Why does America fear/distrust it's government?

[scott91575]

I have a question for all the Europeans and Australians that seem to love to bash capitalism...does the fact your world GDP percentage continues to shrink in the face of American, Asian, and Latin American capitalism scare you at all? USA percentage of world GDP has held pretty steady over the last 40 years (after a huge jump after WW2). Asian countries have seen a steady increase, and Latin America with a slight increase (they would be more of a threat if they could simply implement better law enforcement and reduce corruption). In the mean time, the EU continues a steady decline. If the trend continues the EU will be passed by Asia in the next decade, and in the next 50 to 100 years be similar to Latin America or even Africa.

That pretty much sums up why Americans do not like socialism. Yeah, it's great for a while when you can piggy back on the successes of the past. Everyone gets to share in the current wealth structure. Yet it is destined to be a slow death. Socialism stagnates the economy. In a vacuum it is great, but when going up against foreign competition it will continue to fall behind.

The USA certainly has it's own issues, and I am not in favor of unchecked capitalism. Yet I find it laughable how many people here laud socialism as being great when a continued erosion of your GDP with no signs of reversing is staring you right in the face. Sharing wealth is great, but at some point you won't have any to share.

and to get back to the original point, you trust a government that ignores that trend? Maybe you should trust your government less.

Heck, the US has a similar thing staring them in the face, the national debt. That too was caused by politicians.

 

[Enamour]

As uhh contradictory as this is going to sound mate, I actually agree with 99% of your retort. And yes I do come of as just another hater in this format. Where you're wrong though is that I haven't gone out to find stuff to support a pre-existing opinion. I really don't even want to be bothered by this topic, it's like Justin Bieber; I was happier before I knew of his existence but now I do.

And most everything you've answered on is true except that you're describing a lesser of two evils. The problem is that the US in contemporary history has been a constant lesser of two evils and very often an instigator of evil (evil being used as metaphorical language). It's an historical trend; there has almost always been one form of superpower or another fucking everyone around them over; a ruling class if you will. Most of Africa still hates B for the past.

Now the 1% I don't agree with you. WW2, those companies who supplied the Nazis... CEOs, majority stakeholders etc. were all high up, family members of, or otherwise closely related to US politicians.
As for South America... the CIA seems to have very good luck with opponents of the US when it comes to plane crashes; example newly elected South American presidents, vocal African opposers, and intellectuals who don't always seem to make it to press conferences; even internally unpopular senators... hmm... but this is just conspiracy theorizing.

And lastly, what I said about European governments, of course it's a contemporary comparison since we can't exactly spout world history at each other here. Also you only listed B which is European, the others aren't. But the rest of the examples can be answered with the "ever-present lesser of two evils" argument. Most countries have an "enemy" at any given point in time while the US in the last 50 years has pissed of most of the world and only has reluctant allies left.

I'm sure you know the following sentiment "Americans do not even realize why the world hates them." I'm reminded of South Park Season 7 Episode 1.

P.S Me and an American online friend had this same debate, each time we seperately went fact finding, shit just got worse and worse since neither of us had realized how fucked up the details were. He wasn't a happy American that evening.

Also, the power vaccuum left in Angola caused a very long(27 years, millions dead) civil war to continue. The South African government had warned its ally at the time that withdrawing without a solid government in place would cause that... but the US threatened sanctions. Angola isn't fond the US either.

 

[xXAsherahXx]

Crash Course:

Shady senators like Rob Blagoyavich (however you spell the man's name), shady presidents like Bush, unbelievably stupid candidates for the 2012 election (like Nute Gingrich and Michelle Bachmann), ridiculous new policies like that fancy new internet bill to put us all in jail, two failing wars, a critically high deficit, and a stagnant congress.

 

[Booradlee]

I was taught by my parents that the Republican party is a team of evil, lying, hypocritical douchebags who constantly try to wiggle around the rules that were made when the nation was formed. They are currently behind the wheel of Congress.

Republicans as a political party weren't around when the nation was formed.

 

[historybuff]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

The answer to this is in history. Right after WW2 America trusted its government. The Government looked out for us, got us through the war and the Depression.

After WW2 came the Cold War, where the US and Russia geared up for the arms race that would influence and control politics for the next fifty years.

Then came the rocky 60s. Civil Rights, riots, kids experimenting with every kind of music and drug, women entering the workforce in trousers, Vietnam--there was a lot of change.

And then came Richard Nixon.

Richard Nixon is most famous in the this country because of a little thing called Watergate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal). A huge scandal--where, basically, Nixon lied to us and tried to cover-up the whole business.

This was revealed through court proceedings and nearly resulted in his impeachment.


From this point onward, I would say. Americans really don't trust the government. That's why journalists are so important. That's why there are so many points of view on television news programs. They dig up whatever they can--and while it might seem trivial or silly--we do it because we don't want our government pulling a fast one on us.


It was like what was said to Bill Clinton after he decided to own up about his involvement with his intern. We would have forgiven him for the affair---but what we wouldn't forgive is the lying about it.


Of course, that's the more modern government. The reason the constitution and such is written in that way is because America was the first country to have a real elected leadership. We were terrified of monarchies and big governments controlling everything like they did in Europe at the time.

That sets the stage to the creation of a people who are extremely independent and don't want the government all up in their chili. So Europe got to see what did and didn't work for us and adjusted their systems---so now all European governments have some very similar traits (health care, education, more social benefits)--but we didn't adjust. We kind of rolled with the punches, pull you up by your bootstrap sort of thing.

And that kind of attitude lived on for a long time until, I'd say, the last sixty years. As society globalizes and modernizes at a fantastic rate, the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" can't really be applied anymore.

Minimum wage doesn't pay bills or send your kids to college. Rich get richer, the poor become destitute and the middle class struggles along as much as it can.


With that, it would seem like we would embrace free healthcare. But its the national attitude to 1. Distrust the government and 2. Do things by yourself.

It's much harder for previous generations. Young people like me (in their twenties and younger) it'll be easier because my middle class family couldn't pay for college. I put myself through and I never had health insurance. So I never went to the doctor. That is unfortunate. I think it's like 60% of people in crushing debt are so because of medical bills.

It's a tough call. We want to do things on our own--we're afraid to have that control taken away--even though it screws us. So people freak out a little bit at the idea of the government controlling something.

And remember, only the rich from the US get to go to Europe and actually see what you guys have (and make asses of themselves sometimes). Middle class like me and under. We don't get to go. We don't get to see that in northern Europe, you can send your kids to free day care. That in some European countries, you can go to university for free. That some European countries have months of maternity leave and not just a few weeks. That some of you get a whole month of vacation standard. We get two weeks, standard.


I think it's like, Japan is the only other country that works the hours America does.


So I dunno--I admire, at times, the work ethic but if we don't adapt...people will be left behind. So people are gonna rave and rant about the medical system but I personally hope it works out. It'll just take some time for people to get used to it.

 

[Kadoodle]

There are two types of distrust here: Idiot fuckface conspiracy theories, and the ongoing question of how much the government dabbles in our economy. The former can go fuck off, but the latter is a valid question. Most republicans want as little government intervention as possible, whereas democrats are more open to intervention if it is ultimately beneficial to the public well being. As a result, democrats are often labeled as "socialist pigs."

Because Bush won the election twice, noone knows what's going on in there.

Lmao, you just win a cookies.

 

[Nosforontu]

Of course, that's the more modern government. The reason the constitution and such is written in that way is because America was the first country to have a real elected leadership. We were terrified of monarchies and big governments controlling everything like they did in Europe at the time.

I would also add that their was also a real fear of the abuses of that masses as well when we were setting up the Republic as well. That we had a very real fear that if citizens were given direct control over the government rather being filtered via the Republic that they would vote themselves entitlements that the government could not long support.

 

[coolkirb]

its in the American culture to distrtust athority, their country was born in rebelling and thus has allways ahd a keep your nose out of my buisness attitude. In comparision Canada has been very acepting of its government and thus has a lot of civil obidience as we formed a country out of mutual agreement with Brittain through years of distance and a evolving relationship.

 

[Vankraken]

The problem with the American government (besides the inefficiency of bureaucracy) is that citizens elect candidates from a party and the system is basically stacked so only 2 parties have a chance of winning. These candidates are funded by corporations which want favors done once they are installed into office. So the end result is we are electing people who are suppose to represent the interest of the people they serve but instead are in effect working for the corporations that fund their campaign.

Also we have a group of people who represent the interest of corporations that directly interact with the representatives called lobbyist who's job is to influence the government to make decisions that benefit their needs. The representatives rarely bother to learn what the citizens of their state/district care about.

Combine these with the fact that congress basically can increase their own pay and its not uncommon for additional deals to be attached to bills that can result in funding for special projects (aka they only benefit a very select few) and other corrupt things.

The current political parties are far less interested in the welfare of the population and care more about promoting their own ideology, making money, and taking care of their benefactors and friends.

The biggest problem is people do not go into politics to make the country a better place but they go into it to gain power and money. The people who try to get into politics to truly help the country rarely get to the state government level before they get corrupted by the backroom deal making or stagnate because they don't play the "political game".

The interest of the people is often very low on the priority list for the typical national level politician.

 

[orangeban]

I have a question for all the Europeans and Australians that seem to love to bash capitalism...does the fact your world GDP percentage continues to shrink in the face of American, Asian, and Latin American capitalism scare you at all? USA percentage of world GDP has held pretty steady over the last 40 years (after a huge jump after WW2). Asian countries have seen a steady increase, and Latin America with a slight increase (they would be more of a threat if they could simply implement better law enforcement and reduce corruption). In the mean time, the EU continues a steady decline. If the trend continues the EU will be passed by Asia in the next decade, and in the next 50 to 100 years be similar to Latin America or even Africa.

That pretty much sums up why Americans do not like socialism. Yeah, it's great for a while when you can piggy back on the successes of the past. Everyone gets to share in the current wealth structure. Yet it is destined to be a slow death. Socialism stagnates the economy. In a vacuum it is great, but when going up against foreign competition it will continue to fall behind.

The USA certainly has it's own issues, and I am not in favor of unchecked capitalism. Yet I find it laughable how many people here laud socialism as being great when a continued erosion of your GDP with no signs of reversing is staring you right in the face. Sharing wealth is great, but at some point you won't have any to share.

and to get back to the original point, you trust a government that ignores that trend? Maybe you should trust your government less.

Heck, the US has a similar thing staring them in the face, the national debt. That too was caused by politicians.

Well, your point seems valid and I can see no exceptions to the idea you put forward.. OHWAIT! China! That (sort-of) communist state, which is the faster growing economy in the world!
Then Brazil! Also a very fast growing economy, which is governed by a left wing group of socialists! (There president used to be a marxist, toned it down a little when going into politics)

And you know what? I can deal with a bit of a recession (who knew that you would experience recession during a global financial recession /sarcasm) if it means free health care, free education, free housing, social security and welfare.

Urm, and I have no idea what you mean about sharing wealth. The way it works is the people pay tax to the government and the government pays them back in terms of serivices. No money is lost (ideally)

It's like saying, if I share my books among my family, soon my family will have no books left. Bwuh?

Edit: As someone living in Britain I distrust the Tory government because I think they're out to slash and destroy our welfare systems. Plus, David Cameron is the slimiest sonofabitch I ever did see.

 

[TheDude7053]

Because their all a bunch of money hungry corrupt assholes

 

[blackdwarf]

everyones distrust their goverment, but i do agree that america has more complot theories then other countries.

 

[starkiller212]

As a certain indispensable guide puts it:

"The major problem ? one of the major problems, for there are several ? one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."

 

[Kingpopadopalus]

snip

I agree that Bush was not the best of presidents but he did do great things such as what you said. It was either him, or it was gore or kerry, and lets all be honest, none of us could imagine what that would be like.

Statistically speaking the conservative held congress and senate have actually done better then any of the democratic ones preceding or succeeding. The cost of big government is lengthy and unwanted yet people don't happen to see that in the long run big government is going to run you into the ground and become a bureaucracy which will hinder itself in so much red tape it would appear to be the governments skin. Also if we were to go with a true democracy as so many people think we have currently (HA! jokes.) we would eventually fall into a dictatorship as has ever true democracy such as the ancient Greeks. So far a republic is the best system of government because if human greed comes into play we can just vote out our elected officials, if corruption occurs it's all able to be taken care of by removal from office. It's still flawed but it is the least flawed when dealing with people as we are now.

OT: Americans as a whole fear big government due to the fact that big government anywhere has yet to work and has also tried to keep us down before we became our own country. It was the lack of representation and the huge amount of power the government had that made us fear it ever being repeated because the last thing we want is to have to spill unnecessary blood. Especially those of innocents.

 

[razerdoh]

Dear Americans grow some balls an make your goverment fear you. As Thomas Jefferson once said: ?When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.?

And "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

 

[Nosforontu]

Well, your point seems valid and I can see no exceptions to the idea you put forward.. OHWAIT! China! That (sort-of) communist state, which is the faster growing economy in the world!

Except that China's Economic growth is still heavily tied to its ability to export to the United States to drive its own economy. Additionally their is this tidbit from http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-27/why-china-s-heading-for-a-hard-landing-part-1-a-gary-shilling.html

"But before you worry about China?s becoming No. 1 any time soon, consider the remaining gap between its economy and the U.S. economy. In 2009, China?s GDP was $4.9 trillion, only 34 percent of the U.S.?s $14.3 trillion. Because China has 1.32 billion people, or 4.3 times as many as the U.S. has, the gap in per-capita GDP was even bigger: China?s $3,709 was only 8 percent of the U.S.?s $46,405."

While their growth rate over the last 40 years has been very impressive they still have to grow by double digit numbers economically for the next three decades to overcome the United States and then only if we grow by 2%. Additionally that rapid growth rate in part comes from just how very bad their economy was before they began loosening it up after the end of the Cultural Revolution and a shift in policy by America to pry China away from the Soviets via various trade agreements.

 

[Kleingeier]

Dear Americans grow some balls an make your goverment fear you. As Thomas Jefferson once said: ?When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.?

And "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

Yes, because the US is the only country with a government that rules. The government is meant to rule, you dolt. That's why it's a government and not a club.

 

[Robert Ewing]

Lastly, free speech. I've often said that free speech is overrated, and often the world views America's views as very one-sided and jaded at times. Take the Westboro baptist church, KKK, Brooklyn street gangs, LA street gangs, Neo-nazi's, church of scientology-- All born from the 'gift of free speech.' I think you'll all agree that America has constitutionally shot themselves in the foot. Which they can't help now of course, it's forever embedded into the American constitution. But if I had to chose, I'd of set down some regulations on the whole free speech things. To maximize the amount of free speech for just reasons, and minimize the amount of hate and stupidity.

I appreciate and respect your ability to speak your mind, but get out of my country, Fascist. (Assuming, of course, you're in my country. Ahem.)
Sure, regulating what people can and cannot say seems like a great idea when it's things we don't agree with, but what happens when something close and important to you comes under scrutiny? What would you say, then?

Information and ideas should always be open for free exchange, no matter what we personally think of them, or even if they actually are of dubious morality. It's better that free and open discourse of ideas be able to be discussed and promoted publicly, no matter what they are-- keep it as the enemy you know. Ban the exchange of certain beliefs and ideas, and you only push it further underground, where it's potentially under even less scrutiny.

Our ability to have free and open discourse is one of the few true hallmarks we have left. Take that away, and we're only a few steps away from the likes of North Korea, Syria, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, and others who seek to control their populaces thoughts and beliefs. And that....should scare the shit out of anyone.

ed-- We already teeter on the brink of collapsing into a fundamentalist ideology if the Religious Right movement gains much more steam. Regulating thoughts and ideas is just one more way to push us closer to that edge.

I wasn't saying that you'd completely police free speech. I'm saying you need to police the extremists that cause real danger to the people around them. Physically and mentally, as the pen is mightier than the sword, words can influence both terrible and great things in people, I just want to help minimize the terrible part. If you want to call me a fascist for wanting all organizations based around hatred, violence, lies, gone... Then yeah I'm a fascist.

 

[VanTesla]

Corruption, greed, propaganda, using a old system that is out dated, two party system, corporations have to much control, the insane amount of contradictions they make through actions and words, trying to police the world when it can't even police it's self, and being major dicks to everyone that does not have power.

I don't think we have close to the worse Gov't in industrial sociaty, but we are no where near the top 10 best (in my opinion). Rather be in America than China, Russia, Brazil, Iran, Israel, India, etc. I have no fear of my Gov't, because I do nothing that would make them come at me.

I would love to make major changes in how my government is run though.

 

[Infernai]

I live in Australia, so if the american government is anything like ours...I don't blame them.