I already said that controllers are better for platformers and fighting games at the end of the reply mate. And that's all they are better at, unless you include sports games. Every other genre it's a pure fact that you can do much more with a m/kb. Whether the person cares if they can or not is up to them. For me, I'm going with what gives me the most advantage for the win.Mir Teiwaz said:
Why do people seem to think Gamepads are better than KB+M?
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I don't know, I just prefer a controller. Started with console gaming when I was 5, now I'm 19, and I'm still a big console gamer, little to none PC gaming really. I admit, KB+M is much better for shooters once you get used to it, and we won't talk about any real-time strategy games in terms of whether a controller or KB+M is better, but for the most part, I just prefer a controller.
It can probably be boiled down to simply whatever feels more comfortable. Doesn't really matter which one's "better", it's all about what you feel comfortable playing with.
It can probably be boiled down to simply whatever feels more comfortable. Doesn't really matter which one's "better", it's all about what you feel comfortable playing with.
Having had rampant RSI issues for a couple of years, if there's a choice for a PC game, I usually choose a gamepad these days for comfort, even though I grew up playing on the computer. All of your shoulder muscles having to move your mouse around, and also having to hover above the keyboard and navigate all around that square area is something I rarely bother with anymore - a controller just forms to your hand (at least the 360 controller does) and is easier to passively use, just because you don't have to keep that spatial awareness of where your keyboard and mouse are in the back of your mind. You use your fingers for it, as oppose to your arms. Gamepads are definitely more "sit back and play" while k+m is "sit up and play."
I'd wager most people who want a comfortable play session who are comfortable already with a gamepad will use a gamepad. There is a significant breaking in period for PC gamers - it took me 2-3 years for gamepads to become completely second nature.
But as others have said, usually none of this matters because the genre dictates the input style. No one uses a keyboard for a fighting game, or a controller for Starcraft. It's not a coincidence that I didn't start to really like racing games until I built up controller proficiency through easier games. Thank you, Assassin's Creed series.
Edited because you all are right, this thread doesn't need another needless use of "objectively."
I'd wager most people who want a comfortable play session who are comfortable already with a gamepad will use a gamepad. There is a significant breaking in period for PC gamers - it took me 2-3 years for gamepads to become completely second nature.
But as others have said, usually none of this matters because the genre dictates the input style. No one uses a keyboard for a fighting game, or a controller for Starcraft. It's not a coincidence that I didn't start to really like racing games until I built up controller proficiency through easier games. Thank you, Assassin's Creed series.
Edited because you all are right, this thread doesn't need another needless use of "objectively."
So many people in this thread have no idea what "objectively" means.ngl42398 said:
It's very likely someone can put time and effort into learning both control schemes and end up having better performance on a controller.
My ideal controller is a steering wheel with a trackball in the middle.Cerebrawl said:Mouse + flightstick, best of both worlds.SmallHatLogan said:
im a console gamer and pc gamer, there are games that are designed with gamepad in mind and others with keyboard and mouse, its easier to become a decent player with kb+m if you are playing an fps, rpg, mmo, strategy etc and easier with gamepad for platform, action, racing, fighting games. i prefer both kb+m and gamepad cause in the end it really depends on the genre im goin to play.
hah hah-what? I'm all for opinions and whatnot but that was...the complete opposite of what KB+M is good for. If camera and turning in an FPS is "a nightmare" then you clearly just can't use it. Reticle targeting is a lot easier with a mouse, because it's essentially the same as selecting an icon on a desktop. You can do that right? I mean you navigated to this forum. On consoles you have to cycle through enemies, not useful in a raid situation.ryessknight said:
The ENTIRE RTS, 4X and MOBA genres is better played with KB+M. That is not a matter up for debate, there is no way in hell you'd ever reach the capabilites of pro starcraft players with a pad. Ever. Even the matter of KB+M for shooters isn't, not really. I mean you may /prefer/ using a pad, which is fine, but the amount of fine and precise movement you get with a mouse over a stick isn't something debatable.
Especially not when the person making the argument can't use the thing he's making an argument against. Just to make it clear, almost all shooters on consoles have a slight to massive (Halo 3 I'm looking at you) degree of auto aim. If the pad was so SUPERIOR, why does it need crutches, exactly? If nothing else, explain that one.
That would be like me attempting to repair a car engine (my knowledge on which is tagental at best, by which I mean, I drive a car and I am aware the engine is there), with all the best tools for the job, failing, then telling all the experienced mechanics in the room that they're wrong, these tools are shit and they should shutup if they attempt to pick holes in my uninformed opinion. Nevermind the fact that I've clearly got no experience, couldn't fix that car with the best tools in the world and have next to no knowledge on the subject. No it's clearly the tools.
Normally this wouldn't bother me, but your post was so incredibly arrogant and ill informed that I felt to correct you, so that you can be better informed.
Just a wee point, for yourself and the guys throwing the word "objective" around, for me the superior control is the one i'm going to have the most fun using. For something like a MOBA where competitiveness is part of the fun of the game, then i'd say yeah, KB + M. For things like shooters, sometimes the pad is superior when i'm just playing to relax for completely subjective things such as comfort, which completely override for me whether or not i'm using auto aim or whether or not i'm netting headshots every round. When i was playing the new xcom, there were times i would hook it up to my tv and just sit back with a controller, and while the movement and action selections were less precise at those times the gamepad was still "superior".elvor0 said:
As has often been said in other topics, the idea of one thing being objectively better than another in gaming just never exists. Better will always be the more enjoyable option, and that is always subject to taste, in my opinion. That's the beauty of gaming.
Oh quite, do what you prefer and enjoy, I myself liked to plug in my pad and play XCOM with it, it is more comfortable by far. But point was that the mouse is more accurate. The dude I was quoting seemed adamant that KB+M is in no way better for any situation. The one offers superior /control/ is the one that is more accurate and thus offers better control. Whether that be aiming for shooters, or precise movement offered by sticks for platformers.andago said:
Far be it from me to tell you what you find enjoyable, because that's totally subjective, but on the subject of objectivity, the mouse+KB offers superior control for MOBAs, 4X, RTS, WoW-style MMOs (in most cases, *cough* DC "carpel tunnel" Universe Online *cough*) and of course shooters. But of course, the pad is far better for games like Dark Souls/Hack n Slashers, Racing Games, Fighting Games and Platformers.
Sorry, I do realise that guy you were quoting does seem severely biased, if not just bizarrely contradicting general wisdom about control methods. Good idea about saying something is superior in terms of the control it allows, instead of just 'superior', I totally agree with you on these points.elvor0 said:
What other measure would there be for if something is better than "is it better at what it is supposed to do"? I may prefer to comb my hair with a fork but that would have no impact on whether or not the comb or the fork is better for the task.andago said:
Well, nobody has managed that. It's been proven time and time again, too (several videos in this thread show it too). And it is actually quite obvious that cannot be the case as a controller does not allow as fine 2D motion input as a mouse - what is what a mouse is deigned for. So yes, actually one could indeed call it objective that a mouse is better for aiming.Shadowstar38 said:
Sorry if I didn't explain it well before. For me the difference is that if I use a comb it's because I want my hair styled, so whatever tool styles it the best, is the best one to use to use. If I play computer games it's to have fun, so whichever tool lets me enjoy the game the most is the best. Here, what it's "supposed to do" is allow me to have fun playing a game, NOT to necessarily give me the most precise input method.DoPo said:
Like I said, for some people enjoyment comes from being the best at the game, and in highly competitive games there's going to be more overlap between the most enjoyable input method and the one that gives the most precise control. Sometimes for me though even when playing solo, even playing an FPS, I just want to sit back and enjoy the spectacle and not try and nail every shot, and so in that case for me the 'better' input method is going to be a gamepad.
EDIT:
Yes! Exactly, you could say that objectively the mouse is better for aiming, but that doesn't make it objectively the better control method unless the only reason you play an FPS is to continually aim shots the quickest and most precise possible, which I'm saying isn't compulsory to still enjoy the game.DoPo said:
So, they make the games easier?Artaneius said:
Why is this necessarily a good thing?
I get that if you are competing in a game where everyone can use either input-method, then you want to have that edge, it makes sense to use the one that makes the game easier, but it depends on what you want from the game.
Many, if not most answers in this thread are not about the competitive scene, they are about personal preference.
You can't just say that making the game easier is always the best choice. If you're playing single-player, (or a multiplayer where everyone uses the same type of control-scheme) then that argument doesn't really hold water.
It's a matter of personal preference and how the game is designed.
Oh, but that's where you're wrong. I know exactly what "objectively" means. If you average out all performance and were to, say, have a team composed of the world's best Halo 1 Xbox players play against a team of the world's best Halo 1 PC players, and they each played using their respective input methods, the PC players would have an advantage. Controllers lack the finesse and preciseness that a Mouse and Keyboard gives you in a first person shooter. Why does Call of Duty have aim-assist on consoles? Why does Quake 1 not play nearly as well on a controller? Because the KB+M is simply better.Shadowstar38 said:
They both have their uses and whichever one you use more you will be better with. The fact that people adapt makes comparing the two tricky, I think the best way to compare the two would be to test people who had no experience with either.
My own subjective experience is that people can make almost any game work on the keyboard to a degree, I played through Resident Evil 4 on PC before they rereleased it so I literally aimed with the arrow keys and it was awful at first, eventually I was able to beat the game on normal without much hassle. Had I been able to use a mouse, I could have probably beat harder modes of the game but I think people can in general make keyboard work for almost any game, even ones that highly recommend gamepads.
I do think that there are limitations to both KBM and gamepad that cannot be overcome no matter how much practice. On the KBM side, mouse control of FPS games is more precise than gamepad, joysticks only move so far and mouses can be moved much further, for instance at my sensitivity, if I slide my mouse from 1 side of my mousepad to the other, I spin 3 times in most FPS games, and it takes less than a second. Setting sensitivity to replicate that on a gamepad would make precision aiming much less accurate. Other KBM advantages are mouse usage for RTS games and the additional bindable keys available on keyboards, although more handy than advantageous.
Gamepads on the other hand offer better control of movement because most KBM games use keys to move, and keys are binary, on or off, unlike joysticks which can be tilted slightly for slower movements or better turns. I personally can beat most games fine with keyboard, even racing games, but it took a long time to learn how to tap keys correctly to perform tighter turns. Gamepads are also nice because they are more mobile, keyboards and mice need flat surfaces for precise movements, gamepads do not.
Basically, anyone who says "KBM or Gamepads are better" is wrong because each one has their own merits. A more specific statement could be seen as correct but its all very subjective. If I only played racing games, gamepads would be better than KBM, but that would only be true for me and not anyone else.
My own subjective experience is that people can make almost any game work on the keyboard to a degree, I played through Resident Evil 4 on PC before they rereleased it so I literally aimed with the arrow keys and it was awful at first, eventually I was able to beat the game on normal without much hassle. Had I been able to use a mouse, I could have probably beat harder modes of the game but I think people can in general make keyboard work for almost any game, even ones that highly recommend gamepads.
I do think that there are limitations to both KBM and gamepad that cannot be overcome no matter how much practice. On the KBM side, mouse control of FPS games is more precise than gamepad, joysticks only move so far and mouses can be moved much further, for instance at my sensitivity, if I slide my mouse from 1 side of my mousepad to the other, I spin 3 times in most FPS games, and it takes less than a second. Setting sensitivity to replicate that on a gamepad would make precision aiming much less accurate. Other KBM advantages are mouse usage for RTS games and the additional bindable keys available on keyboards, although more handy than advantageous.
Gamepads on the other hand offer better control of movement because most KBM games use keys to move, and keys are binary, on or off, unlike joysticks which can be tilted slightly for slower movements or better turns. I personally can beat most games fine with keyboard, even racing games, but it took a long time to learn how to tap keys correctly to perform tighter turns. Gamepads are also nice because they are more mobile, keyboards and mice need flat surfaces for precise movements, gamepads do not.
Basically, anyone who says "KBM or Gamepads are better" is wrong because each one has their own merits. A more specific statement could be seen as correct but its all very subjective. If I only played racing games, gamepads would be better than KBM, but that would only be true for me and not anyone else.
Ok, when your playing online with a game that supports both controller and kb/m, the controller players are going to get dominated every single time. Microsoft performed a test a couple years ago and took pro players from the competitive console communities (Halo, CoD, and Gears) and competitive PC communities (Quake, CS, and UT) to see if m/kb really had a huge advantage over controllers. They used PC version of Halo, Star Wars Battlefront 2, and Quake Wars. The pros using controllers lost every single game and the highest amount of kills the team had as a whole was like 10 for all the games they played. Thus the idea to combine Xbox Live and Windows Live communities was scrapped because those who m/kb are going to win by a lot every single time.Lieju said:
Yes, it's a matter of personal preference in terms of single player games. But in online games, I don't think you would have much fun if your losing every single game because it you "feel better" with a controller. I'm sorry, but you would either quit the game or use kb/m
And the funny thing is these were ACTUAL pros. Tsquared and Walshy were part of the console team and they got absolutely DESTROYED.