence; and if the current theory of evolution is 'wrong', it'll be wrong in the same way as Newton's original theory of gravity - inaccurate but still a great approximation for every day use.

Oh well, over here in Brit-land, we seem to not have so much creationist BS. Although apparently it is on the rise :sad-face:
 

Ryotknife

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Doug said:
Evolution is as undeniable as gravity in terms of the evidence; and if the current theory of evolution is 'wrong', it'll be wrong in the same way as Newton's original theory of gravity - inaccurate but still a great approximation for every day use.
You can see the effects of gravity, you can perform experiments to show how gravity works. You can not do this with evolution. In fact for the average person you pretty much have to accept it on blind faith because a book told you so, which is not so much different from doing what the Bible says. In some ways evolution is like theoritical physics. A lot of thought and knowledge behind them, but nothing that is tangible or can be shown. Science is USUALLY tangible, either directly or indirectly.

Now, it does weird me out that there are a lot of people who take the bible literally instead of a book of stories to each us moral lessons and whatnot.
 

Doug

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Ryotknife said:
Doug said:
Evolution is as undeniable as gravity in terms of the evidence; and if the current theory of evolution is 'wrong', it'll be wrong in the same way as Newton's original theory of gravity - inaccurate but still a great approximation for every day use.
You can see the effects of gravity, you can perform experiments to show how gravity works. You can not do this with evolution. In fact for the average person you pretty much have to accept it on blind faith because a book told you so, which is not so much different from doing what the Bible says. In some ways evolution is like theoritical physics. A lot of thought and knowledge behind them, but nothing that is tangible or can be shown. Science is USUALLY tangible, either directly or indirectly.
I can see how evolution works, both in simulations and real life - how do you think virus' and bacteria are becoming resistant to anti-bodies? Evolution in response to a more hostile environment for them. Add to that the fossil record as a bigger-scale record of evolution.

I even did a simulation experiment once with 'genetic algorithms'; of course, they are MASSIVELY simpler than genetic structures stored in the typical creature, and it was 'unnatural selection', but still, it was interesting to see changes as the 'species' evolved, and the throw-backs as old 'genetic information' was switched back on.

I personally can not prove the whole of evolution; the time, effort, and cost required is beyond me. Frankly, I trust a huge group of sciences who actually look at the world and try to describe it than the bible, written thousands of years ago by desert people who simply couldn't have seen the world in the detail we do now, nor with the amount of evidence and knowledge we have at our fingertips.

I'll grant you, gravity is quicker and easier to demonstrate, but equally I can point to actual unresolved issues with it (i.e. does dark-matter actually exist? does dark-energy? why is it so weak? what actually causes it?...), but like good sciences, they are looking into those problems as well.
 

wulf3n

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Zachary Amaranth said:
wulf3n said:
Have we actually seen the change though?
Maybe not with mudskippers, but we've seen changes in laboratory environments, and Darwin saw it within his own lifetime.

You're free to not "fully believe" it all you want, but it's on par with not believing other observable phenomena. Do you not fully believe in fire or gravity?
I think you're confusing natural selection with evolution.

Zachary Amaranth said:
But sometimes the arguments put forward by believers aren't as fool proof as they would like to believe.
You can always find someone to say something stupid about just about anything. That should in no way degrade the notion itself.

However, I cannot make you believe in it any further than I can make the Insane Clown Posse understand how magnets work.
you missed the point. When someone raises an argument for something you believe in, you're less likely to give it the proper critical analysis, so what can seem like irrefutable proof to you, is just more of the same to others.

Besides, since when is not believing in something because you have questions about it a bad thing?

disgruntledgamer said:
wulf3n said:
disgruntledgamer said:
One of the strongest scientific theories to date, even stronger than the theory of Gravity and there are still people out there that reject it.
One is an observable phenomena the other isn't.

You can show all the facts, papers, journals, text books, and fossils you want, but until a significant alteration to an organisms genetic code is observed propagating across it's species, a lot of people just won't buy in.
Oh for the last time we already have! We've observed both Micro and Macro evolution in the laboratory, in fact I've done this personally.

Seriously I feel like a broken record here, I keep saying it and giving examples and links and they keep asking.
I like how simply asking for evidence is enough for people to think I believe in creationism.

It's surpising how much the thesis thumping scientists and the bible thumping creationists have in common.
 

MrFalconfly

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Trippy Turtle said:
Honestly I am more surprised so many people do believe it. Sure, it has heaps of evidence. How many average people actually understand that evidence? I am interested in the topic and I don't know enough about it to put up a convincing argument for it.
Sure I could go on about fossils, but other then that I can't prove shit.

I do believe in it though.
Well you don't have to be biologist to know how evolution works.

Genetics, while being complex when you get into the nitty-gritty, is probably one of the easiest and most understandable pieces of evidence of evolution.

Pathogens are the most prevalent. If they didn't evolve counter-measures to our counter-measures (the immune-system) they wouldn't survive.

Then of cause there's the fact that you don't look 100% like your parents. Nor will your kids look 100% like you. Features are inherited over the generations and mutations can add new features (you may want to check out Lenski's E. Coli Long-term Evolution experiment which showed that E. Coli evolved the ability to to digest citrate).
 

fractal_butterfly

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How to create a hot 10 page thread:

Step 1: Choose a typical troll topic.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit

OT: Despite my first few lines I can't resist to bite the bait. ;-)
I am baffled by the statement, that evolution is as founded or even more founded than gravity. First of all: I don't believe in evolution, I KNOW that there is hard evidence for many evolutionary machanisms. You don't believe in that, that's a scientifically proven fact. Why I still reject parts of the evolution theory? Well, because it is not that well founded, like the OP suggests.
Of course you have mechanisms like modification, which explain a large range of things like making a white moth black, having different people with different skin colors and several subspecies of dogs, all of which originate in Canis Lupus, the common wolf. If you look at the difference between a Chihuahua, a Great Dane and said wolf, this is amazing enough. But lets go a little bit deeper and look at the bigger picture.
Modification is, unlike mutation, a mechanism that recombines existing genetic material. There are mechanisms for modification going on in the process of the merging of sperm and ovum. But the effects you get from this are in the range of going from a dog to a wolf and vica verca. Which means, no genetic material is added and no material is removed. Thats just not how breeding works (Mendel could tell you some things about that).
Going from a smalll woodland creature with stumpy legs and a round body, to a majestic galopping creature of the steppes (Hyracotherium to the modern horse), is a completely different story.
This is one of my favorite examples, so here a little excursion. There are many fossils between Hyracotherium and our modern horse. But even in this well documented example, we still have a load of gaps. Most of the intermediate states of the horse's evolution are still missing. I know, that is no proof against it, but it is also not "a stronger theory than gravity".
As soon as the resulting genetic material differs from the original, we have a mutation. We all know mutations, like sickle cell anemia or cancer. If a mutation happens, anything can result. It could be a slightly thicker skin, he ability to hold your breath a little longer, a sickening disease which shortens you life or even rightout death on arrival. (we are not talking about additional or missing limbs, which are most of the time not mutations but disturbances in the embryonic developoment)
There are several problems with this. First of all, the genetic code, like any codification, allows only a certain number of meaningful combinations. With most of the mutations, the result is either unnoticable, which has no "advantage" in an evolutionary sense, or the resulting creature will be in a worse condition than its ancestors or rightout nonviable. There are several mechanisms in the DNA of any living creature on this planet (I DON'T want to argue, if viruses are living creatures or not, that is a completely different topic), which PREVENT mutations from happening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_repair). They are constantly repairing errors in the DNA and therefore prevent mutations.
Like this, mutations are very unlikely as such. As stated before, "good" (i.e. meaningful mutations, that are not ignored and do not righout kill the resulting creature) are also very unlikely. At this point, there is the argument with the tornado on the junkyard. If you have a tornado running over a junkyard, you will get a big mess. But there is a small possibility, that it will result in something meaningful, like a fully functioning car. So if you have a really big amount of tornados running over the junkyard (we are talking about billions or trillions, given the amount of time earth exists), one of them will eventually produce said car. The problem is, that then comes the next tornado and destroys the damn thing... What I want to say is: yes, there is a possibility for "good" mutations, but there is an even greater possibility for mutations, that destroy the whole thing again. So even given the amount of time we have, the possibility is running against zero to have not only advanced organisms, but also the variety of species we have today.
It is in this case a simple matter of information theory and math. We don't even have to go as far as looking as the chemistry of large molecules, amino acids in particular, to support my point.
I will not start a debate about the spontaneous ermegence of life, since this thread only discusses evolution, but this would also an interesting topic to further develop my thesis.

TL;DR:
What I want to say is, that you have to be careful, what you call a "fact". You have to check everything you are given as a fact today, because there are to many people trying to enforce their own agenda.
I don't want you to run into the curches, I want you to run to your books (or even wikipedia might be a good start). Check your facts, check the people that are giving them to you and start thinking for yourselves. Please please please, for the sake of humanity...