Why do people scream "Feminist Agenda" when there is a female lead?

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Zhukov

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Zontar said:
So with that being the reality of how we, the people (not just ivory tower elites who make up a tiny fraction of the population) want, enjoy and consume our media, the only wonder there is about it is how anyone can be surprised.

I'll happily admit that my post wasn't exactly substantive, but "my perception is the reality" is not exactly a convincing counter argument.

I have to leave in about 2 minutes, but if you really want to do this dance I can flesh out my points later on.

And given how when a male character is treated terrible no one cares...
This at least isn't total bullshit. Male disposability is indeed a thing in fiction and, to a lesser degree, in reality.
 

Redryhno

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Because for all the belly-aching about another bland male toughguy lead, there's a helluva lot of bland female leads the last few years that have all the same problems in that they're indistinguishable from one another. Jessica Jones is not all that interesting character in the series, which was a big let down because pretty much every other character and person in the show I looked forward to seeing MORE than the titular character for how fucking bland she was(sorta the same problem as Daredevil had, it didn't want to commit to being a part of a comic book universe unless it was convenient, though at least Murdock wasn't boring when he was on-screen and not relying on everyone else to carry his ass and the fighting didn't look like he would rather be doing literally anything else).

Think of most female leads that have been popping up the last few years that have been raved about, they're largely just the same basic character, they have trauma in their background that happened relatively recently, they work past it, the end. And for some people, they see it because they saw the male leads and how similar they could be, but there's people giving points for swapping a character's genitals about and turning a pretty minor, but somewhat interesting character into just another antagonist in a rape-revenge story. Because that's what so much of it all boils down to. Many female leads are just rape-revenge fantasies(whether they be literal or metaphor). Jessica Jones, Maleficient, even Frozen to a point was raved about because Anna was going to be used for her title to get a guy in power and it was averted.

And people don't really like that when they're told that male leads are boring and they can't be told apart because they're all "Steve" when the thing that replaces it is just the same thing with a set of tits and bodily betrayal baggage.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Zontar said:
Zhukov said:
Because male leads are the default in male-targeted or general audience products

Female leads are required to justify their abhorrent presence.
Actually it's a result of the Toyota model being applied to entertainment.

This is a result of the fact that for whatever reason, men AND women tend to identify more with men filling specific roles and archetypes within a story, and are more willing to accept men filling said specific roles or archetypes. And given how when a male character is treated terrible no one cares, and with the fact male characters have a much wider range and variety of actions and consequences they can have without people screaming like banshees about it (of ALL political leanings) there's just more freedom there for writers there.

So with that being the reality of how we, the people (not just ivory tower elites who make up a tiny fraction of the population) want, enjoy and consume our media, the only wonder there is about it is how anyone can be surprised.

OT: OP, the reason is because everything is political in that regards, and the reason for that is because modern Western Feminism has taken the radical stance, disconnected from reality, that everything is sexist, everything is problematic, and it's the job of feminists to point it all out. When you're dealing with a group willing to make anything and everything political, and are willing to lie about it to get things done (the Mad Max nontraversy being a good example of this) it's inevitable that a reactionary stance will be taken by some in response. Radicalism begets radicalism, which is why Western Feminism is the most powerful force working against equality in the First World, but that's a discussion for another thread down in the basement.
Really the reason why both men and women, along with boys and girls, tend to identify more with male lead protagonists and antagonists is because femininity and womanhood are seen as less capable on a societal level. You do make a good point, that people of all political leanings will scream bloody murder when a woman does any action, or suffers any consequences that are considered out societal norms for women. This is partially because of the limited way in which women are viewed and that femininity and womanhood are seen as lesser. A lot of people, regardless of their political leanings, or identification as feminists for that matter, get pretty uppity when women show any agency in fiction. This is why it's a good thing that women are getting more opportunities to play leads as both heroines and villains, because when it's done good it more often is getting praise, when it's done poorly it's more getting called out for being poorly done. Instead of the bad being defended as perfect because sexism.

You're really off base on the idea of "modern Western Feminism", because nowhere is feminism a collective of people who hate men and masculinity. Modern Western Feminism hasn't changed as much in the last century as most anti-feminists insist, core feminist philosophy is still essentially the same as it's always been. There are serious issues in western and most eastern society that prevent men from showing any trait, or emotion that can be even remotely perceived as feminine. This is because femininity, womanhood, and anything female is instantly classified as lesser and weaker by most of the world socially. Feminists are only radical because they want to do away with the idea of gendering everything, to break down the idea of stereotyping by gender, and to remove limitations on expression based on gender and biological sex. That is seen as a radical idea, but only because it challenges power structures that are traditionally dominated by men, men who desperately want to protect that gender exclusivity to preserve their own power.

Radical feminists are not strictly speaking radical, or feminist. They toss most feminist philosophy out the window in favor of biological essentialism, in an attempt to destroy the concept of "gender", for the sake of "equality". In reality what they do is counter productive to feminism, because their ideal sets gender rules and stereotypes in stone based biology. That's not radical, because it supports a patriarchal society geared to make femininity the lesser and masculinity the superior. This excludes men from feminine roles and expression, at the same time it excludes women from masculine roles and expression, removing any agency in gender period. Most "radical feminists" also tend to be sex negative, saying things like all heterosexual penetrative sex is rape, because women cannot consent, backing up the idea that female automatically means a lesser person. The reason being is that sex between a man and a woman, as a concept promoted by "patriarchal" types, cannot happen with out some sort of emotional, or financial coercion. Another patriarchal idea "radical feminists" support is trans exclusion and erasure, by making the genders exclusive to biology and thus separate on a fundamental level, removing all personal agency in relation to gender. "Radical feminists" also support the "patriarchy" by being excluding to sex workers, because sex workers, specifically female sex workers, aren't supposed to have the agency to consent. Along with that female sex workers violate very male ideals of purity and "acceptable" norms of female sexual expression. With all of that in mind, self proclaimed "radical feminists" are a very small minority, a sexist minority, and a minority that is generally ignored and categorized the same as the "manosphere", anti-feminists, and open sexists, by feminists and people generally interested in gender equality.

Feminists who follow actual feminist theory are actually very concerned with gender equality, with removing the walls of gender identity, allowing people to express themselves freely, naturally as feminine, or masculine they are, regardless of their biological sex. Feminism has made great strides in putting women on a more equal footing with men in many facets of society, but not all, and sexism is still a big issue. Another thing feminism has done and is doing, is normalizing masculine expression amongst women. At the same time feminism is trying, unsuccessfully to my mind, to normalize and detoxify feminine expression from men.

Which highlights a problem with feminism, that many take issue with as well, and is why I don't identify as a feminist. Feminism focuses almost entirely on the point of view as seen from the feminine perspective. While a patriarchal society is oppressive to both men and women, making unfair assumptions and demands of both. Still the assumption is that the problems faced by both men and women are entirely societal, when likely the problems are both nature(biological) and nurture(societal). This means you can't reasonably address problems men have in both femininity and masculinity, at least not the same way you address those same issues with women. A larger problem with feminism is that it's largely binary, thus it tends to let people who identify outside the binary fall through the cracks.

Still there is one problem with feminism that limits it's abilities to help, which is also the biggest problem feminism has. A large number of men dismiss feminism and feminist theory out of hand, without reading any feminist literature, or even listening to feminists with anything on their minds other than pure dismissive derision. That issue can be fixed by men, especially those in power, being able to take women and "femmefolk"* seriously, which they don't. The only way these societal issues can be addresses is equally by both genders and the gender nonconforming. At least that's my opinion.

That's also besides the fact that feminism in general tends to have issues with internationality, which I have touched on here.

*"Femmefolk" is a catchall term for everyone who expresses and identifies as feminine including women(both cis and trans), men(both cis and trans), gender nonconforming, and regardless of sexuality(hetero, gay, ace, etc...). Also important to note that identify feminine, or masculine, doesn't directly reflect one's gender identity as a man, woman, neither, or etc... Meaning men can identify feminine and still be men, while women can identify masculine and still be women, while those who identify as both are neither can still identify primarily feminine, or masculine, without it directly reflecting their gender identity. That's also regardless of weather or not the person is a masculine trans woman, feminine trans man, masculine cis woman, or feminine cis men, and etc... Confusing I know, but people are weird and identify in weird ways and express themselves in weird ways.

On a final note, the reason that feminism should does and should control a majority of the narrative is because of societal privilege. Men have a disproportionately high number of social advantages compared to women. Just for example: Women have to justify professional technical expertise more, women are more likely to be interrupted and spoken over in an office setting, and hell women are more likely to be experience casual sexual harassment more than men in public spaces.

These three Robot-hugs comics sum this up far better than I can. Weather it's in the tecnical [http://www.robot-hugs.com/technigal/], or professional workplace [http://www.robot-hugs.com/workplace/] settings, to just typical levels of harassment [http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/] that women face. I know I've posted a lot of these lately, but that webcomic has done a good job of opening my eyes to things more.

Anyways I hope that helps people understand feminism isn't some fascist conspiracy to destroy men, as it's often portrayed as.
 

Fox12

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jayzz911 said:
Fox12 said:
Because they keep shoehorning women into everything. Have you noticed that? There was a woman in Star Wars. I turned on the tv last night, and do you know what I saw? A woman. She wasn't even naked. I mean, was there even a reason they had a woman in that show, or did they just put women in it to be politically correct? The PC culture in this nation has gotten out of hand.

Creators should have the freedom to tell any kind of story they want. Unless they break from the norm by having women and minorities. In that case they aren't allowing the story to progress naturally, they're just pandering to the PC crowd.
You realise that goes both ways right?
Creators should have the freedom to tell any kind of story they want. Unless they have want to have a negative representation of a woman or minority. In that case they are mysoginist cisgendered shitlords (really being the normal of gender is an insult now? and before i get flamed the hell out of for calling cisgendered normal, the thing that is the norm in any area is normal and we all know that the there are far more cisgendered than any other kind of people as far as gender goes.) and nobody should play your game or they are also mysoginist shitlords.
Sure, but presumably the character isn't bad because they're a woman or minority. If a character is a woman or minority and they're bad people, that's fine. Not only is that fine, it's relatively common in fiction. And it's not a controversy. If you're characters are bad because they're a woman, a man, or a minority, then that's sexist or racist. You can make something that's racist or sexist, of course, but you're not immune from criticism, and you're not entitled to funding for your project.
 

Erttheking

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Because politely disagreeing with someone is a dying art. You either totally agree with someone or hate everything they stand for. The middle ground of reasonableness is getting smaller every day.
 

runic knight

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Probably because it most often has less to do with them being a female character and more to do with how the character it pushed or sold on the fact that their gender matters in the first place? I mean, perhaps it is simple misunderstanding why the complaint is there and how it isn't the trait itself in the character, but the attitudes other put forth in response to the trait?

Maybe I am not visiting the right places online, but I have never actually seen the whole "I am mad this character is female because they are female" thing actually occur in the wild. It is always called up like some boogieman strawman though to mock or criticize people, usually with a wide brush so as to get those who call shenanigans about ideological or moral pushes for change or special attention.

Instead, I always see "I don't like that these people want to change this character I have been a fan of for years to another gender because of their ideological beliefs" or "Why do people keep promoting the character's gender when talking about it, why can't they separate the quality overall from that trait?" or "Why do people point to the lack of this gender like it is inherently bad." Sometime I even see "Wait, that character was a female? Why? That doesn't make sense".

Never actually seen a "I don't like the character being this gender because it is a woman". The protests always seem to come from places of more rational complaint rather than the fairly over the top way it is presented here.

Generally the calls of feminism only occur when there is some spotlight on the character's gender being relevant in the first place with regard to wider culture. When you have people making a deal of the gender like it is somehow relevant, especially if choice in the gender being female is being promoted as something morally good, you tend to get people calling that out as pushing an ideology. Be it an appeal to cosmic balance like the total number of protagonist's who share one trait or another is a scale to be set, or simply an argument that using a female character makes something inherently better, if the gender of the character gets promoted as a point of important when it doesn't actually matter, it will get people calling that attitude out. Myself, I think trying to point to a character's gender like it is some freakshow trait is pretty sexist to boot, but that is neither here nor there.

Honestly, the game Undertale nailed how to do that stuff right. Not just a female protagonist, but homosexual relationships, issues of racism and so on. It did it perfectly, by not making a spectacle about how it was doing it and instead just making a quality experience in a game. Not yet seen anyone upset the protagonist was a girl either, or the relationships within it. By not treating it like a freak show to market on, a game where you talk with a spaghetti making skeleton was more mature on those topics than a lot of media I have seen making a big stink about what they were doing.

Pretty sure there is some saying about those who actually do stuff and those who just say they do stuff for the attention that brings them, can't recall at the moment.
 

briankoontz

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The method is scorched-earth ideological warfare, popularized in tone by Rush Limbaugh with his "I'm just the little guy standing up to the massive progressive powers destroying America". His term for feminists is "feminazis".

Right-wing talk show hosts mimic right-wing politicians in both their style and purpose of rhetoric. The goal is exactly the same - to maximize the degree of power of their ideology, no matter what the cost.
 

chocolate pickles

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Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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chocolate pickles said:
Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
Aside from the veracity of the idea, it seems like a total non sequitur in their logic. "I'm fed up therefore any female lead is part of a feminist agenda!"?
 

halisme

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undeadsuitor said:
Also, ironically, straight white males have trouble projecting themselves onto characters who don't look like them, while asking everyone not like them to project onto a straight white male.
As a straight white male I'd like to make a slight correction. Some have trouble projecting but the majority (or at least, that I've met) are with playing characters that don't look like us. Some prefer it as either a form of escapism or to get a different outlook. It's the publishers that operate on the logic you stated.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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chocolate pickles said:
Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
You know, I keep hearing about this mysterious tumblr Illuminati that apparently has conspiracy theory level power, how they poison ideologically pure places like The Escapist. I hear stuff like that and I can't help but think it's a nothing but a strawman. You see the thing is I see a few people immediately default to complaining about patriarchal society, that's the thing, it's a few people, a loud minority, that doesn't actually have any real impact on the entertainment industry.

The thing I seem to see a lot of is that the people who shout "Feminist Agenda!" are the same kind of minority, just on the other side of the supposed "issue".

This applies to not only some here on The Escapist and tumblr, but it also applies to lots of social media sites too, like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.

Now I see a major difference between the two groups: The "feminist" side a is group doesn't really understand feminist philosophy, but still uses it to voice their dissatisfaction. The tend not to do any harm, when they do do harm they more often than not do it to themselves rather than any societal structure. Also large entertainment companies will scapegoat them for an internal decision not to release things in certain markets, like a video game company recently did... Justifying not releasing an installment in a sub-series in the west, because of feminist outrage, instead of the real issue which was consistently declining sales of the sub-series, which was making bringing the games over and getting them certified unprofitable.

The "anti-feminist" side is probably even worse for several reasons. One it's a group that is capable of shutting up those they disagree with, usually via methods of doxxing, harassment, combined with rape and death threats. It's also a group with a large sector that indulges in horrific amounts of shaming people for their body weight and sexual habits, the latter usually within acceptable norms anyways. All of this happens because some women and men identify as feminist and have issues with society, a small section of those who disagree with the feminists decide to engage in absolutely horrible and illegal tactics of threats and stalking.

To put it in TL:DR summary: The feminists are trying to do their best to invoke positive change, some of them might be a bit misguided, but their hearts are generally in the right place. The "anti-feminists", specifically a loud hateful minority of "anti-feminists", feel threatened that people want social change and equality, so they engage in dirty underhanded and illegal tactics to shut their opposition up.
 

Luminous_Umbra

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runic knight said:
Probably because it most often has less to do with them being a female character and more to do with how the character it pushed or sold on the fact that their gender matters in the first place? I mean, perhaps it is simple misunderstanding why the complaint is there and how it isn't the trait itself in the character, but the attitudes other put forth in response to the trait?

Maybe I am not visiting the right places online, but I have never actually seen the whole "I am mad this character is female because they are female" thing actually occur in the wild. It is always called up like some boogieman strawman though to mock or criticize people, usually with a wide brush so as to get those who call shenanigans about ideological or moral pushes for change or special attention.

Instead, I always see "I don't like that these people want to change this character I have been a fan of for years to another gender because of their ideological beliefs" or "Why do people keep promoting the character's gender when talking about it, why can't they separate the quality overall from that trait?" or "Why do people point to the lack of this gender like it is inherently bad." Sometime I even see "Wait, that character was a female? Why? That doesn't make sense".

Never actually seen a "I don't like the character being this gender because it is a woman". The protests always seem to come from places of more rational complaint rather than the fairly over the top way it is presented here.

Generally the calls of feminism only occur when there is some spotlight on the character's gender being relevant in the first place with regard to wider culture. When you have people making a deal of the gender like it is somehow relevant, especially if choice in the gender being female is being promoted as something morally good, you tend to get people calling that out as pushing an ideology. Be it an appeal to cosmic balance like the total number of protagonist's who share one trait or another is a scale to be set, or simply an argument that using a female character makes something inherently better, if the gender of the character gets promoted as a point of important when it doesn't actually matter, it will get people calling that attitude out. Myself, I think trying to point to a character's gender like it is some freakshow trait is pretty sexist to boot, but that is neither here nor there.

Honestly, the game Undertale nailed how to do that stuff right. Not just a female protagonist, but homosexual relationships, issues of racism and so on. It did it perfectly, by not making a spectacle about how it was doing it and instead just making a quality experience in a game. Not yet seen anyone upset the protagonist was a girl either, or the relationships within it. By not treating it like a freak show to market on, a game where you talk with a spaghetti making skeleton was more mature on those topics than a lot of media I have seen making a big stink about what they were doing.

Pretty sure there is some saying about those who actually do stuff and those who just say they do stuff for the attention that brings them, can't recall at the moment.
It mostly seems to be on Twitter and the like. Which, I'll be honest, I trust tentatively, with how easy it is to make a throw-away account to stir up trouble. I've all too frequently seen fake accounts on all "sides", trying to project bad images of those sides and it's honestly just a massive pain to deal with.

I'll be honest, I'm really not a fan of the trend either. If your work, be it video game, movie, or whatever, is any good, you shouldn't have to rely on advertising the gender, ethnicity, etc. of your characters. Because doing so makes it clear you have nothing better to present.

Also, correction on Undertale, the protag has been stated to be of ambiguous gender and sex for the purposes of individual interpretation. So, you thinking they are female isn't wrong, but it's also not "canon" or whatever you want to call it.
 

IceForce

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chocolate pickles said:
Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
Are you visiting the same Escapist I visit? Because I don't see any of that here, at all.

And as someone else pointed out, what you've posted here does a rather poor job of answering the question in the thread title.
"People scream 'Feminist Agenda' because they're fed up of other people screaming 'Patriarchy'" ? You know how bad that sounds as an explanation, right?
 

IceForce

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sheppie said:
People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists.
Note there that you said "appear to be". You're taking the worst cherry-picked example of something you can find, and tarring everyone else under the same label with the same brush.

Guilt-by-association at its finest.
 

Cowabungaa

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People are uncomfortable with change. The same happened (happens?) with the 'gay agenda.' This has nothing to do with feminist extremists either.
 

IceForce

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WinterWyvern said:
You will find out that pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas are a tiny minority among all people.

The problem is that they are loud.

And the second problem is that when someone says something normal, we don't pay excessive attention to it... but when someone says something outrageous, we remember it a lot. Which is why crazy feminazis and such seem to be a lot of people when they aren't.
Yep, hit the nail on the head there.

Hell, when I turn on my TV to see what the Republicans are up to, what do I see? Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Donald Trump.

Given some of the logic posted in this thread so far, I figure I'd be quite within my rights to claim that ALL Republicans are exactly like Donald Trump, purely because that's all I ever see when I turn on my TV.

As I said in another thread, guilt-by-association either applies everywhere, or it applies nowhere.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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sheppie said:
WinterWyvern said:
That's like saying that loving animals means you are crazy or evil, because PETA.
Animal rights extremists are a tiny minority among all people who love animals.

People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists.

It's a debate that not really ours to wage, is it? Untill sensible people emerge within feminism as an ideology and change its course, this is what it is. That change can only be made internally, not externally. We can only respond to these internal changes after and when they happen.
The thing is you said: "People with weird pro-censorship, anti-gamers, pro-sexism and pro-discrimination ideas appear to be a vast majority among SJWs/feminists." Emphasis mine. What you're doing here is actually using a hypocrisy, because the type of people you're using to tar all of feminism with is a very small minority of feminists. To use your own analogy, the "pro-censorship, anti-gamer, pro-sexism, and pro-discrimination"[footnote]These people are generally called radical feminists, or "radfems", which includes Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists and Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminists(TERFs and SWERFs). Which if we're being completely honest aren't actually feminists, nor are they radical in ideology.[/footnote] types are to feminism what animal rights extremists are to animal lovers.

Now then, saying no sensible people have emerged within feminism? That's rather absurd on the face of it, as most feminists are and have been very sensible people, mostly women, who want gender equality. That particular argument is one I only hear from people who have either never met an actual feminist(as in not a "radfem"), or who flat refuse to even listen to the most basic feminist ideas. It's not like good feminist sources and literature are hard to find either, so it's often a case of people deciding consciously not to take feminism seriously. Which is understandable, but on the same token, misrepresentation based on a tiny toxic minority is also never totally excusable.
 

Gengisgame

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
chocolate pickles said:
Probably because they're fed up of every tumblr and Escapist user screaming 'Patriarchy!' at shit that's not actually offensive to women.
You know, I keep hearing about this mysterious tumblr Illuminati that apparently has conspiracy theory level power, how they poison ideologically pure places like The Escapist. I hear stuff like that and I can't help but think it's a nothing but a strawman. You see the thing is I see a few people immediately default to complaining about patriarchal society, that's the thing, it's a few people, a loud minority, that doesn't actually have any real impact on the entertainment industry.

The thing I seem to see a lot of is that the people who shout "Feminist Agenda!" are the same kind of minority, just on the other side of the supposed "issue".

This applies to not only some here on The Escapist and tumblr, but it also applies to lots of social media sites too, like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit.

Now I see a major difference between the two groups: The "feminist" side a is group doesn't really understand feminist philosophy, but still uses it to voice their dissatisfaction. The tend not to do any harm, when they do do harm they more often than not do it to themselves rather than any societal structure. Also large entertainment companies will scapegoat them for an internal decision not to release things in certain markets, like a video game company recently did... Justifying not releasing an installment in a sub-series in the west, because of feminist outrage, instead of the real issue which was consistently declining sales of the sub-series, which was making bringing the games over and getting them certified unprofitable.

The "anti-feminist" side is probably even worse for several reasons. One it's a group that is capable of shutting up those they disagree with, usually via methods of doxxing, harassment, combined with rape and death threats. It's also a group with a large sector that indulges in horrific amounts of shaming people for their body weight and sexual habits, the latter usually within acceptable norms anyways. All of this happens because some women and men identify as feminist and have issues with society, a small section of those who disagree with the feminists decide to engage in absolutely horrible and illegal tactics of threats and stalking.

To put it in TL:DR summary: The feminists are trying to do their best to invoke positive change, some of them might be a bit misguided, but their hearts are generally in the right place. The "anti-feminists", specifically a loud hateful minority of "anti-feminists", feel threatened that people want social change and equality, so they engage in dirty underhanded and illegal tactics to shut their opposition up.
Your right the screaming feminist is a strawman but it's a strawman used to deflect criticism, saying you don't believe in killallmen does not mean that your other views will not be torn apart when you try to force them on others.

You say feminists are trying to invoke a positive change but they aren't, feminism has now become a group that exists for the benefit of feminism, if feminism actually cared about societal change for the better then it would be more worried about how hostile it has become to men, probably it's most important but ignored issue within western society.

If you had tried to stay on point and not show extreme bias you wouldn't have invoked your own strawman of the evil anti-feminists who are so much worse than the noble feminists just trying to do good, feminists have done everything you've listed but with the idea that they are morally right in doing so but all that is irrelevant to the point, for now assume that we are just talking about averages members again and try not to deflect criticism with this worn out point.

The TC opens up an attack on anyone who expressed the idea of a feminist agenda in female protagonists, that's because there is, there is not a single mainstream game with a female protagonist being made that doesn't have major publications harping on about how great it that the character is female. If this was just a matter of personnel taste fine, but it isn't, it's female good/ male bad mentality and anyone who doesn't understand how that would rub guys the wrong way shouldn't be talking about social issues if you can't empathize on such a basic level.
 

Kingjackl

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While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

Lolita Style, The Best Style!
Jan 12, 2010
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Gengisgame said:
Your right the screaming feminist is a strawman but it's a strawman used to deflect criticism, saying you don't believe in killallmen does not mean that your other views will not be torn apart when you try to force them on others.
Never said I'm a feminist, nor that I totally support all of their views and ideas. In fact because I'm trans and very feminine I get attacked all the time for being "stereotypical". Now then things like "killallmen" and "diecisscum" aren't about actual hostility, it's about venting and comical hyperbole. Are there people that think that all men, or/and cisgneder folk should be rounded up, put in concentration camps, and possibly systematically murdered? Yes, but then again there are rabid crazies in every ideology. When it comes to groups like trans folk and feminists, who actually have limited social power, along with the fact that most of whom are reasonable individuals... Well such memes are nothing more than expressions of frustration, because such groups aren't really trying eliminate others.

That's besides the fact that as trans person I get to see first hand the issues feminism has with internationality and how it damages the feminist cause.

Gengisgame said:
You say feminists are trying to invoke a positive change but they aren't, feminism has now become a group that exists for the benefit of feminism, if feminism actually cared about societal change for the better then it would be more worried about how hostile it has become to men, probably it's most important but ignored issue within western society.
Feminists are effecting positive change, in fact feminist organizations are active all over the world, doing things like helping both boys and girls in developing nations with health campaigns. Like providing education and sanitary supplies. Source: We Hunted the Mammoth, because it has lots of external references that back the point up. [http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/12/15/sorry-mens-rights-activists-feminists-actually-do-care-about-girls-in-africa/]

The whole feminism has become hostile to men argument has never made any bloody sense, because the history of feminism is one of receiving hostility from men, backed up with false claims of exclusionary behavior. Now some feminist groups are hostile to men, but then some are hostile to trans folk, others to people of color, and so on. I'm not going to deny that feminism has a massive internationality issue, one that causes lots of internal feuding too; however, mainstream feminism isn't hostile to men, it's in fact very inclusive. Most of the time.

Gengisgame said:
If you had tried to stay on point and not show extreme bias you wouldn't have invoked your own strawman of the evil anti-feminists who are so much worse than the noble feminists just trying to do good, feminists have done everything you've listed but with the idea that they are morally right in doing so but all that is irrelevant to the point, for now assume that we are just talking about averages members again and try not to deflect criticism with this worn out point.
Except I didn't call "anti-feminists" evil, I even went so far as to clarify that it's a loud minority of "anti-feminists" who are the ones causing issues. I also didn't hold feminism up as this infallible noble cause either. In fact I mentioned and called out the fact that just like with "anti-feminists", there is a loud minority of feminists who do the exact same thing. The way you've misrepresented me thus far is making a strawman of my statements.

That said I've never seen any rabid type of "anti-feminist", like Dean Esmay, Roosh V, or Paul Elam chased from their homes by a concentrated feminist campaign of doxxing, harassment, stalking, and threats of death and rape. Yet that very thing has happened to a staggering number of feminists, including very reasonable ones. So no calling out the minority of "anti-feminists" who do terrible illegal things to others is not a strawman.

Gengisgame said:
The TC opens up an attack on anyone who expressed the idea of a feminist agenda in female protagonists, that's because there is, there is not a single mainstream game with a female protagonist being made that doesn't have major publications harping on about how great it that the character is female. If this was just a matter of personnel taste fine, but it isn't, it's female good/ male bad mentality and anyone who doesn't understand how that would rub guys the wrong way shouldn't be talking about social issues if you can't empathize on such a basic level.
That is called hype, there are a lot of people who get excited about female leads in video games and movies, because it's fairly uncommon in comparison to male leads.

Now the female good/male bad mentality isn't a majority opinion amongst feminists, it's a fringe minority, mostly composed of people who are actively working against feminist philosophy from within. Most feminists have no problem with men, they have problems with society being geared to advantage men and disadvantage women.

So thus far this has been a series of misrepresenting my stance, which is fairly neutral, as a pro-feminist gush so it can easily be knocked down. That is the very definition of a strawman.