Why is a Bare Breast More Offensive Than a Severed Arm?

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

I find it interesting that you mention how being aroused among others is more taboo than being grossed out among others.

He didn't say it was more taboo, he said it caused more physiological discomfort. Which it does.

To say that it is more taboo would be to imply that it is an invention of society, when in fact it is simple biology.

 

[Karadalis]

I find it interesting that you mention how being aroused among others is more taboo than being grossed out among others.

He didn't say it was more taboo, he said it caused more physiological discomfort. Which it does.

To say that it is more taboo would be to imply that it is an invention of society, when in fact it is simple biology.

But it is cultural and not biological...

Or when was the last time you saw a bonobo ashamed that he was screwing another bonobo infront of the entire group?

Humans are the only ones who show such behavior so no.. it is not biological but a result of hundrets of years of cultural indoctrination by organised religion.

Think about the romans.. the guys who pretty much invented orgies to begin with. Those things where pretty much family affairs... and they even had sex with minors and that was seen as something normal (well teenagers (most often male) from what i read... education and a "good" life against sex)

Before christianity/islam stepped up and told everyone what to think and what to do and not to do it was a pretty wild world out there.

 

[themilo504]

Personally I don?t think that anything that´s not porn should feature sexual content, and not just because I?m anti sex, the only reason to have sexual content is to turn you on, and the only media that should turn you on is porn.

Also most games don?t feature romance because most games aren?t about romance, I don?t see a reason to have romance subplots in stories that are not about romance, it?s like including a subplot about aliens trying to take over the world in a comedy about pirates.

And besides visual novels I honestly don?t see a way to create a video game about romances, unless you go really abstract, like a game were dates are represented by bullet hell gameplay.

 

[Karadalis]

Personally I don?t think that anything that´s not porn should feature sexual content, and not just because I?m anti sex, the only reason to have sexual content is to turn you on, and the only media that should turn you on is porn.

Sorry but i think thats a very narrow and short sighted argument.

Sex is an integral part of a normal relationship... to simply ignore it because "it should not be there because you could get aroused" is so limiting and smells of censorship because you dont happen to like it.

There are alot of people who like knowing that those characters arent sterile "happily ever after" disney characters that are so clean and unsexual you think they might bath in febreeze all the time.

If you want to make characters more realistic if the game calls for it (like in RPGs or story focused games) you wont get around also exploring their sexuality because it makes the character more complete and complex.

Thought no one (i hope) demands hardcore scenes, and they would be very out of place, but the scenes from the first mass effect for example or the witcher? I dont see any problem in them.

Sex scenes are a common event in movies nowadays, but yet in video games they are still very hush hush and the media reacts rather volatile to the very idea of it.. even thought games are alot more private then some Twilight movie in cinema.

 

[themilo504]

Personally I don?t think that anything that´s not porn should feature sexual content, and not just because I?m anti sex, the only reason to have sexual content is to turn you on, and the only media that should turn you on is porn.

Sorry but i think thats a very narrow and short sighted argument.

Sex is an integral part of a normal relationship... to simply ignore it because "it should not be there because you could get aroused" is so limiting and smells of censorship because you dont happen to like it.

There are alot of people who like knowing that those characters arent sterile "happily ever after" disney characters that are so clean and unsexual you think they might bath in febreeze all the time.

If you want to make characters more realistic if the game calls for it (like in RPGs or story focused games) you wont get around also exploring their sexuality because it makes the character more complete and complex.

Thought no one (i hope) demands hardcore scenes, and they would be very out of place, but the scenes from the first mass effect for example or the witcher? I dont see any problem in them.

Sex scenes are a common event in movies nowadays, but yet in video games they are still very hush hush and the media reacts rather volatile to the very idea of it.. even thought games are alot more private then some Twilight movie in cinema.

If you want characters to have sex just cut to black, and then show them both lying in bed naked, anything more is pointless unless you?re trying to turn on the audience.

 

[Pogilrup]

No games about contract negotiations?

Well then I better try my hand at it. It could really allow for stories about freelancers, be they artists or mercenaries.

 

[Jumwa]

I find this a pretty weak argument. Especially when it's said everyone is being disgusted by violence. Has Shamus not seen people partake in violent media? They seem thrilled, not disgusted usually, because we have a culture of violence. Many people love the explosions, the gory gruesomeness (and some don't, which also belies the "shared experience" argument).

Especially as it pertains to video games: I very much doubt we have millions of gamers playing Call of Duty feeling disgusted with themselves for murdering thousands of virtual people.

As for the argument that making sex into a system just doesn't work: Even assuming that's true, there's plenty of stupid things that appear in games stories that are never acted out through gameplay, or if they are, are done in an extremely basic manner.

Oh, and this isn't even pointing out the absurdity of the idea of our culture being concerned about making women feel uncomfortable with sexual depictions when we have pictures of gorgeous super models in lingerie in our malls, our streets, on day time television. Video games can't even tackle the idea of men being in love -- forget sex -- unless it's just to motivate him to go kill more. I don't think any of that has a thing to do with pragmatism.

Usually Shamus constructs a strong argument, this one I didn't buy.

 

[Pogilrup]

I find this a pretty weak argument. Especially when it's said everyone is being disgusted by violence. Has Shamus not seen people partake in violent media? They seem thrilled, not disgusted usually, because we have a culture of violence. Many people love the explosions, the gory gruesomeness (and some don't, which also belies the "shared experience" argument).

Especially as it pertains to video games: I very much doubt we have millions of gamers playing Call of Duty feeling disgusted with themselves for murdering thousands of virtual people.

As for the argument that making sex into a system just doesn't work: Even assuming that's true, there's plenty of stupid things that appear in games stories that are never acted out through gameplay, or if they are, are done in an extremely basic manner.

Oh, and this isn't even pointing out the absurdity of the idea of our culture being concerned about making women feel uncomfortable with sexual depictions when we have pictures of gorgeous super models in lingerie in our malls, our streets, on day time television. Video games can't even tackle the idea of men being in love -- forget sex -- unless it's just to motivate him to go kill more. I don't think any of that has a thing to do with pragmatism.

Usually Shamus constructs a strong argument, this one I didn't buy.

Actually, the "pictures of gorgeous super models in lingerie in our malls, our streets, on day time television" is why there are complaints about the number of female protagonists in videogames who do look like super models.

And it isn't about being actively feeling uncomfortable, but about being raised in an environment that can cause many young girls to grow up being too self conscious about their bodies.

 

[PunkRex]

Jokes on you, I consider myself a massive hedonist!

GUMBY, THE CHOCOLATE ICING!!!

 

[Jumwa]

Actually, the "pictures of gorgeous super models in lingerie in our malls, our streets, on day time television" is why there are complaints about the number of female protagonists in videogames who do look like super models.

And it isn't about being actively feeling uncomfortable, but about being raised in an environment that can cause many young girls to grow up being too self conscious about their bodies.

You seem to be mistaking my argument for an endorsement of those things. I was merely pointing out how silly it seems to be to say that a concern for making women feel inadequate while doing all these things is the explanation. People don't need to be 100% nude and mid-coitus to cause any of the things he said. In fact there's obvious moves to titillate and excite in the same media all the time. Going that one half-step further would seem to make only a slim difference at best.

If there was such a concern they'd stop a lot shorter.

 

[AgedGrunt]

Conditioning. There are no bans on depictions of violence; there is no concerted effort to cover it up, shame it (and shame people for staring at it).

In conjunction with pornography, this of course leads to a woman's breasts being sexualized (after all, there's no normal reason for her to be topless).

I'll make a fun analogy: it's a similar reason to why gun ownership is offensive to many people. People who are around them all the time wouldn't think much of seeing someone open carry, but for people who aren't, who only see them in violent movies or used by mass murderers they'll want those guns gone just like the moral crusader would want a woman's "guns" put away.

 

[Wilco86]

There's no counting how many times I've had this debate, and so I have a stock answer:

The one of the left shows a person (well, actually two) having a shower while wearing her underwear in a game Mass Effect 3 - a game made for mature players. I dunno, but I don't shower my clothes on - I have fallen from a boat and swam while my clothes on, but never showered.

The one from the right is from a French comic "Valérian et Laureline" (censored by yours truly) - an award-winning sci-fi comic for teens that has had direct effect to things like The Fifth Element, Star Wars, etc. Probably Mass Effect 3 was more futuristic, as in this people undressed to clean themselves properly. (For Mass Effect's credit, nudity was done well in the first one, as it used well-chosen camera angles for modesty.)

Also about BioWare and nudity: I find it funny how in Dragon Age: Origins nude werewolves magically conjure up clothing when returned to their human forms.

 

[Simon Kranz]

I got nothing interesting to say about the nudity versus violence thing. I mean, it's just one of many cultural absurdities that will die out eventually.

So, instead I'd like to point out that hedonism is often used in a derogative way. That is unjust I think. Hedonism is mostly about leading a good and happy life.

Christian thinkers twisted that concept into something evil where a hedonist would lack morals or boundaries like some kind of egomaniacal lust-driven freak (in order to sell their own concepts more convincingly). That's never been the original intent, though. Hedonism wasn't meant as a statement against being a moral person. It was more about the idea that to lead a good life you need to start by taking good care of yourself, treat your body right as a foundation for a healthy and happy mind.
It's actually a real nice idea.

So, please find your own word. Like, egomaniacal lust-driven freak. That'll do.

Sorry for the detour... back to nudity.

 

[zerragonoss]

If you want characters to have sex just cut to black, and then show them both lying in bed naked, anything more is pointless unless you?re trying to turn on the audience.

Not quite true actually, while it is in any game at the moment especially with the quality of our models and animations. You can actually describe a lot about a character or their relationship or mood by how they are having sex, its a complex interaction. Though you probably could convey this just by how they stated and looked afterwards true. though overall I agree as I have not interest in learning about characters though watching them have sex even if it could be an effective character building seance.

Basically. Having a choose your own adventure style dialogue is pretty much the extent of what we can do. Sure, there are ways to dress it up to hide where exactly the conversation choices are through stuff like stat checks, but sooner or later you need a human to write the actual words of dialogue being spoken. snip

Since you can't generalize conversations, you mostly have to direct players down specific dialogue paths. You have to write a response for each thing the player can say, so mostly you want to keep the number of branching points as small as possible. The more points of divergence you have the harder your job gets farther down the line. Even in games like Mass Effect that give you a lot of choices, most conversations are completely independent of each other or reference only a single other event.

As far as relationships as game mechanics I think we would get much further looking towards reality to find a way. It's true you can't program a computer in any reasonable way to simulate the complex verbal interactions in a way that feels organic or fun. However their is a chance you could do body langue and tone of voice control as the "Gamey" part as real world interactions are as heavily based on those things as on what words you say. Heck it might even be interesting to go Sims style and make all the language gibberish.

 

[WiseBass]

I pretty strongly disagree with the idea that we all have a communal reaction to violence in media that differs only in minor degrees. You put a violence scene in a movie, and you're going to get a wide range of reactions: disgust, apathy, amusement, enthusiasm, and so forth. Some people, particularly those that have been victimized by violent criminals in the past, might have a more severe reaction.

 

[Vareoth]

I understand some of the issues that people might have with nudity for whatever reason. That doesn't mean I share a single one of them however. People can walk around nude everyday for all I would care. To stigmatize nudity is pointless and silly (Iranian earthquakes, anyone?).

Growing up in the Netherlands might have something to do with my point of view. Though I think it is more likely attributed to the fact that I am an absolute hedonist.

 

[STENDEC1]

I remember hearing about the controversy that Deep Space Nine stirred up back in 1995 when the episode "Rejoined" aired. For those who don't know, it was sort-of an exploration of homosexual relationships in the Star Trek universe, although not really. It's too complex to really explain it properly, but the long and the short of it is that Jadzia (played by Terry Farrell) meets up with a former lover (played by Susanna Thompson). For sci-fi reasons, the two characters were previously a man and woman respectively, but now both are women. There are many trials and tribulations throughout the episode, which eventually leads them to kiss each other at one point, which was all very tastefully done. However, shortly thereafter the DS9 staff got a phone call from an angry viewer saying how incensed they were that they'd dare show two women kissing. The staff member who took the phone call asked the viewer, "Well, would you have preferred if one of them had shot the other instead of kissing her?" The viewer said "Yes, that would have been OK."

So yeah... kind of puts things into perspective about how some people perceive content. I should point out that there was nothing sexual about the episode at all. It wasn't even about the two characters being women. It was a story about love and the lengths people who are in love will go to for one another. But therein lies the problem with personal tastes. I'm sure that particular viewer was just one of the more extreme cases. I'm sure there were just as many people at the time who applauded that episode.

 

[Holythirteen]

Many people love the explosions, the gory gruesomeness (and some don't, which also belies the "shared experience" argument).

Well, its more likely a shared experience because the person next to you knew what to expect when going into that movie, because we do tend to know the attitudes of our friends have towards violence, but less so towards sex because we discuss those things less openly. Or am I off my rocker?

Saying that sexual standrads make some feel grossed our, some uncomfortable, some aroused is reliant almost entirely on the cultural lens you're looking through, and you're looking through it from an American lens. You say "let's ignore who the prudes are" then take the stance - intentionally or not - that your cultural perception on sex is how everyone in the world, in every culture, reacts to sex and that's just not true. You might feel really uncomfortable being aroused or watching sex scenes with your friends, in other countries this just isn't a problem.

In Germany, movies like Keinohrhasen are rated fine for children to watch and bare breasts will freely appear in daytime advertisements, and no one cares. No one bats an eye. You can argue all you want that this is somehow not related to culture, or if it is is related to culture in a way violence isn't, but I simply don't believe this to be the case in any way.

Yeah, that makes this discussion a bit muddy, doesn't it? But, as a baseline, if you were playing mass effect 1 and just went into the sex scene with liara, and your mom walked in and wanted to see you play this game(maybe she bought it for you or whatever), how quickly and frantically would you hit the pause/power button? Or would you be all like "Hey mom! Check this out!"?

 

[Archon]

I would just like to say that the art design for this column is probably one of the best illustrations the team has ever done. Can I get a huzzah for The Escapist graphic designers?!

 

[Mistwraithe]

]Yeah, that makes this discussion a bit muddy, doesn't it? But, as a baseline, if you were playing mass effect 1 and just went into the sex scene with liara, and your mom walked in and wanted to see you play this game(maybe she bought it for you or whatever), how quickly and frantically would you hit the pause/power button? Or would you be all like "Hey mom! Check this out!"?

A reasonable point. But you really need to contrast it with the scenario where your Mum walks in just as you are gruesomely chopping the limbs and heads off a pack of mooks in a violent game. Is your Mum going to be any more impressed? OK, the answer to that obviously depends on who your mother is and how taboo she finds violence vs sex but I think a moderate number would actually UNDERSTAND the interest in sex more than the interest in violence...