Why does gender only have to be asthetic?

[Seieko Pherdo]

While you have good idea (that need work) it's hard to insert them to due time, money, and government harping on video games instead of taking care of real problems.

 

[amucha98]

.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

For the purposes of balanced gameplay as well as equality if you are going to make the female version of the protagonist physically weaker then you will have to make up for it in some other respect, like, idk, in a fantasy rpg making the female more magically powerful and the male more physically powerful.

 

[plugav]

Making gender differences deeper than the looks and minor stats might benefit gameplay (adding replay value, for one), but you shouldn't end up with a game in which only one gender is handicapped. They might require different playstyles and open different routes. Simplest example: if you have an all male organisation, add an all female one. And make sure they're equally entertaining.

Unless of course you want to make a game about how hard it is to be a woman in the nuclear wasteland. In that case, just let us play a female (which lets you make a more focused game, by the way). Give her all the handicaps you want and have her work around them. That sounds like a very satisfying gameplay experience to me.

 

[similar.squirrel]

I've pondered this before, and came to the conclusion that it would be all too easy for a developer to be labelled as 'sexist' if they implemented any gender-based stat changes. Risk-taking is not something that happens in the games industry. Still, in a more sensible world, it could lead to interesting mechanics. We'll see how the medium develops, anyway.

Also, reported for atrocious spelling and grammar. Nothing personal, but please try to make your posts look respectable.

 

[Nami nom noms]

well I'll answer the question right now

time and rescources of coarse

anyway this is NOT inspired by brink or anythign else like that, no its somthing else Ive been thinking of

now I know in most games that offer double genders there are differences, and usually its not changed where gender doesnt matter, whichis good I guess, equality and all that

anyway I was thinking about a game like fallout New vegas, what if the gener difference went a little deeper?

for example, females...just all round are weaker, less strength and they will never be strong as males

and people treat you differently more..a little more "realisticly" (note the comma's)

for example, you simply couldn't go near the powder gangers without them trying to capture and...well rape you, mabye if you have a high enough speech skill you can convince them otherwise and/or do the quests for them

and the legion? forget about it, you cant ally with them (I dont know how it works in NV I havnt tried that)

you attacked more in freeside, it would be harder to talk serious buisness with the casino bosses and other stuff like that

the reason Ive been thinking this is because I guess it could add another tactial way of doing things, and change the experience, I know that the fallout universe is pretty much eaqual opertunity for obvious reasons, But I dont know, mabye another universe?

anyway Im not saying theres anything wrong with how its done now, its just a thourght

The problem is some women are stronger then some men and vice versa. It's not fair to simply give anyone who is a female gender and automatic lower stat.

Also not all women are attractive, why would they be better at convincing enemies then others?

Finally, enemies that try to rape u? make it both genders (its pretty lonely out there in the wastelands) and you've created the most terrifying enemies in a videogame.
Except a lot of sickos would probably like it

 

[DEAD34345]

I think you need to come back to reality. Men have a lot more testosterone which builds muscle. Men have significantly heavier frames. Men are stronger, more durable and physically far more dominant. Because games tend to be about this kind of thing - focussed around endurance and other physical activities - a female character in any kind of realistic setting is going to be penalised.

Just plain reality and it's not sexist to accurately depict the way the human body functions.

The idea of 'a fighting style that compensates her having less upper body strength' is utter rubbish. All forms of physical combat sports (boxing, wrestling, MMA, traditional martial arts) have weight divisions for very good reasons. Further even on equal weight, men carry more muscle than women.

What you are forgetting is that ON AVERAGE females will be weaker, and ON AVERAGE males will be stronger. There's plenty of very strong women and also plenty of very strong men. There is no reason why at character creation you should have to be an average woman or an average man, since that completely nullifies the point of character creation in the first place. I think any physical differences should just be left out at character creation, but that usually (not always) female NPCs will be a little weaker than male NPCs (possibly make up for this in other ways).

However, I think a game that takes your gender into account when judging others' reactions would be a good idea. Not everyone would treat you differently, but if someone is sexist, or the society the game is set in is sexist then it would be realistic and fun to have. Exactly like how they did it in Warband.

 

[Sun Flash]

Apart from what has already been said, I already go through that in real life, I don't want to deal with it in videogames.

It's escapism, I don't want the game to tell me I'm genetically inferior when people already do that for me.

Plus you tend to play the "chosen one" role in many games, so your character is hardly representative of gender norms.

 

[Indecipherable]

I think you need to come back to reality. Men have a lot more testosterone which builds muscle. Men have significantly heavier frames. Men are stronger, more durable and physically far more dominant. Because games tend to be about this kind of thing - focussed around endurance and other physical activities - a female character in any kind of realistic setting is going to be penalised.

Just plain reality and it's not sexist to accurately depict the way the human body functions.

The idea of 'a fighting style that compensates her having less upper body strength' is utter rubbish. All forms of physical combat sports (boxing, wrestling, MMA, traditional martial arts) have weight divisions for very good reasons. Further even on equal weight, men carry more muscle than women.

What you are forgetting is that ON AVERAGE females will be weaker, and ON AVERAGE males will be stronger. There's plenty of very strong women and also plenty of very strong men. There is no reason why at character creation you should have to be an average woman or an average man, since that completely nullifies the point of character creation in the first place. I think any physical differences should just be left out at character creation, but that usually (not always) female NPCs will be a little weaker than male NPCs (possibly make up for this in other ways).

However, I think a game that takes your gender into account when judging others' reactions would be a good idea. Not everyone would treat you differently, but if someone is sexist, or the society the game is set in is sexist then it would be realistic and fun to have. Exactly like how they did it in Warband.

Those are all from olympic records so I assure you that not only are the averages hugely in favour of males, but the absolute elite keeps that the same way.

I think some people have watched far too many manga/anime/movies/fake martial arts.

 

[Terminal Blue]

There's a bits I agree with you here and bits I don't..

For example, physical strength differences are not essential. An Olympic Women's weightlifting champion is going to be considerably stronger than anyone posting here. While it may be generally true that men tend to be stronger across the curve, your characters in a game are generally not the 'average' person, and, you know.. ultimately who cares. It's a bit like saying black people should be able to run faster in games because their feet tend to be better shaped for distance running over flat terrain. Statistically, yes. But really don't go there.

In terms of having people treat you differently though beyond occasionally different characters trying to get into your pants. Yeah, that would be interesting. The important thing, however, is balance. It's one thing to make female and male experiences different, it's quite another to impose significant limitations on players for playing women unless you're doing it self-consciously and without it being immutable (Mount and Blade did this quite well). It may be accurate in some ways to suggest that the escaped criminals would try to attack your character, but it's a little close to home, especially for what is ostensibly a fantasy setting.

One of the big advantages of making up game worlds away from reality is the ability to rewrite gender scripts a little and have, for example, women going out and kicking ass in guns and power armour. While it could be really interesting to explore how characters would react to such a 'tough' woman convincingly, I think outright coming out and socially disadvantaging female characters with no ostensible advantages beyond maybe being able to bargain power from men using sex just cuts a little close to the very real problems of the world we live in. For all that we can whine about sassy badass chicks being a particularly male fantasy, it's still better than the alternative.

 

[DEAD34345]

Those are all from olympic records so I assure you that not only are the averages hugely in favour of males, but the absolute elite keeps that the same way.

I think some people have watched far too many manga/anime/movies/fake martial arts.

Ok then, so the very strongest people in the game are more likely to be male. That's fair enough, but doesn't really counter my argument at all. My point is that a female can be much stronger than most males, just as a male can be much weaker than most females. Forcing you to play as the average female or the average male at character creation is pointless, and nullifies the entire point of having a character creation system.

 

[Iron Mal]

As others have already sad, if you were to actually have 'realstic' depictions of the inequalities between men and women then you'd have mass outcry from women about how the game is sexist or have a negetive depiction of women, if there are people willing to start a fight over the fact that Soul Calibur's Ivy only wears what amounts to a hybrid of a string bikini and S&M leather then what do you think the response to 'our women not only can't hope to ever be as good in a fight as men but they will always be under constant threat of rape and incapacitation by pregnancy' will be?

Even the usual way of trying to imply a difference between the sexes (that being with men gaining a boost to physical strength and women gaining a boost to mental capacity) is something a double standard because it's only half true, on average men are in fact physically stronger than women (there are exceptionally strong women but they tend to be exception rather than the rule, I have heard that women do poesess a greater level of pain tolerance and durability than men however) however it would be something of an inaccuracy to say that women are on average smarter or wiser than men (I'd say that they're fairly equal in this department, main difference being the areas and ways in which they're smart or wise).

Ways I could think of reflecting the average for men and women (statistically for an RPG this is, other games may be a bit harder) would be to do some of the following:

1- Men still maintain their typical strength boost (as stated above, men do often posess more muscle mass than women and are usually physically larger).

2- Women gain a boost to health or durability (again, I remember hearing that apparantly women are more tolerant of pain and are less panicked by the sight of their own blood).

3- We leave intelligence/wisdom the hell alone (this one is more down to individual differences and upbringing in my experience than gender).

4- Women gain a bonus to any skill/ability/task that revolves around persuasion/reasoning/talking (most people percieve women as being less threatening and more caring and social).

5- Men are harder to panic or break the morale of (in the past men have been expected to lay their lives down in large numbers to protect women and children and as such are seen as being much more expendable, this results in men usually being the first to investigate or take action in a potentially dangerous unknown situation, eg. hearing someone break into your house during the night).

That list isn't perfect by all means (anyone who wants to make suggestions, improvements or to criticise me outight by all means feel free to) but I feel those ideas would at least be a starting point for differences in gender that actually reflect typical traits of the sexes.

There is also the usual way out of simply having no difference but it could be argued that's just avoiding the issue (and it's weird that having Commander Shepard in Mass Effect be statistically idenitcal as a man or a woman isn't ever criticised when I have heard quite a few people denounce the femininity of Samus Aran from Metroid because 'it's just an extra detail, it doesn't affect the game and she could just as easily be a robot').

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

You haven't noted any way in which Males will be handicapped. And that IS what you'ce suggested by the way; 3 different ways to have female characters handicapped in New Vegas. I see no benefit in limiting player choices. All quests should be open to both genders except, like, Romance sub-quests, I guess. But that already happens so...

hmmm perhaps interacting with charachters, like for what ever reason some wont trust you as easyly (Makes me think of the hooker sidequest in NV)

I guess the "physical" side of things is definetly flawed but as for interacting with charachters and their reactions...yeah thats what Im getting at

What "Hooker sidequest" are you talking about?

 

[Indecipherable]

Those are all from olympic records so I assure you that not only are the averages hugely in favour of males, but the absolute elite keeps that the same way.

I think some people have watched far too many manga/anime/movies/fake martial arts.

Ok then, so the very strongest people in the game are more likely to be male. That's fair enough, but doesn't really counter my argument at all. My point is that a female can be much stronger than most males, just as a male can be much weaker than most females. Forcing you to play as the average female or the average male at character creation is pointless, and nullifies the entire point of having a character creation system.

I think it counters it perfectly. Men are stronger on average and also have greater maximum capacity. Therefore are stronger, therefore should be represented as such in a game that aims to reflect reality.

 

[SuperNova221]

Lot of people posting about how characters in games aren't your average person, and true that is. But that's not a reason to not make a game where it does explore such an issue. Although if gender was selectable they would have to put handicaps on both genders.

@Iron Mal: Pain tolerance should be left alone really, but if it had to be touched on it would be the opposite if anything. Although here's some food for thought. http://qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?start=0&t=3198 (They even provide sources! Marvelous.)

Edit again: As for sexism problems, if you only made differences that have been proven genetically it would be hard to make any arguement against it. Making spcial differences though, that's where it owuld become a bit more contraversial.

 

[Jake Martinez]

I think some people need to get a grip.

The reason why generally this kind of reality isn't implemented is because it's not fun. Just the same reason why you don't have to walk your avatar to the toilet every couple of hours, or sit there looking at a blank screen while they sleep. Or why the space is so condensed in sandbox games like New Vegas (Who would really want to spend 3 days of real time walking between locations?)

 

[Vault101]

You haven't noted any way in which Males will be handicapped. And that IS what you'ce suggested by the way; 3 different ways to have female characters handicapped in New Vegas. I see no benefit in limiting player choices. All quests should be open to both genders except, like, Romance sub-quests, I guess. But that already happens so...

hmmm perhaps interacting with charachters, like for what ever reason some wont trust you as easyly (Makes me think of the hooker sidequest in NV)

I guess the "physical" side of things is definetly flawed but as for interacting with charachters and their reactions...yeah thats what Im getting at

What "Hooker sidequest" are you talking about?

Joanna from Gamorrah, you have to help her escape, it also takes a little coaxing to get her to drop the hooker act and tell you whats really wrong

I was thinking..mabye with somthing similar it would be ALOT harder if you were male to get her to tell you whats wrong and let you help her,or you have to do thing alternitivley

anyway it was like a two second Idea

 

[DEAD34345]

I think it counters it perfectly. Men are stronger on average and also have greater maximum capacity. Therefore are stronger, therefore should be represented as such in a game that aims to reflect reality.

You seem to think my point is that men and women should be treated exactly the same in games in terms of strength and physical abilities, which isn't my point at all. My point is that when you are creating a character in a game, you shouldn't be limited to the average male or female stats, since that removes the point of creating a character in the first place. You should be free to create a strong female or a weak male, as both of those things do exist.

Sure, most of the male NPCs should be stronger than most of the female NPCs, since that's how it works in real life (if the game is going for realism anyway). This still doesn't mean that every male is strong and every female is weak. There's nothing stopping a woman from being strong, only things that make it less likely or more difficult (or both).

 

[Vault101]

well I'll answer the question right now

time and rescources of coarse

anyway this is NOT inspired by brink or anythign else like that, no its somthing else Ive been thinking of

now I know in most games that offer double genders there are differences, and usually its not changed where gender doesnt matter, whichis good I guess, equality and all that

anyway I was thinking about a game like fallout New vegas, what if the gener difference went a little deeper?

for example, females...just all round are weaker, less strength and they will never be strong as males

and people treat you differently more..a little more "realisticly" (note the comma's)

for example, you simply couldn't go near the powder gangers without them trying to capture and...well rape you, mabye if you have a high enough speech skill you can convince them otherwise and/or do the quests for them

and the legion? forget about it, you cant ally with them (I dont know how it works in NV I havnt tried that)

you attacked more in freeside, it would be harder to talk serious buisness with the casino bosses and other stuff like that

the reason Ive been thinking this is because I guess it could add another tactial way of doing things, and change the experience, I know that the fallout universe is pretty much eaqual opertunity for obvious reasons, But I dont know, mabye another universe?

anyway Im not saying theres anything wrong with how its done now, its just a thourght

The problem is some women are stronger then some men and vice versa. It's not fair to simply give anyone who is a female gender and automatic lower stat.

Also not all women are attractive, why would they be better at convincing enemies then others?

Finally, enemies that try to rape u? make it both genders (its pretty lonely out there in the wastelands) and you've created the most terrifying enemies in a videogame.
Except a lot of sickos would probably like it

for example, you simply couldn't go near the powder gangers without them trying to capture and...well rape you, mabye if you have a high enough speech skill you can convince them otherwise and/or do the quests for them

I play video games to enjoy myself, but also because, usually, the games (the ones I've played, anyway :b) don't treat me much differently as a woman than as a man. Something that doesn't always happen irl. I get the same respect and the same amount of shit, which is how I would want it IRL. It's an idealized world.
I don't want to go around fearing my character getting raped by gangs... maybe that's fun for some people, but not me :/

well usually you can imply thease things without going into graphic detail...

but yeah that wasnt very well thourght out

I just found it odd that I could go hangout with the powder gangers and they didnt notice I was female...I mean in most cases they would probably try and rape or at least not be very nice to a female

however for obvious reasons they didnt include stuff like that and probably for the better

 

[Vault101]

Those are all from olympic records so I assure you that not only are the averages hugely in favour of males, but the absolute elite keeps that the same way.

I think some people have watched far too many manga/anime/movies/fake martial arts.

Ok then, so the very strongest people in the game are more likely to be male. That's fair enough, but doesn't really counter my argument at all. My point is that a female can be much stronger than most males, just as a male can be much weaker than most females. Forcing you to play as the average female or the average male at character creation is pointless, and nullifies the entire point of having a character creation system.

I think it counters it perfectly. Men are stronger on average and also have greater maximum capacity. Therefore are stronger, therefore should be represented as such in a game that aims to reflect reality.

ok men are stronger than women in real life

how ever that is somwhat beside the point here

now if we are talking about in a game peoples reactiosn to you...thats more interesting