Why I think the "friend zone" is a load of crap.

[Macgyvercas]

Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.

Okay, this...this here. I HATE it when people do that. I don't get subtle hints very well, so I prefer people to be frank. If someone doesn't like me in that way, they should just tell me flat out, no sugar-coating, no holds barred. Yeah, it'll hurt, but I'll get over it. I always do.

Of course, I really don't have to worry about that in the foreseeable future, since I have a wonderful girlfriend who adores me (and I think she's amazing).

 

[DanDeFool]

Spoiler

If you've been on the Internet for more than a few hours, I'm sure you've probably heard something about this mysterious "friend zone" so many guys apparently get trapped in. If you haven't, the basic theory is this: If you are friends with a girl you like, she will not notice or consider your interest because you are friends. In her mind, you are a friend and ONLY a friend, never to be considered as anything else. There's even a meme based on the theory, Friend Zone Fiona [http://www.quickmeme.com/Friendzone-Fiona/oldest/5/?upcoming] (a bit of adult language in there, look out).

As a female, and having spent most of my life around a LOT of females who have been in a LOT of relationships (most of them in high school, mind) I find this theory quite baffling. I mean usually the stereotypes about guys and girls and relationships are based in SOME sort of logic or plausible event, but this is utter nonsense. And I think I've figured why. The way I see it, the friend zone is based on three misconceptions about women and relationships.

1. ANY girl you like will like you back if given the opportunity.

The concept of the "friend zone" is based on the situation of a guy likes a girl but she doesn't seem to be reciprocating. Meaning, the guy is running on the assumption that the girl does like him, she just hasn't realized it yet. Guys, I have some bad news for you. Just because you like a girl, it doesn't mean she's going to like you back. I don't care how well you know her, I don't care how well she knows you, I don't care how much you think you were made for each other. That's just not how it works. Relationships are a two way street--she has to like you just as much as you like her. And, believe it or not, it is very possible for you to be head over heels for someone, and they be totally disinterested. Trust me, that's the short version of the all stories of my crushes in high school, and I've seen many a friend join me in it. That's probably why they're called "crushes."

2. Girls do not have the ability to view friends as potential boyfriends.

There's a book by a guy named Chad Eastham, and in it he gave what I think is about the most accurate comparison of girl and guy's minds. Guys are like waffles. Everything in their mind is in totally separate compartment from all the other parts. This is why guys are often better at not being emotionally attached about sex than women are. Their sex drive and their desire for a single, dedicated mate are quite detached from each other (not always, and I realize that's broad, but compared to most women you have to admit most guys just do that better).

Now, the mind of a girl is more like spaghetti. Everything is all mixed and intermingled, one thing leading to the next and another and another thing. This is why girls tend to multitask better, can talk about a million things for hours on end, and have no problem continuing such conversations into the bathroom and back. "Bathroom? Whatever, it's just a more private place to chat!" There's less of a barrier there. Peeing and talking just isn't that big of a deal. There's no barrier (though being able to use stalls does help that, I suppose).

So in reality, girls are actually better at this than guys. Better at not putting things in such strict, separated boxes. Trust me: If she's available, she knows you, and she has the slightest inkling she might like you, then she's considered you as a possible date. The only thing that could keep her from thinking that is if she thinks you're not available (and even then that may not be a problem for her).

Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.

3. Relationships cannot sprout from friendships.

A lot of relationship threads pass through these forums, and one thing I see a lot of is this terminal fear of making friends with a girl before asking her out, all because of this mythical friend zone. But, then they run into trouble because asking out a girl who you're a total stranger to is rather creepy on her end. I am on the complete opposite spectrum of that friendship theory. I feel like the best relationships come from friendships. Honestly, I don't know if I'd want to date someone if I wasn't friends with them first. My brother and sister in law started out as friends. Now they've been together for more than 10 years, been married 3 of those years, and are about to build a house on some land they just bought.

And my first boyfriend started out as a friend. We met each other in October of that year, I realized I liked him around February, and around April he caught on and we got together. It didn't work out, but we had fun and left on friendly terms. But between February and April, there was a time when I guess you could say I was "friend zoned." We were going to see a movie with some friends, and he mentioned he was going to have trouble explaining to his parents that he was going to see a movie with a friend who was a girl, but not a girlfriend. Ouch, that stung. But I kept at him, finally made him aware of my feelings, and then he started chasing me back down. But, he didn't start making moves until he knew I liked him. And I understood that. He was a computer science major, not a psychic. And neither are women. If you've been working on a friend for a while and you're getting no response, just find a quiet place and outright tell her. I assure you, that is the fastest way to find out if there's going to be any reciprocation.

So in short, I feel like this "friend zone" is nothing more the invention of insecure guys who either don't understand how relationships work, or can't get up the gumption to get up and do something about the girl they are pining over. There may be situations similar to it, but it's not inescapable, and it is definitely not her fault. And I think that's the other thing that gets on my nerves about this--it shifts all the blame to the girl. It's not that the guy hasn't properly shown her he's interested, or even that it's totally out of his hands because he's just not her type. No, it's that she just isn't giving him a chance and she just can't see how perfect they are for each other. So please, cut it out. No more friend zones. If you like a girl, then do something about it. If she doesn't reciprocate, then just pack up and move on. There are way too many fish in the sea to get discouraged, and there is nothing wrong [with having friends

.

You make some good points. I trend to agree that the alleged phenomenon of the "friend zone" has more to do with men not getting the message that a girl isn't interested in them, and not having the wherewithal to give up on something they want and move on. I think David DeAngelo explained it best: if you interact with a woman long enough for her to form an opinion about you, and she does not feel (note the distinction; it's feel, not think) attracted to you, then there's nothing you can do about it (within reason, anyway; even DD doesn't think it's impossible, but in his experience he argues it's "about as close to impossible as I like to believe things can be")

 

[Doclector]

Rejection f***ing hurts.

Deal with it. Preferably without bitching about it in friendzone threads on this forum.

That doesn't help either. Am I blaming women? No. I blame myself. Sure, some people do, but that doesn't mean you judge everyone by their problems.

But it does help. When you pull yourself together and learn to accept rejection, it really really really helps. And once you learn how to deal with rejection, I am confident you wont be rejected as often either.

Thing is, that's never that easy, is it? How are you supposed to ignore the lifelong lesson that you have to learn from your mistakes, lest you end up tearing yourself apart to find a fault which isn't there, or worst, can't be fixed. Although I'll admit, there's a chance that could work...Or I'll just forget that me trying that particular path always ends in failure, no exceptions, and thus I'll just waste time and effort that could be applied to being, y'know, happy and productive.

That's like putting everyone trying to stop smoking in a support group, it ain't gonna help everyone.

....The fuck? No, its not going to help everyone, but it will help the majority of people. You know, it is a stop smoking group that helps smokers who want to stop smoking stop smoking.

Fucking terrible analogy.

Sorry, but there's only so much time and effort I'll put into such things.

 

[DanDeFool]

Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.

Okay, this...this here. I HATE it when people do that. I don't get subtle hints very well, so I prefer people to be frank. If someone doesn't like me in that way, they should just tell me flat out, no sugar-coating, no holds barred. Yeah, it'll hurt, but I'll get over it. I always do.

Of course, I really don't have to worry about that in the foreseeable future, since I have a wonderful girlfriend who adores me (and I think she's amazing).

I hear this is a pretty common complaint. It could be because people tend to be conflict-averse in these types of situations, or because men and women have different communication styles that don't automatically mesh. For those that aren't in a relationship, be aware that women may communicate in more subtle ways than you're used to, dropping hints and using body language rather than being frank and open.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

To be honest I'm surprised a user who has been here as long as you couldn't think to use the search bar [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.364603-Can-we-talk-about-the-friend-zone-and-nice-guys-for-a-moment?page=1]. I just searched friend zone it is about the fourth entry. Then every entry after that and on the first page no less, you didn't even have to change the search page.

I don't think 20 days(since inception) after a thread that lasted 19 pages to end a week ago is enough to warrant a new thread on the subject. Especially, you know since this one of those ridiculously overdone, drawn out and flame bait topic that shows up here.

OT: Yes this is obvious to a degree and if people don't realise that through trial and error well then it is their own fault. There are more than enough tropes, memes and jokes on the subject that people should know that the friendship first route does not work in a broad sense.

Also some girls don't help themselves with actually saying stuff like what is spouted in the meme and only tends to inflame the situation.

Now like penises and circumcision can we please as a forum move on from these topics? Yes I understand I am not really helping by posting and promoting this thread but this is the last friend zone thread I bother with. More because of there was one that just end a day and one week ago.

 

[KingHodor]

Is there a word for being double-friendzoned?
There was this girl I liked, and yeah, I never really worked up the courage to tell her how I felt (partially because my crush actually evolved from friendly feelings over time... I don't remember having been instantly attracted to her physical form... but yeah, most cause I'm a chickenshit).
Anyway, I sloooowly tried to get closer to her, thinking that even if she didn't reciprocate my feelings, I was thoroughly enjoying the time we spent together, broadening my horizons and all, so I thought I might as well be the best friend I can be.

That is, until her ex showed up again. Now, the problem here wasn't that they were getting together again, because that would have been romantic rejection, and yeah, that would have been something I could've handled because I'm kind of used to it. No, the moment that caused my heart to start cracking was when she told me her ex (who, according to everyone around her, was clearly busting his ass to win her back romantically) now was her best friend, at which point I also realized why she didn't seem too excited about having me back when I got released from a hospital stay at that time - I'd simply been pushed into obsolescence. Also, I guess it was kind of like having a mirror held in front of your face and realizing the futility of your quest.

So yeah - the "friendzone" wasn't that bad of a place to be, but I should've remembered that there are two ways to leave it - the improbable "let's date"-exit and the much more likely "she telling you that she's found a better friend"-exit.

 

[CrazyJew]

*shrug* For me it's the opposite problem. If I build a friendship, I am hesitant. But for me "friendzoning" isn't a problem at all. For me it's "Unrequited Love Switcheroo" and "Crazy Indecisive *****" Syndromes.

 

[Dastardly]

So in short, I feel like this "friend zone" is nothing more the invention of insecure guys who either don't understand how relationships work, or can't get up the gumption to get up and do something about the girl they are pining over.

I'll have to disagree on this. The "friend zone" is the invention of guys that don't understand how people work, and they're too busy trying to do something about the girl they are pining over.

See, they think it's a fair game. If you follow the rules and do the right moves, you win. Games work that way. Some jobs work that way. Movies work that way. Every awkward-shy-guy-with-a-heart-of-gold gets issued his dream girl at the end of the movie just by being himself.

So, the problem with these guys (and the so-called "Nice Guys") is that they don't think the woman has a vote. "I did the right moves, I followed the hint guide, I said the romantic things, you should be mine by now!"

And, of course, the other side of the problem is the girl. Instead of just saying, "I'm just not attracted to you at all," and making it a clear, "No," she tries to give reasons. And what she just did, unfortunately, is clarify the rules of the Game. By presenting obstacles ("I'm focusing on work/school right now," or "I'm getting over someone," or "I just like guys that are a little more athletic," or whatever else), she's turning "no" into "not yet," and giving him a checklist of things to fix, and then he can win. At least, that's how it looks from the outside.

The "friend zone" is created because neither side is communicating effectively with the other. The guy is trying to beat the game and win the girl, and the girl is trying to let the guy down easy by (inadvertently) giving him false hope. Now, some guys are malicious about gaming, just like some girls are intentionally trying to keep guys "on the hook," but most of the time it's all accidental.

So, basically:

Guys: Say what you want. Ask a direct question, and accept whatever answer you get. If you don't want to hear "No," then don't ask, and don't complain. Just stay a friend. If you're putting more into the friendship than she is, it's an unhealthy friendship anyway -- why would the relationship be any different? And if you're just putting more into the friendship to win her over, consider how unhealthy and misleading that is, too.

Girls: Answer directly, but not specifically. Don't tell the guy it's because you don't like his hair, because then he'll just change his hair and come back expecting a yes. Just say, "Nope. I'm just not attracted to you. Sorry." Don't even add the "We can still be friends" part, because that either will or won't happen on its own. It's not about hurting feelings. You're not saying anything mean. You're not obligated to be attracted to everyone. It's about making sure your answer is clear and final.

 

[MammothBlade]

Well, this provides an interesting perspective. Yet only girls can get blue waffle. >_>

 

[bojackx]

3. Relationships cannot sprout from friendships.

Umm... wrong? Yes, wrong.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Interesting topic, although as has been said it's not like there's not a gazillion of them. But what's done is done and personally I don't much care how many there are. If it's a topic worth discussing, that's fine by me. Plus who's gonna dig through 20 pages to try and formulate a reply that might actually be read and discussed? Anyway...

While I understand what the OP, and others, are trying to say when they advocate simply biting the proverbial bullet and just asking a girl (or guy) out, I think there's something that's not being taken into account here. Namely the social environment we all share. There's a lot of fallacies that a guy who has little dating experience has to contend with. Especially if what experience he has had has been negative or ended in failure. But the real question is always: which ones are genuine fallacies? Is having a pick-up line really horrible and cliche? Is there such a thing as "game"? Does the friend approach actually work? Is there really a possibility that someone can see past how I look to who I am? Or do I really have to obsess about how I look to achieve maximum chances at success? There are so many conflicting and confusing portrayals of love, sex, and dating in the world that for someone who is just entering the arena or has little experience it's very confusing.

Obviously nothing is clearly a right answer because everyone is different. But the platitudes and tired responses that people give to you when you're looking for answers are ultimately useless. You've heard them before, you KNOW them. Much of what's said here and in other relationship-oriented advice is mostly common-sense. Something that, while not always as common as we'd like, occurs to many thinking members of society who have given dating and relationships any serious thought. It's all great, but it still fails to light a path through the murk and the noise of conflicting relationship-philosophies. The best one has always been 'just be yourself', which I think is where the friendship-first mentality came from.

I should end this before I continue rambling, but the point is that for everyone, male or female, who dispenses the "why not just be upfront and ASK?!" track for advice, both in dating and dealing with friendzoning, I think you're missing pieces of the puzzle. It's not that the concept doesn't occur to some people, it's that for some people there are so many clashing and different concepts that claim to work that when you have a lack of experience, you almost overload and become paralyzed with indecision, going instead for the safer route.

The world screams that this shit is easy. It's not. Especially when you're not in the realm of attractive or lack the experience and/or self-confidence to take the easy and direct routes. The world bombards us with different ideas and weights of importance on love, sex, and relationships, and some of us just get lost in the storm.

 

[Forgetitnow344]

Rejection f***ing hurts.

Deal with it. Preferably without bitching about it in friendzone threads on this forum.

That doesn't help either. Am I blaming women? No. I blame myself. Sure, some people do, but that doesn't mean you judge everyone by their problems.

But it does help. When you pull yourself together and learn to accept rejection, it really really really helps. And once you learn how to deal with rejection, I am confident you wont be rejected as often either.

That's like putting everyone trying to stop smoking in a support group, it ain't gonna help everyone.

....The fuck? No, its not going to help everyone, but it will help the majority of people. You know, it is a stop smoking group that helps smokers who want to stop smoking stop smoking.

Fucking terrible analogy.

Dude, did you read this guy's entire original post? It's the saddest goddamn thing I've ever seen... I don't think he needs to be shit on at all anymore in this thread.

 

[Biodeamon]

And i suppose you think men work the same way don't you?
<youtube=McAeQiLmEYU>

 

[Kahunaburger]

Thank you OP. Many dudes seriously need to stop over-thinking this relationship stuff, and need to wrap their heads around the fact that Hollywood is a terrible source for dating tips.

 

[Macgyvercas]

Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.

Okay, this...this here. I HATE it when people do that. I don't get subtle hints very well, so I prefer people to be frank. If someone doesn't like me in that way, they should just tell me flat out, no sugar-coating, no holds barred. Yeah, it'll hurt, but I'll get over it. I always do.

Of course, I really don't have to worry about that in the foreseeable future, since I have a wonderful girlfriend who adores me (and I think she's amazing).

I hear this is a pretty common complaint. It could be because people tend to be conflict-averse in these types of situations, or because men and women have different communication styles that don't automatically mesh. For those that aren't in a relationship, be aware that women may communicate in more subtle ways than you're used to, dropping hints and using body language rather than being frank and open.

I don't "get" body language. I just don't. I've been trying to pretty much my whole life, but it doesn't come naturally to me like it does to neurotypicals. I know, that's not an excuse, and I have been working on trying to understand nonverbal cues for *checks watch* almost 18 years now, but if you're not being blunt, you may as well be speaking Greek to me.

 

[minimacker]

Let's put the friend's zone aside for a moment as I bring you this question.

Why do women say they want a gentleman, when they really want a pushy, rugged douche? Is it a maternal thing, or something?

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I believe the friendzone exists, though it can only crop up under one condition:
Both parties involved are lying to each other.

The guy is lying to the girl, because his intentions of just being a friend to the girl are false from the start.

And the girl lies to the guy when she says that all that matters to her is finding a guy based on a good/fun/caring/sweet personality. The truth is that it would be a nice addition to a guy who is attractive to her.

That's right, there's no strange anomaly or inverse logic at work. If you're situation falls under these conditions, you're in the friendzone, and it's because she doesn't find you attractive. Period.