Why fictional countries shows us our ignorance

[Queen Michael]

If you've read or seen The Princess Diaries, then you know it's about a young girl who turns out to be the princess of a small European country called Genovia.

And in the DC universe, there's a small Arab nation called Qurac. It's located between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

And in other works where fictional countries are used, one thing is a given: They aren't located in North America. The reason is obvious. If they were located anywhere in North America, especially in territory that's US territory in real life. See, if a fictional country is located in Europe or Africa, then the majority of the readers/players/viewers won't know anything about the area where it's located.

Sure, Italian people who see a map with Genovia right between France and Italy would probably comment "But that's not possible! Genovia is located on the spot where we have the historical city of Paperinik! If Genovia is located there, then it means that our entire history must be rewritten!" But nobody who's not Italian or French knows enough about the geography of those countries to see why there couldn't be a smaller country between them. The same thing goes for Qurac.

That's why these fictional countries are never located in territory that belongs to the USA in the real world -- US people would notice how it didn't make sense. Wherever you put the fictional country, there'd be people who lived there for real and wondered what the Sam Hill s foreign country was doing in their backyard. So that's why fictional countries are always located in a place Americans don't know much about -- that way the audience won't know how little sense it makes to have a fictional country there and how different things would be if there was another country there.

Oh, and just to be clear: I'm not talking about alternative history works, or works that speculate in what would happen if a civil war broke out in today's USA (like the comic book DMZ) and so on. What I'm talking about is only stories that are supposed to take place in the real world that you and I live in.

tl;dr: The reason writers can invent a fictional country and even give it a location on the map is the fact that the audience don't know anything about what's supposed to be there.

EDIT: Originally, I made a typo and said that Genovia is located between Spain and Italy. That's been corrected now.

 

[Realitycrash]

Okey. Sure. And? Where would YOU put them, unless you want to invent a whole new continent/island/meteor orbiting earth?
Fictional history is just that: Fictional. We are allowed to change things.

 

[senordesol]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The California Republic is a fictional country; that also exists in the Continental US.

'Revolution' split the US into 6 countries. And 'Jericho' split it into 3.

So...I'm sorry...you are completely wrong.

 

[Ryotknife]

http://codegeass.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Britannian_Empire

ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!

Problem with putting a nation in the Western Hemisphere is that it would look like another state or colony, neither of which is very impressive or interesting unless the nation formed a huge bloc.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, yes.

I thought this was going to be about how fictional countries reveal ignorance of the area they are situated in, by revealing common stereotypes or something, and how this shows how we think of the real countries in the area.

But if the stereotype is "countries exist in Africa", I don't think that's really that unjustified.

 

[JoJo]

Sure, Italian people who see a map with Genovia right between Spain and Italy would probably comment "But that's not possible! Genovia is located on the spot where we have the historical city of Paperinik! If Genovia is located there, then it means that our entire history must be rewritten!" But nobody who's not Italian or SPanish knows enough about the geography of those countries to see why there couldn't be a smaller country between them. The same thing goes for Qurac.

The question I'm more curious about is how there could be a country right between Spain and Italy when the two don't even share a border. Same for Saudi Arabia and Iran actually, unless Qurac lies in the Persian Gulf.


A quick Google search answered my question however, apparently Genovia is situated between France and either Spain or Italy, depending on whether you're referring to the film or book. Qurac is also between Iraq and Kuwait rather than Saudi Arabia and Iran. I don't know really when I'm going with this, maybe this is an unintended boost to your argument about U.S. ignorance of foreign geography? :-D

Edit: Actually, I take back the part about Qurac since further research indicates it's location seems to vary between sources, sometimes it's between Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf, or west of Iraq apparently 0.o

 

[IndomitableSam]

Eh... most people don't know any geography well. Ask Americans where Canada is and a lot of them won't know. Some Americans thing Alaska is situated right beside Hawaii inside a little box off to the left of the mainland US.

I'm Canadian and I'd probably take a while to name all 50 States and might even miss a few or name cities instead. Hell, if you put me on the spot, it'd take me a while to put the Canadian maritimes in order from east-west or west-east, and we only have 10 provinces and 3 territories.

I'm sure other countries media places random countires in North America or South America. Hell, most people don't even know that there are some islands in Gulf of St Lawrence(which is in the middle of some provinces) that are French. As in, they are part of France. People travel to them, whip out a passport, buy French cheese and wine for cheap, and then go back home.

I can't name all the countries in South America, either. If someone made one up, I might actually believe them if I wasn't thinking about it. Hell, I still usually think places like Guyana and Suriname are in the south pacific.

Ever notice how in most movies, American or Japanese, or French or whatever... that Canada doesn't exist? Especially in disaster movies... we simply just aren't on the maps of world devastation or aren't mentioned at all? It's not like we're one of the leading countries in the world, but people forget we exist. Or think you can take a day trip from Toronto to Vancouver.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The Man in the High Castle?

 

[senordesol]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The Man in the High Castle?

...And apparently now I have to read another one.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The Man in the High Castle?

...And apparently now I have to read another one.

It's about Germany and Japan winning WWII and splitting the US between themselves while leaving a neutral "buffer zone" (i.e. American mid-west) in between. By Philip K. Dick. It's very good!

 

[Thaluikhain]

Some Americans thing Alaska is situated right beside Hawaii inside a little box off to the left of the mainland US.

Bwahahaha.

Yeah, I can believe that.

On a related note:

Spoiler

 

[Queen Michael]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The California Republic is a fictional country; that also exists in the Continental US.

'Revolution' split the US into 6 countries. And 'Jericho' split it into 3.

So...I'm sorry...you are completely wrong.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. As far as I can tell, the example you mention are all from stories that want to make it clear that they take place in an alternate history. What I'm talking about is stories like The Princess Diaries and action stories that take place in some unknown African nation and so on; in short the kind of work that is supposed to take place in the same world that we live in.

 

[Muspelheim]

I'm fine with fictional countries. Even if I know what is actually there. All that really matters is that they are written like real, functional nations, and not some shallow theme park of a country. If it's handled well, I'll accept the creative license and come aboard.

Glory to Arstotzka.

<youtube=_1Zw-dzJ5vw>

 

[senordesol]

Bullshit. I've read a few books where there was a fictional 'victorious' confederacy. It comprised half of the US.

The California Republic is a fictional country; that also exists in the Continental US.

'Revolution' split the US into 6 countries. And 'Jericho' split it into 3.

So...I'm sorry...you are completely wrong.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. As far as I can tell, the example you mention are all from stories that want to make it clear that they take place in an alternate history. What I'm talking about is stories like The Princess Diaries and action stories that take place in some unknown African nation and so on; in short the kind of work that is supposed to take place in the same world that we live in.

Alright. Consider this. In North America there are 23 countries, but most of them are shoved into the very southern tip or are off-shore. For the sake of most conversations; North America is 3 countries: Canada, USA, and Mexico. As such, when you need to make a fictional locale in NA, you make it a city or a State -not a country (Bludhaven, Los Santos, Central City, etc.)

Europe and Africa have quite different geographies and histories. Europe has 50 countries of varying cultural identities and histories. You've got Monarchy-in-name-only states, former Soviet satellites, nations like the Czech Republic and Slovakia which used to just be Czechoslovakia. So creating a fictional nation in such a climate is not really 'ignorance'. It's simply a device used to convey an idea (where otherwise it would be a commentary on an actual country). Gotham, for example, could have just been called Detroit -but what was more important was the idea of a city so crippled by crime that it needed a Dark Knight, not so much the actual city itself.

So say you wanted to create an issue in a former Soviet satellite, are you actually going to set it in Estonia or Latvia? Do so, and you might raise confusing confusing commentaries on that nation in particular -rather than focusing simply on the idea you're trying to convey.

 

[Queen Michael]

So say you wanted to create an issue in a former Soviet satellite, are you actually going to set it in Estonia or Latvia?

Interesting thought, but the thing is this: Places like Genovia are still located in a real country, but when we watch the movie we agree to pretend that they're not so that we can enjoy the story. We still know that the place where Genovia is does actualy belong to Italy (or possibly France), so my point is that while they do take place in fictional countries, and that way don't comment on real world places, they take place on land that exists in real life (instead of islands or new parts of an existing continent) and thus anybody who knows the area will wonder why the italian city of Paperinik is now Genovian territory.

 

[Muspelheim]

So say you wanted to create an issue in a former Soviet satellite, are you actually going to set it in Estonia or Latvia?

Interesting thought, but the thing is this: Places like Genovia are still located in a real country, but when we watch the movie we agree to pretend that they're not so that we can enjoy the story. We still know that the place where Genovia is does actualy belong to Italy (or possibly France), so my point is that while they do take place in fictional countries, and that way don't comment on real world places, they take place on land that exists in real life (instead of islands or new parts of an existing continent) and thus anybody who knows the area will wonder why the italian city of Paperinik is now Genovian territory.

They might wonder for a while. But it's fiction, and as long as it's decently written, the logical leap of "Alright, it's a made-up country in this universe" won't be too hard to make. As long as the fictional country based on theirs isn't portrayed very poorly, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

 

[senordesol]

So say you wanted to create an issue in a former Soviet satellite, are you actually going to set it in Estonia or Latvia?

Interesting thought, but the thing is this: Places like Genovia are still located in a real country, but when we watch the movie we agree to pretend that they're not so that we can enjoy the story. We still know that the place where Genovia is does actualy belong to Italy (or possibly France), so my point is that while they do take place in fictional countries, and that way don't comment on real world places, they take place on land that exists in real life (instead of islands or new parts of an existing continent) and thus anybody who knows the area will wonder why the italian city of Paperinik is now Genovian territory.

They might wonder for a while. But it's fiction, and as long as it's decently written, the logical leap of "Alright, it's a made-up country in this universe" won't be too hard to make. As long as the fictional country based on theirs isn't portrayed very poorly, I doubt anyone would have a problem.

What he said.

Again, it's just a narrative device. For Genovia (I assume, haven't seen the movie) it serves the purpose of a very tiny but somewhat wealthy European monarchy -that's all it needs to be. By creating a fictional country you can do pretty much whatever you want with it without offending anybody (as there are no Genovians to offend). And unless the city of Paperinik is of some critical narrative importance; its location is not super critical.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Ever notice how in most movies, American or Japanese, or French or whatever... that Canada doesn't exist? Especially in disaster movies... we simply just aren't on the maps of world devastation or aren't mentioned at all? It's not like we're one of the leading countries in the world, but people forget we exist. Or think you can take a day trip from Toronto to Vancouver.

This is one thing that bugged me in Pacific Rim. The first Jaeger to take down a Kaiju was called Brawler Yukon. So I thought "Sweet! Canada not only has a giant robot, but we get the first kill!"

Turns out that Brawler Yukon was an American Jaeger, and Canada doesn't actually have any. What the hell? They can launch Jaegers from Anchorage but not from Yukon?

 

[EternallyBored]

I think you may be confused about why people do this, its not out of ignorance, its usually done to avoid offending a real life country while maintaining the creative freedom to portray a fictional land with a European, African, etc. cultural base. We do this with North America too, but it tends to be cities instead of countries, writers don't want to set superman or the Simpsons in a clearly defined American city, so they invent Metropolis and Springfield so they can make both a pastiche of American cultural values and aesthetics that can be changed out at will, depending on how they want to tell the story.

For your Princess Diary example, they made it a European country because they wanted the character to be royalty and white, without creating some really awkward questions, Europe is the only continent you can place such a country. Using real countries doesn't really work in such a specific example because then your either attaching a fictional character to a real family that's still around today, which seems kind of insensitive, or your attaching a fake royal family to a real country, which can come off as a little offensive if your not careful. In the comics this practice is there to easily attach fantastic scenarios to geographical regions. Putting Doctor Doom in charge of a real European country would tread close to political commentary since comics tend to be set in modern day times rather than alternate history timelines that make mixing up countries easier.

Size is also part of the reason that most fake locations in North America are cities rather than countries. In Europe you've got dozens of small countries in close proximity to each other, some countries can border quite a few other countries within less than a 100 miles of each other. A good 8 hour drive in a straight line in Europe can take you through 4-5 different countries, an 8 hour drive in a straight line in the U.S. can be done without ever leaving some of the larger states. Without breaking up the U.S. or Canada alternate history style, inserting something like Genovia between the U.S. and Canada is like putting a flea between two Elephants, it would basically be a single dot stuck between two oceans of power and cultural influence. Same problem with stand-in enemy countries like Qutar, or Latveria, sticking a small hostile country right next door to the worlds largest military force and an ally with staggering amounts of raw resources as well as a first-world military in its own right, is a recipe for the shortest conflict in the history of fiction.

Short version: It's not ignorance, its an effort to have modern settings without offending real countries, as well as a function of the continent's smaller country size preventing the same from happening to North America without breaking up one or both of the two supersized countries on the continent.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Oh you think that's bad? Imagine when people are convinced in something completely opposite, convinced that real country is fictional. Thanks Borat.