Why does gender only have to be asthetic?

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GloatingSwine

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Indecipherable said:
I think it counters it perfectly. Men are stronger on average and also have greater maximum capacity. Therefore are stronger, therefore should be represented as such in a game that aims to reflect reality.
No-one wants to play an average person in videogames. Being average is what people play videogames to get away from.

Any character you play as in a videogame where this kind of physical prowess matters is already an exceptional specimen, so the concept of what is average for men and women does not apply to them.
 

Vault101

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plugav said:
Making gender differences deeper than the looks and minor stats might benefit gameplay (adding replay value, for one), but you shouldn't end up with a game in which only one gender is handicapped. They might require different playstyles and open different routes. Simplest example: if you have an all male organisation, add an all female one. And make sure they're equally entertaining.

Unless of course you want to make a game about how hard it is to be a woman in the nuclear wasteland. In that case, just let us play a female (which lets you make a more focused game, by the way). Give her all the handicaps you want and have her work around them. That sounds like a very satisfying gameplay experience to me.
yeah that was my Original Idea working around obsticles...like being female is hardcore mode

I guess its somthing that I would like to experience in a game...the extra hardship of being female or what ever, not that being a man isnt hard

but yeah other people have good points and it would be tricky to implement without people crying sexism
 

Thaluikhain

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Vault101 said:
yeah that was my Original Idea working around obsticles...like being female is hardcore mode
Instead of a difficulty setting, you have a gender setting?

That's crazy awesome.
 

Vault101

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GloatingSwine said:
Indecipherable said:
I think it counters it perfectly. Men are stronger on average and also have greater maximum capacity. Therefore are stronger, therefore should be represented as such in a game that aims to reflect reality.
No-one wants to play an average person in videogames. Being average is what people play videogames to get away from.

Any character you play as in a videogame where this kind of physical prowess matters is already an exceptional specimen, so the concept of what is average for men and women does not apply to them.
while that is somwhat true that doesnt mean we should write off certain Ideas completley

Like "being averge" depending on what kind of expereice your trying to put across could present interesting challenges

like a survival horror game

like I said depends on what youre putting across...people play god of war to feel powerful and angry...or silent hill to be scared to death
 

Indecipherable

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thaluikhain said:
Vault101 said:
yeah that was my Original Idea working around obsticles...like being female is hardcore mode
Instead of a difficulty setting, you have a gender setting?

That's crazy awesome.
Considering how many games are based around male orientated physical activity it would make sense. However it would get a lot of people pissed off and create a lot of hostility.
 

thegrimfandango

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There's the germ on an interesting idea there, but not one that I think is for me.
I prefer the freedom of making a unique character, especially in games like the Fallout series ( or at least, one that feels unique to me).
I can make a sneaky, lithe,snappily dressed, smooth talking, short-sighted casanova type guy who'd get mashed in the average fistfight, to a no-time-for-talking, shoot first, ask questions later, hulking power armour wearing, scary woman who'd rather pan your face in with a shovel, and everything in-between or any combination thereof.
I'm not sure how I'd enjoy gender-based disadvantages in such a game, especially since they almost seem to be really predictable and based on some vague 'real-life' average (men get a strength boost, etc etc).
 

Ranorak

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Oblivion has different stats for different genders.
For instance, Breton females start with 30 strength instead of 40. But they have 40 speed instead of 30.

It's not unheard of.
 

Hydro14

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As with any work of fiction, a video game is going to contain some of the designer's values and attitudes towards society. The distinction comes in (and this is something that mainstream media has a penchant for ignoring when it suits them) when you have to identify the difference between a value that is being presented by a fictional character (and so may or may not therefore be supported by the designer, usually indicated by how the character behaves otherwise; if they show other values that are usually associated with being detrimental, usually it's a value that the designer does not share) or if it's presented by the designer themselves.

Take DNF for example, the game is presented in a tongue in cheek manner that suggests the values the Duke holds are not shared by the designer. The media simply latches onto the fact that the Duke is the protagonist and so overlooks the possibility that he might intentionally be a flawed protagonist, or even a satirical parody of a protagonist.

The point is that there is a difference between the attitudes shown by a character and the attitudes shown by the game. In Mount and Blade Warband it is the characters that treat you differently, but what the OP is suggesting is that the game treats you differently. At that stage you're getting a value that is expressed explicitly by the designer. Whether that value is sexism or realism becomes subjective and you KNOW which one the media will pick up and run with. This points towards the unrealistic balance (and it is unrealistic, there is statistical evidence to prove that men are stronger than women given equal preparation (that is to say, equal training, equal nutrition etc.)) being an acceptable break from reality. Look at the 'humans' in video games more closely. How many of them need to vacate their bowels? How many need to even eat or sleep? More breaks from reality, and most of them are accepted. Perhaps it would be better if we just stopped saying they were human? Would anyone here call a game out for lack of realism if female elves were as strong as male elves?

It is intriguing though that a number of games will feature a number of species that the player can choose from for their character that influence what stats, classes, and quests are available to them but it's rare to ever get a complaint of racism. There is one factor that could possibly explain this: balance. While choosing a certain species or race in a game may be restrictive, there is no 'best' option. It's unclear why having a character's sex play a similar part as a component in a character's 'build' is considered morally grey.

To conclude, I think that having some variance isn't a bad idea as long as the game was well balanced. For every opportunity that is closed for choosing a female character, another should be opened. For every point lost in one stat, another should be gained. Above all though there should be balance in terms of how much the other characters perceive this one trait of the player character compared to others. If every character in the game behaves no differently to a beefed up warrior as they do to a nerdy academic, why should they act differently based on the player character's sex? Finally, it is VITAL that in a game with variable path options the player is ranked by most of the characters who are portrayed as being morally sound according to their past actions first, and other traits second, and to those who don't the player should have the freedom to react how they choose. To elaborate, that does not mean the player should be free of consequence. If for example the captain of the guard in a specific city is a sexist pig, if the player killed him (in a manner that would realistically get them caught) they should be arrested and whatever else then happens, but they should still have the option to try, rather than just have the guard captain be bulletproof.
 

Vivace-Vivian

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Dense_Electric said:
I would like the idea of physical size and muscle mass influencing things like strength, speed, etc., but I would have it be determined by a system in which the player can customize their character's body. Trying to decide it black-and-white by gender seems a little backwards at best, suggesting all men are the same and all women are the same. You have a good basic idea, but a flawed execution.
Agreed.

Also if you're going to have a 'gender based' speech system or anything like that remember there are also 'generally' things that women are better at.

For example, women tend to be more dexterous.

Shall we lower the dexterity of men to be more 'realistic'?

People need to realise this goes both ways.
 

Jasper Jeffs

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It'd suck to walk around getting raped, but the difference in attitude would be pretty cool. The only time I haven't picked a female for aesthetics was on Guild Wars where you can make female characters smaller than males, which was good against people in PVP who clicked.
 

loodmoney

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Re: making women weaker in the game (though others have already covered this better that I could): this would represent a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics as well as video game logic--epic saviours of the world do not accept your essentialist interpretations of bell curves.

OT: Others have mentioned Warband as an example of a game that keeps your abilities the same yet treats you differently depending on sex, but also check out flash game Loved [http://www.kongregate.com/games/AlexanderOcias/loved]. It gives you a "choice" of sex at the start, and treats you differently depending on what you chose. Although the player's abilities (and look, for that matter) remain the same either way, it does thing like give gendered praise and blame for your actions (e.g. "good girl", "ugly creature" for girls), making the experience different depending on sex. Choosing to be male or female in this game is much deeper than aesthetics.
 

IamQ

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The hard part in that system would then be to balance it out. If your weaker physically as a female, then why would anybody want to play as one? In that case they would have to think of new weaknesses for the men aswell, so that both have the same appeal to the player.
 

AngloDoom

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For those people who often like to play their own gender, it limits them.

Example: My girlfriend often plays as absolute tanks on videogames. However, she always plays as women too. If women were naturally lower in a 'Strength' stat than men, she is at a disadvantage with the character she wants to play as.

If the stat changes aren't significant enough to make a difference to gameplay then it might as well be left out to save time and money.
 

lacktheknack

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Veterinari said:
If we're talking about a straight-up stat change at the character creation screen then no, this could never be anything but a stupid thing.
The Elder Scrolls got away with it.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

Argonian males are quicker and more agile than females, while the females are sharper and more willful.

Khajit males are more powerful, the women are more hardy.

Orcish women are smarter than the males, while the men are somewhat more likable and iron-willed.

And so on.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that.
 

Clarkarius

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Extra Credits mentioned something like this in passing not long ago, in that you could use biological differences and use them in game mechanics. For example:

1) Women on average are more dexterous then men and are less sensitive to physical pain/reaction too.

2) Men are able to generate greater muscle mass beyond a point where women are unable too.

As for mental differences, (and hear me out on this one) I don't really think it is a mechanic that needs be altered as it is the gamer solving the puzzles or the mystery at hand so they themselves will pick the path they want to choose, and as such the 'brain sex' elements would be added here in accordance to which approach they prefer.

Social ability on the other hand is more to do with elements within society we consider to be inherent to both men and women, when in fact these elements can be changed within any society a game is based in. For example a women shoot first ask questions later society. So again I would leave social buffs and stat ups out of the picture.

Ergo in say a 1-100 stat system RPGs this is how I would adopt gender differences to a games mechanics, providing small differences yet at the same time intending that they would not alter game flow to much. Hence going no greater then a 10 point increase in a stats cap.

Male character: +1-10% Max Stregnth Cap. +1 Athletics
Female character: +1-10% Max Dexterity Cap, +1 Acrobatics

But this is just my opinion.
 

lacktheknack

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Vivace-Vivian said:
For example, women tend to be more dexterous.

Shall we lower the dexterity of men to be more 'realistic'?
Definitely. That's the point.

But then again, the ideal system would be to be entirely customizable, so that design choice would be a little less important.

But of course, if the muscle cap for males is higher than females (as it is in reality), then why not have the dexterity cap be higher for females than males (as it probably is in reality)? You can still have very dexterous men who can do epic feats of acrobatics and extremely fast lockpicking, but a top-of-class woman would out-maneuver them.
 

PipPup

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I could see a problem existing with some interpreting it as a form of sexism becaused people are more than just their gender. Sure, we can determine it by how they look, but in the end they are just people have been assigned a gender randomly. People are people; they are not what society expects them to be based on gender.
 

ironduke88

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Sapient Pearwood said:
Indecipherable said:
I think you need to come back to reality. Men have a lot more testosterone which builds muscle. Men have significantly heavier frames. Men are stronger, more durable and physically far more dominant. Because games tend to be about this kind of thing - focussed around endurance and other physical activities - a female character in any kind of realistic setting is going to be penalised.
I think you're exaggerating the differences. There would be some difference but not to the point where you'd have to get into rebalancing stats. Also remember that unarmed combat rarely comes into it so talking about MMA doesn't make much sense, you can easily find a weapon that compensates for a lack of upper body strength.
Exactly some of the best fencers I know are women.

Furthermore, yes if we are talkind population averages men are more likely to be stronger. However, look up the female world record holder for the clean and jerk Jang Mi-Ran. I bet she lifts more than anyone else on this website... 187kg is a lot of weight to be going over your head.
 

Boaal

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The uproar that doing anything but aesthetic change to gender wuld cause? It'd be huge. There would cries if 'sexism' EVERYWHERE.
 

Savagezion

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o_O

Referring to FO:NV specifically:
Why not just set your SPECIAL strength stat to 1 or 2? I have ran a guy on it with 2 strength before. If I were to make a "dainty" female in stats I would give her a low strength, to spend more points in agility. All the other stats are more based on the person than the gender. Muscle mass hinders agility.

As for the powder gangers, I l prefer the faction system over a stereotype of a convict gang. The world of FO makes one need to be more cautious of strangers so much so that even getting a hooker would mean you would want to verify her clientele's dicks aren't turning green and falling off. You don't just have STD's to worry about but also radiation and shit. As well, most people in this world have survival instinct and expect the worst from people and are prepared to have to fight against it. Raping a random woman doesn't seem like something one would consider in that world without knowing a large risk was involved. Especially, when it seems every town is populated with at least one prostitute.

Women have an agility edge over men. As in even the strongest women will always be more flexible than the strongest men because muscle mass hinders males. So women should have a natural bonus to dex/agi and men should have a natural bonus to strength. But if it were based on realism, we are talking a ~20% bonus.