"Why don't they emphasis penises like that?!"
- Thread starter Paragon Fury
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Yeah, that seems to be limited to one type of media while people taking advantage of boobs seems to be across way more kinds of media. The problem with your argument is that that section of media isn't particularly common in the everyday life of most people so it may as well be irrelevant. It certainly doesn't invalidate many complaints, if any at all due to the sheer lack of it what with it being a dirty little secret more than anything.ravenshrike said:*Points to giant wall of bodice rippers/mommy porn at local library*The Almighty Aardvark said:Give me a call when this becomes the standard for male characters:
That IS the standard in your average harlequin romance novel. That the medium is not visual is completely irrelevant. Women are less visual than men when it comes to sexuality. This has been known for quite a while.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808430
Instead, they get their rocks off on descriptions and feelings. Unfortunately for their gendered sexual peccadilloes, it is much easier to convey visual stimuli through video games than it is emotional, which means that yes, Virginia, video games will ALWAYS(If and when full-body VR including sensations like touch, taste, and scent becomes available this may change) be oriented towards a male sexual perspective. GET OVER IT
Apparently people aren't going to "get over it" so maybe you should?
I mean it's entirely possible to market sexuality towards women across a lot more medias, and we rarely see it. Anime, Manga, Movies, TV, comics, games, etc. And A lot of that stuff? It's created by guys considering how male-centric the machines that make these medias are. I seriously doubt guys drop everything, grab the nearest woman, and have them write all the parts for women. No, guys write female characters, and male characters, and appeal to a lot of people in the process.
Less rarity, and more diversity in media across the board will probably be the only way people will "get over it." Essentially telling people to shut up isn't going to stop people, frankly.
You realize your references to bishounen and yaoi kinda undermines your point that sexual content for females in a visual medium is impossible, given that those are sexual content for females in a visual medium? And you're also excusing lazy game design as an inevitability. I imagine you wouldn't make the same argument were we talking about fixing bugs, or porting the game.ravenshrike said:I like how you manage to ignore EVERY soap opera ever. And romcoms. And movies like The Notebook. Or that really bad Keanu Reeves time travel movie. As for anime and manga AHAHHHAHAHHHHAHHAHAHHAHAAHAAHHAHAHHAHHAHAH! Does the word Yaoi mean anything to you? Or Bishounen? Or... you get the picture. Rarely see it my ass. That you choose not to see is no one's problem but your own. You want games with emotional depth, pony up a kickstarter and make one. If it's wildly successful, the mainstream will, as they always do, immediately jump on it and create carbon copies. The fact of the matter is that emotional depth in a game, and not an interactive story but an actual game, is difficult. This is especially true in any AAA game since they tend to be less than 10 hours. You want to shoehorn emotional depth in as well? Not gonna happen.Rebel_Raven said:Yeah, that seems to be limited to one type of media while people taking advantage of boobs seems to be across way more kinds of media. The problem with your argument is that that section of media isn't particularly common in the everyday life of most people so it may as well be irrelevant. It certainly doesn't invalidate many complaints, if any at all due to the sheer lack of it what with it being a dirty little secret more than anything.ravenshrike said:*Points to giant wall of bodice rippers/mommy porn at local library*The Almighty Aardvark said:Give me a call when this becomes the standard for male characters:
That IS the standard in your average harlequin romance novel. That the medium is not visual is completely irrelevant. Women are less visual than men when it comes to sexuality. This has been known for quite a while.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808430
Instead, they get their rocks off on descriptions and feelings. Unfortunately for their gendered sexual peccadilloes, it is much easier to convey visual stimuli through video games than it is emotional, which means that yes, Virginia, video games will ALWAYS(If and when full-body VR including sensations like touch, taste, and scent becomes available this may change) be oriented towards a male sexual perspective. GET OVER IT
Apparently people aren't going to "get over it" so maybe you should?
I mean it's entirely possible to market sexuality towards women across a lot more medias, and we rarely see it. Anime, Manga, Movies, TV, comics, games, etc. And A lot of that stuff? It's created by guys considering how male-centric the machines that make these medias are. I seriously doubt guys drop everything, grab the nearest woman, and have them write all the parts for women. No, guys write female characters, and male characters, and appeal to a lot of people in the process.
Less rarity, and more diversity in media across the board will probably be the only way people will "get over it." Essentially telling people to shut up isn't going to stop people, frankly.
Well, first off, I suggest you take a moment to relax. It seems like you haven't read much of anything I wrote.ravenshrike said:
You're the one who's been basically, exclusively pointing out romance novels for one, for two I certainly haven't ignored a lot of the stuff you mentioned it because I MENTIONED they can cater to a diverse crowd, but it's not as common to the average person, which isn't helping your case. Seeing such in the west, in common media isn't common, maybe soaps aside, and having watched a few, there's not as much physical male sexuality on display. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's more internal for women, there's male strip clubs, movies, and an obvious demand on the boards for more pure physical which obviously isn't happening because conversations like this still exist.
Mainstream will jump on it? Yeah, tell that to minecraft players that have been playing for ages, and only recently has it been really copied by main streamers. Sure there's been knockoffs on the indie level, but it still clearly flies in the face of your argument.
Portal's popular, but it seems like it's the only game of it's kind outside of indie games.
Are you really relying on the "make your own" logic? Well, apparently you don't like my arguments, so why don't you make your own?
Lemme cut to the chase, that line of thinking won't work on me. It's really more of a hostile "shut up" sort of maneuver because most people who make that sort of argument don't understand what they're asking/demanding when such arguments are made.Why are you focusing on AAA games? There's room outside of AAA, obviously as it's being made, but again, it's just not common enough to make conversations like this go away.
a. That outfit is ridiculous. Seriously, who designed that thing? Why has the leather strap turned into a sentient phallic symbol which has nuzzled itself between her breasts? I can't get over just how BAD that looks.
b. I don't really approve of this costume because of the game that it's in. This isn't Dragon's Crown, outfits like that are just kind of distracting in fire-emblem (based on what I know about the series)
c. I consider the breasts a little more akin to the butt, just due to how much sexual emphasis we put on them (an emphasis that drawings like this are clearly contributing to). I mean, if you see a guy with a nice ass in full frame you won't feel like there's a dick in your face, but you'll sense the intended sexual energy in the image. That's the vibe I'm getting from this picture.
d. So we should probably have more dude butt, and we already seem to be heading in that direction.
b. I don't really approve of this costume because of the game that it's in. This isn't Dragon's Crown, outfits like that are just kind of distracting in fire-emblem (based on what I know about the series)
c. I consider the breasts a little more akin to the butt, just due to how much sexual emphasis we put on them (an emphasis that drawings like this are clearly contributing to). I mean, if you see a guy with a nice ass in full frame you won't feel like there's a dick in your face, but you'll sense the intended sexual energy in the image. That's the vibe I'm getting from this picture.
d. So we should probably have more dude butt, and we already seem to be heading in that direction.
You may be familiar with them, but not everyone is. I'm not trying to invalidate what you're saying, but do understand it, alone isn't going to win you any arguments here. Beating people over the head with that one piece of media won't do you many favors, IMO.ravenshrike said:I've been using romance novels as a touchstone because they're what I'm most familiar with having shelved them 3 days a week for 2 and a half years in high school. As for being less common, It's really hard to be more common than the standard soap seeing as the only two things on during the afternoons are those and female talk shows. Oh, and courtroom dramas so that makes 3 things. As for the other media, I did point out that the difference in manga vs american comics was due to a cultural difference in how it was consumed. Americans, and presumably Europeans, do not read serial magazines like the Japanese. Thus, the only exposure to comics is individual issues only a little bit larger than the serial in a magazine like SJ, or the bigger compendiums. This means it is a much geekier activity to read comics, and outside of the past 10-15 years geekery was anathema to the general female gestalt to a much greater degree than the male. Although presumably women are the reason Archie is still running. Not to mention that the format for American comics makes it MUCH more visual than even the most visual biased shonen manga.Rebel_Raven said:Well, first off, I suggest you take a moment to relax. It seems like you haven't read much of anything I wrote.ravenshrike said:
You're the one who's been basically, exclusively pointing out romance novels for one, for two I certainly haven't ignored a lot of the stuff you mentioned it because I MENTIONED they can cater to a diverse crowd, but it's not as common to the average person, which isn't helping your case. Seeing such in the west, in common media isn't common, maybe soaps aside, and having watched a few, there's not as much physical male sexuality on display. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's more internal for women, there's male strip clubs, movies, and an obvious demand on the boards for more pure physical which obviously isn't happening because conversations like this still exist.
Mainstream will jump on it? Yeah, tell that to minecraft players that have been playing for ages, and only recently has it been really copied by main streamers. Sure there's been knockoffs on the indie level, but it still clearly flies in the face of your argument.
Portal's popular, but it seems like it's the only game of it's kind outside of indie games.
Are you really relying on the "make your own" logic? Well, apparently you don't like my arguments, so why don't you make your own?
Why are you focusing on AAA games? There's room outside of AAA, obviously as it's being made, but again, it's just not common enough to make conversations like this go away.
As for male strip clubs, you'd be lucky if there was 5 female strip club for every male one in the US. It's probably closer to 10:1. Much larger male market.
Minecraft was bought by MS within 5 years of the game's PRE-ALPHA release. It was another two and a half years before it was out of beta. You don't get much bigger than that. There have been at LEAST 3 semi-successful knockoffs that I know of in the interim. Hell the current survival games like Rust and Ark are arguably a spin-off of Minecraft's success. Minecraft is the Beatles of the building genre. Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, the fact that you consider 3-4 years for what is an effectively entirely new genre of games to be forever is flipping insane.
Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Tides of Nuemenara, Divinity:OS, hell, even that Double Fine game. All examples of people putting their money where their mouths were. The first four being projects that I backed. You think there's a market for YOUR brand of insanity instead of mine? Prove it. Other people already have. But trying to force developers to cater to you with no real evidence of support? Fuck that noise. The world owes you nothing. Quit acting like it does.
TV is probably going to be your strongest case here because you can generally flip through channels, or look at a guide, and find something interesting more than likely. It, however isn't going to be anywhere near a slam dunk for your case either since I'd say stuff aimed at guys, especially in terms of commercials landslide outweighs stuff aimed at women. I mean if a woman played by Sophia Vergara can be attained by a guy played by Ed Oniel (He's gotta be at least twice her age, if not 3 times IRL?) then that's saying something, IMO.
I gotta ask, though, what channels do you get that Soaps, and Courtroom TV is common? Especially in the afternoons? I get they might have dedicated channels, but I've been watching TV a very very long time. They aren't that common. At least not on my cable, and I imagine the channels are universal across the nation.
I'd imagine females having been pushed out of comics for so long is a societal boundary that's being broken down somewhat save for a loud mob of individual gatekeepers that actively fight comics catering to anyone else. The sort of people that tell people to shut up and stop trying to change things, or bully them out of the hobby. Ya know, "stop complaining," "go make your own," aka "we don't want you here."
A mentality that sorta baffles me in general, really. I'd think someone would want to share a common ground like that instead of running into women that want guys to "grow up" because they've been trained to hate videogames, and comic, and the sort.
As for being a cultural thing, I imagine that's changing, and clinging to the past of isolationism, and bigotry (You know the hostility towards PoCs, and women) isn't really going to help. It really does shine a bad light on the old school fans that are dismissive of female heroes just because they're female, or PoC because they're faced with someone that doesn't reflect the "majority."
Honestly, I'm seeing some change, some decent change in comics lately, and I hope it continues, not to force out the diehard fans of superman, and batman, and spiderman, etc., since they're not in any real danger of being gone for long, if at all, but to broaden horizons of others that want to be in the loop, and not be treated worse than newbs, or noobs because they don't fit the standard mold of a fan.
My point still stands, Male Strip Club exist. Magic Mike wasn't a figment of my imagination, either. There's a demand for raw physical allure by women regarding men. Honestly, women can be shallow as hell, and from what I gather it's getting harder and harder on the male dating scene because of the internet giving women better odds of finding a guy that's not repulsive.
Minecraft was around for a long long time, and became uber popular, but the formula was generally left untouched for most of it's existence where it gained it's massive popularity, which is my point. The only serious challenger IIRC was Terraria. You'd think something going viral, and being a somewhat simple formula would've made more waves than it did.
After it was released in 2009, well after, in fact, we saw the formula start to get used elsewhere. The lego crafting sort of thing.
3-4 years to latch on to something that's popular? Yeah, that's a long frikking time for videogames. Look at God of War, for instance, since it got similar games very very quickly, trying to cash in on the formula it popularized.
I don't think even knock off movies take 3-4 years.
The fact that the markets are changing is plenty of proof for me. We're seeing some more diversity, even though the sexualization of men, and women don't seem to be changing that much.
On a side note, I'm not trying to erase T&A. I'm just saying there's not equality in the sexualization of men, and women. The fear that anyone against sexualization, and/or looking for equality is out to take away the boobies is not universal.
Then again if equality means taking away T&A, I'd say that's saying something.
And here you are, calling me insane. For what? For saying that the industries are catering to more people, and more people want to be included? I'm gunna need you to elaborate on how I'm "insane" here.
You keep saying the world doesn't owe people anything, but you act like you want to control it, and keep it the way things were, and like you're the alpha, and omega. The world doesn't owe you anything either. You quit acting like it does, too.
People are free to seek change, and you aren't owed any more say than anyone else. Your opinions aren't more valuable, and you're the one effectively trying to shut people down like they owe you anything. No one owes you anything, especially not the world.
Frankly, it must be because dicks are kinda stupid looking. I mean, unerect dicks are pretty silly things, I find. Like goddamn sad elephant.
That's a huge assumption. I have heard of those networks, but haven't dwelled on them much. That isn't to say I haven't gone by them, and seen what was on. And I have seen recent soap operas because a coworker just -has- to watch them, a guy in fact. And that was around noon. that said, I've probably seen more Soap Operas than you, but I'm not going to hold that against you.ravenshrike said:Well considering you've apparently never heard of NBC, ABC, and CBS and so have never seen a soap opera in your life(course neither have I but I at least know what channels they're on), oh and Telemundo, and that you outright ignore romcoms and movies like The Notebook as satisfying the female equivalent itch, me mentioning anything other than books seems a rather moot point doesn't it?Rebel_Raven said:You may be familiar with them, but not everyone is. I'm not trying to invalidate what you're saying, but do understand it, alone isn't going to win you any arguments here. Beating people over the head with that one piece of media won't do you many favors, IMO.
TV is probably going to be your strongest case here because you can generally flip through channels, or look at a guide, and find something interesting more than likely. It, however isn't going to be anywhere near a slam dunk for your case either since I'd say stuff aimed at guys, especially in terms of commercials landslide outweighs stuff aimed at women. I mean if a woman played by Sophia Vergara can be attained by a guy played by Ed Oniel (He's gotta be at least twice her age, if not 3 times IRL?) then that's saying something, IMO.
I gotta ask, though, what channels do you get that Soaps, and Courtroom TV is common? Especially in the afternoons? I get they might have dedicated channels, but I've been watching TV a very very long time. They aren't that common. At least not on my cable, and I imagine the channels are universal across the nation.
I'd imagine females having been pushed out of comics for so long is a societal boundary that's being broken down somewhat save for a loud mob of individual gatekeepers that actively fight comics catering to anyone else. The sort of people that tell people to shut up and stop trying to change things, or bully them out of the hobby. Ya know, "stop complaining," "go make your own," aka "we don't want you here."
A mentality that sorta baffles me in general, really. I'd think someone would want to share a common ground like that instead of running into women that want guys to "grow up" because they've been trained to hate videogames, and comic, and the sort.
As for being a cultural thing, I imagine that's changing, and clinging to the past of isolationism, and bigotry (You know the hostility towards PoCs, and women) isn't really going to help. It really does shine a bad light on the old school fans that are dismissive of female heroes just because they're female, or PoC because they're faced with someone that doesn't reflect the "majority."
Honestly, I'm seeing some change, some decent change in comics lately, and I hope it continues, not to force out the diehard fans of superman, and batman, and spiderman, etc., since they're not in any real danger of being gone for long, if at all, but to broaden horizons of others that want to be in the loop, and not be treated worse than newbs, or noobs because they don't fit the standard mold of a fan.
My point still stands, Male Strip Club exist. Magic Mike wasn't a figment of my imagination, either. There's a demand for raw physical allure by women regarding men. Honestly, women can be shallow as hell, and from what I gather it's getting harder and harder on the male dating scene because of the internet giving women better odds of finding a guy that's not repulsive.
Minecraft was around for a long long time, and became uber popular, but the formula was generally left untouched for most of it's existence where it gained it's massive popularity, which is my point. The only serious challenger IIRC was Terraria. You'd think something going viral, and being a somewhat simple formula would've made more waves than it did.
After it was released in 2009, well after, in fact, we saw the formula start to get used elsewhere. The lego crafting sort of thing.
3-4 years to latch on to something that's popular? Yeah, that's a long frikking time for videogames. Look at God of War, for instance, since it got similar games very very quickly, trying to cash in on the formula it popularized.
I don't think even knock off movies take 3-4 years.
The fact that the markets are changing is plenty of proof for me. We're seeing some more diversity, even though the sexualization of men, and women don't seem to be changing that much.
On a side note, I'm not trying to erase T&A. I'm just saying there's not equality in the sexualization of men, and women. The fear that anyone against sexualization, and/or looking for equality is out to take away the boobies is not universal.
Then again if equality means taking away T&A, I'd say that's saying something.
And here you are, calling me insane. For what? For saying that the industries are catering to more people, and more people want to be included? I'm gunna need you to elaborate on how I'm "insane" here.
You keep saying the world doesn't owe people anything, but you act like you want to control it, and keep it the way things were, and like you're the alpha, and omega. The world doesn't owe you anything either. You quit acting like it does, too.
People are free to seek change, and you aren't owed any more say than anyone else. Your opinions aren't more valuable, and you're the one effectively trying to shut people down like they owe you anything. No one owes you anything, especially not the world.
Ah yes, pushed out of. Always amusing to see. More like, they were never in them anyway. Again, at the end of the day, money makes the world go round(especially given current copyrights of eternity minus a year, but that is a very different discussion) so what incentive do people have to make comics for girls? Outside of the utterly niche market that already exists of course. Which let's be frank, would be much larger if there was the demand you seem to be claiming. And webcomics as a separate thing, which because they're not beholden to TradPub and standard comic formatting or payment methods means they can explore in a lot more directions.
Congratulations, yes the existence of male strip clubs means that some women are more visual than others. Never claimed they weren't. Doesn't change the fact that the median woman is much less visual and much more emotionally sexually oriented than the median man. Again, money determines content on the market.
Minecraft didn't truly begin to take off in popularity until late in its beta period in 2011. Internet hype does not actual demand make. And I still find the fact that you think a period of 6 years, 3 and a half when you consider when the game actually became popular, as a long, long time to be utterly hilarious. As for LEGO crafting, those games have been around since 1999. LEGO inspired Minecraft, not the other way round. As for God of War, the fact that you think it was the originator if its trope is rather amusing. Rather, it was a mixture of DMC and Zelda combat slipped into a rather standard hack n slash. As hack n slash games already had a VERY large user base going all the way back to Gauntlet, there was very little risk for companies to copy. Not so with building games, which apart from the LEGO series had what... Dwarf Fortress? Maybe you could include Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts.
As for calling you insane, please reread the sentence. I am calling you insane only inasmuch as I am calling myself insane. This is known as hyperbole.
I don't want to control it, I just want people to try and stop forcing their views from the top down, because apart from the most egregious of harms, down that path lies madness.
I haven't seen guys strip down to their underwear for no real reason. I mean Old Spice commercials had more exposed skin than Rom Coms, and Soaps. My point was I've never really seen them deep in the afternoons, or evenings.
I've seen Rom Coms. It's not exactly common that a guy strips down to his skivvies for basically zero plot reason, rather just to draw attention to their anatomy, yet it's surprisingly common for women to do it.
I'm still not seeing much naked guy skin on TV, or movies that is done with no real frikking point aside from sexual fantasies aside from Old Spice commercials which are still aimed at guys, and I guess wives that might buy Old Spice for their man.
I'm not seeing padded groins, or people dressed like Jojo's Bizarre Adventures characters in mass media. Why male anatomy isn't paraded about, enhanced, and treated like a womans boobs, legs, or butt in mass media is the whole point here.
When it does happen it's pretty rare. The gap between when a woman's anatomy is paraded and when a guy's is is still huge.
Yet there was a time in history where men wore cod pieces, and size is still important to a guy these days, yet media never seems to focus on it quite as much as a woman's boobs, butt, or even legs.
What part of male anatomy is paraded about for no reason but for sexual gratification in media? Muscles don't quite fit the mold, you see, as in a story a guy's build is often significant to what they do. Guys with huge muscles are strong bruisers, guys that are slim are agile rogue sorts. Muscles mean more than butts, boobs, or legs on women in stories.
Yeah. Being pushed out of. There's a lot of women in assorted industries. They were, and are a part of them, actually. But there's people who don't want to see the demographics being catered to change inside, and out side of various industries. And lets be real, here, it's not unknown for a woman to be treated differently because she's a woman. Sometimes being treated differently is negative, and it gets excessive.
That "niche market" and I'm not talking web comics here, is growing, and gaining steam. A-Force, Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, Spiderwoman, Hellcat, Captain Marvel, Spider Gwen, Thor's recent arc, DC's push to be inclusive with a series, and toy line aimed squarely at girls, Jessica Jones, Supergirl, seeing a lot of female allies,and enemies for Flash, and Arrow. I'm seeing more female figures lining the shelves of the boy's aisle of toy stores in recent months than I have in years.
My point about the strip clubs is that what you insist isn't as absolute as you let on. Simply saying the average woman wants something deeper doesn't take away the fact that some women are about the physical, if not both. And even your idea of "average" might not be the reality of things. It's your experience with these matters, not everyone's.
6 years is over half a decade. Consoles have gone up a generation in less time than that. 3 and a half is almost a console generation.
I never said Minecraft inspired lego, I'm talking about the Lego like formula. What I'm driving at is that "the take a chunk of the world into your inventory to put it elsewhere to build stuff" theme pretty much started with minecraft in terms of popularity. Lego basically never touched the formula seeming to prefer to lego versions of popular properties, which is something of a mystery to me. They could have easily gone for the brass ring before Notch ever released Minecraft, but they didn't. Hell, they still haven't released a game on the minecraft formula. I've seen Minecraft themed Lego sets, but no game from lego in the style of minecraft.
As for Hack, and Slashes, like Dante's Inferno, and Darksiders, and Heavenly Sword, I've seen way more accusations that they ripped off God of War than DMC.
Yeah, thing is, people have been forcing their views from the top down for a very long time. Superman, and Lois Lane have been a straight couple for decades upon decades. Jean Grey with Professor X, Wolverine, and Cyclops. A straight married couple in the Doom Patrol. Tony Stark is a ladies man for sleeping around, but Black Widow's a slut kind of pushed agenda.
You see it as normal, maybe, but it's still a pushed agenda. We've been seeing straight relations at various levels in cartoons, Comics, tv, movies, and very little outside of that for a very long time. That's a pushed agenda. And people were behind that. No just in the industry, but people outside it.
People have been pushing from the top down so long that people overlook it because being straight and white has become the norm for so long that any variation is met with, well, frankly, people see variation, and divergence as attacks, and persecution.
Who says that anyone's being forced to do anything, anyhow? People complaining might be the excuse people who produce stuff needed to break free from the draconian notion that only one gender are deserving of some media? If they were forced, if they hated it, you'd think there'd be some backlash from the companies saying they don't want to do it. It's been awful quiet in that regard. Maybe they actually care?
How the heck are the little people bossing around big corporations? Maybe the big corporations want to add the niche to their profits? And I do mean add since they're not likely diverting things from what's making them money rather expanding, and adjusting to the times like a sensible company would.
Thing is, you're certainly acting like you want to control it. Especially in defending creator's rights to exclude a gender without consideration that maybe they don't want to exclude a gender by defending a culture that excludes genders, and frankly, is going the way of the dodo.
You talk like you want inclusiveness to be conditional. I.E. You don't get to ask for it, you gotta make it yourselves.
Well, if we're all insane here, you don't have to sling the word around. Seems rather hostile, honestly.
Were rather off topic, though, considering this thread's looking at why male characters don't pad their groins, or we don't see any focus on it, or have an equivalent to T&A in media.
...Hip guards, shoulder pads, bracers, and layered fabric/leather. Armoured as fuck. Layered cloth and leather, when done right, is renaissance kevlar. The linothorax project, linen curiasses, gambesons, etc, etc, etc. Hell, a lot of Samurai armor was made entirely out of leather and silk.Redryhno said:
Say it as many times as you like, you're still wrong.Redryhno said:
Buff coats, which are a thing that existed. "The coat provided some protection against swords and other edged weapons, however, the buff coat was ineffective against firearms, possibly excepting spent bullets. The buff coat was worn under armour, where it helped to cushion the wearer from chafing or bruising by the armour's edges, but it also was worn as an alternative to wearing metallic armour."Redryhno said:
Animu characters, presumably. You're the only one arguing "realism" here. Otherwise I'd be complaining that none of them are wearing helmets, aka: the single most important piece of armor for soldiers at all times.Redryhno said:
I'm counting three "layers" before Plate. Grey cloth, white (probably thick linen or silk), and magenta buff coat. Welcome to what armor looks like.Redryhno said:
Cloth, thick cloth, leather. Short of chain or full plate, that's as good as it gets. Besides, it's animu.Redryhno said:
Did Fire Emblem change recently? I thought the conceit was that each "unit" was a formation of troops and it's leading general. Are these "Armies" really so small as to almost not count as street gangs? If it's a formation of troops, they fire in the general area of the enemy, making Carmilla fly through a hail of arrows. Which she catches with her lungs, because as large as her boobs are, they ain't stopping those.Redryhno said:
How many pixels does the tit window give a sprite?Redryhno said:
Joke aside, yeah, it's a videogame. A videogame that doesn't usually go full Carmilla. I mean, c'mon. She's got a metal bikini bottom that doesn't connect to her gut protection, plus the tit arrow catcher, plus the bare inner thighs, plus approximately zero non-flesh padding. And she goes into battle to stab things. Brilliant. It lacks verisimilitude. The appearance of being possibly real.
I mean, it'd be like if Fire Emblem went
Women tend not to be as visual as men in their sexual interests in certain regards, sure. In general there isn't an equivalent of "just show boobs and ass" that will automatically work for women. That's why the presentation is even more important, and why just having a shirtless guy show on screen won't do it without fail. If you look at any of the genres that you mentioned, yaoi, bishounen, etc... there's a huge emphasis on presentation and subtle details.ravenshrike said:
As Revnak already mentioned, just the existence of those genres shows that there is a demand for visual storytelling. Also, don't pretend that we can't (and don't) handle the non-visual stuff in video games. There's a plethora of games that are based around you having intimate relationships with characters in it. The writing is in general shitty, but as Twilight and 50 Shades indicates, you don't need any quality of writing to make something sexually appealing to a demographic as long you have the right elements. It's probably the equivalent of Dragon's Crown in subtlety and execution of its sexualization.
If you want to complain about some sort of media, why don't you just revolutionize the games industry instead?ravenshrike said:
Ho boy. Haven't seen this argument in a while. So, let's say I have problems (Not necessarily the same ones) with trends in novels, video games, movies, TV shows, art and music. Should I just shut up and address my grievances by becoming wildly successful in every single facet of media that I have an issue with? It'd pretty much require devoting your life to it for just one.
You can't just get up one day and decide to make a game. You need money, you need skills, and you need people.
This criticism is supposed to apply to anyone, regardless of their education, so chances are you don't have any of the relevant skills. So you need to throw away whatever sort of schooling and skills you have and pick up totally new ones. Let's start with something like programming.
Learning how to program from scratch takes a long time. Learning how to program from scratch, learning how to ship a project on multiple different platforms without it breaking with the slightest differences and understanding the ins and outs of programming languages enough to effectively optimize is a very, very long endeavor. I've heard people say that you don't truly understand C++ until you've been programming in it for a decade. And that's just for one of the many skills required to make a game (Animating, modelling, texturing, sound design). Let's even go and assume that you happen to be good at programming/modelling/animating. Not everyone is able to pick up every skill, but gosh darnnit, evidently you have to if you want anything to change in media.
So, you're not feasibly going to be able to do all of this yourself, so you're going to need money. You mention Kickstarter, but you have an almost nil chance of having a successful Kickstarter campaign if you don't have anything to show initially. So you need enough money to hire people for a gameplay prototype (As well as support yourself because you've decided to upend your entire life to fix an issue you have with video games). People are very expensive, so you better have a lot of money to do this. That being said, most people don't have that kind of money just to throw around.
Even if you do make your project, as you mentioned, it's easier than ever to make video games. The market is absolutely flooded with shovelware. This is your first game, so you've probably caught a lot of corners, done a number of things very poorly, and your game isn't going to stick out because of its technical merits on its own. It's going to be ugly, it's going to be buggy, but hey, maybe there's a great idea in there that makes it all worth it. You need to find some way to stick your game out among those thousands of other shitty games that look just like yours on the surface, so that people will actually play it. Either you are incredibly lucky, or you spend a lot of money on advertising, which is going to be difficult, because you're competing for advertising space with companies worth millions to billions of dollars.
If you don't have the money, and/or the luck doesn't turn your way, you've just thrown away years of your life and a huge amount of money into a project where you're not even close to breaking even on. Most games lose money. Most games backed by companies with qualified people who've had years of experience in the industry lose money.
Or you could, you know, skip all that, and voice your grievance. Like everyone else does, on every other subject of complaint. It's just when that complaint is related to women and games where you should shut up and fix the industry yourself. If enough people voice their grievances, people will see that there's a demand. Look at the complaints about the Xbox One. People had problems, they vocalized their problems, and Microsoft listened. Everyone didn't have to make their own game console in retaliation. Sure, you're not going to change the industry all by lonesome, but your chances of doing that aren't all that great in the first place.
Considering the average teenaged girls response to boy bands and male singers I don't see how anyone thinks that women don't enjoy physical stimulation. But the thing is, we pick on teenaged girls mercilessly for it. We ridicule them for it. We go out of our way,in America at least, to always bring up how bad or shallow the media they consume is. And yeah, it is bad sometimes. Twilight is horribly written. Justin Bieber is a horrid human being. But so what? If a teenaged boy has chosen a model or popstar to drool over we leave him alone. We don't rag on him for how shallow he's being. Folks don't write editorials about it like its some phenomenon. And its not just now, it's been like this forever. Folks flipped out over Backstreet Boys and NSync and the female attention they got. Folks flipped out over the Beetles and the female attention they got. And by the time girls become women they learn how to not be so shallow. That is a good thing in a way, but they also learn shame. Shame for something that is perfectly natural and just fine within limits.
I re-evaluated the way I went about looking at this, and I think you are also right; men's physique is quite easily the most important factor of attractiveness for almost everyone who finds men attractive. I guess the only distinction I thought I'd make is how effective the accessorization of a model is, based on their gender and the orientation of the audience.Areloch said:
It's entirely a conjecture of mine, I admit, but I can't help but notice that even among highly-sexualized male figures, there more often than not tends to be those "implied traits" of prestige, while similar features seasoned onto female figures just don't have the same impact.
So, a question for those men and women out there who find the cast of Free appealing: how influential are those team-uniform speedos in making those characters more or less attractive, and do you think that exact same variable would effect a similar cast of female characters the exact same way? This isn't a rhetorical question, I seriously want to know if you think it would have the same impact (as a straight guy, I don't want to presume the alluring features of sexualized men to gays and straight women).
You really don't read what people are saying do you? You just take what you can tear apart and make it fit what you want.altnameJag said:
And you're the one that started in on the designs with them not being realistic enough dude...so maybe quit trying to spin and own up to your stuff? The only reason I brought realism up is how outrageously stupid even the most conservative of designs in Fire Emblem are. And how completely stupid it is to try to assign realism to a game series that honestly has never tried to depict actual battles to begin with. It's been joked as being a matchmaking simulator with rpg elements from within the community for years for a reason. And the designs are much like any multiplayer PvP game, to easily distinguish each cahracter from another and let their personality show a bit through said designs.
Like seriously, look at Awakenings, the majority of the named villains are about two belts away from being that last pic you're saying would be weird if it was there. And ignoring them, we've also got Vaike, Basilio, Gaiur, Yarne, Donnel, and Gregor and many others. All of them are about as strangely armored as Camilla. Hell, Gregor is essentially just Titania with a sword and with a bit less extra weight flying around him whenever he moves. And he's not really all that armored, I think I remember him being some kind of drunk as well, I can't remember.
My entire point, that you again somehow missed despite me making a point in big bold letters and the last paragraph, is that it's not just the females that have stupid designs, it's nearly EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAMES. So quit acting like it.
Hell, I'll even agree with you on a point that it's gotten very anime-ish with their tropes the last few years, but I still love it(whether despite or because of I don't know exactly). The games are still good and I'm looking forward to Fates(or is it actually Awakening? I forget) that's coming out in a couple months. Whether you are or not, I don't know, just that I'm sorta getting sick of people saying one thing and then being told something they didn't say is what they believe. Especially when it comes to stupid designs in games.