Why is Obsidian so praised?

[Kimarous]

I keep hearing people praise Obsidian for their writing, shuffling the overall bugginess of their games as mere semantics. I've only played three of their games, and quite frankly, I don't get it. How is their writing THAT good?

I only played a bit of Alpha Protocol, but I hated it. Most of the hate was for the gameplay, but I also didn't like the writing... or at least how the dialogue was presented. People blast Bioware for unintuitive dialogue options, but I've never found it as bad as with Alpha Protocol. First level, I express to my contact that "I'll handle it." What my guy actually says is "Set off the alarm." WHAT? That's not what I wanted at all! I wanted to wait for him and catch him off guard!

New Vegas... not terrible, but I found it rather underwhelming. Maybe I just liked the atmosphere of Fallout 3 better and that's why, but... eh... not "they are awesome writers" level.

And now the big one: Knights of the Old Republic 2. *sighs and raise flame shield*

KOTOR 2 DOES NOT HAVE GOOD WRITING!

There, I said it, and I will clarify why. Kreia is the ONLY good part of KOTOR 2. Everything pertaining to her was really interesting, especially her philosophy... but what of everything else? The beginning is HORRIBLY paced; Peragus takes forever, there's almost nothing to at Telos station, the surface of Telos is extremely tedious, and then you FINALLY get to explore the other planets: the empty Korriban, the sparsely populated Dantooine, the mostly wild Dxun with only a small taste of Onderon's city, and the dark and bleak Nar Shaddaa. Where's the life? Where's the interaction? The only people you really talk to are your companions, and only Kreia has anything interesting to say. Even HK is boring this time around! At least the first game felt like you interacted with the world and DID something.

One good character out of all those games does not make for good writing. So what's the deal with Obsidian anyway? Is there some other game that I'm missing out on, or are these just fanboys flapping their metaphorical lips?

 

[Arina Love]

Because it's their OPINION you have your own, they have theirs. If you don't like Obsidian writing fine, be on your way. As for me i like Obsidian, had fun with pretty much all games they made, especially KOTOR2.

 

[ResonanceGames]

It's not that their writing is amazing literature, it's that they write games in such a way that it encourages real roleplaying, rather than the Bioware formula of Boy Scout/Milquetoast/Kitten Stomper.

There are actual grey areas in their games, and you have a lot more dialogue options with character depth than you usually get in an RPG. Troika and Black Isle did this even better than Obsidian, but Obsidian is still pretty good at it.

 

[KingHodor]

Obsidian took in a lot of the creative talent from Black Isle (Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale) and Troika (Arcanum, VtM: Bloodlines) - "Obsidian" is just a company name; what matters is that they've got people like Chris Avellone and Tim Cain, who've obviously got a lot of cred with RPG veterans.

As for KOTOR2, Lucasarts wanted it rushed out for Christmas, hence you're getting an unfinished game. Also, a lot of the backstory is hidden in conversations with your companions, and those will only open up to you if you've got their respect - unfortunately, the opportunities to actually increase that respect are so rare that you're also bound to miss out on them unless you're using a guide.

 

[The Madman]

I prefer Alpha Protocol's dialogue over Mass Effects or any other rpg out there these days actually. That the conversations are timed means that you're not only forced to think quickly but also means the conversations and dialogue flows naturally and isn't the stilted robot-speak we've all grown used to in games. The replies also being 'coded' by intentions is also a step up from the patented Bioware Good/Neutral/Evil options. True there are occasions when the character says things you didn't necessarily intend, but that's going to happen with any dialogue wheel (Which is why I dislike them in general actually!) but at least this way you're actually, you know, roleplaying as opposed to just selecting the evil option so you can max out your evil stat for bonus points in evilness!

And that right there is the crux of it: Obsidian games encourage actual roleplaying. You can see the roots of the company in table-top rpg and board games as they try to steer clear of the entire good/evil nice/asshole tropes that seem to have become a staple in games. Everything from Mass Effect to Fallout and Bioshock. It's good or evil, pick a side!

Obsidian don't do that, or at least they try not to. Even with Kotor, a setting specifically designed around the whole light vs. dark they tried something new and in so doing created probably my favourite story in the Star Wars setting since the original trilogy. Something that genuinely made me think about the setting in a different way and managed to work around my inherent boredom with the increasing stupidity of the Star Wars setting.

Look at Mask of the Betrayer, another of Obsidians work. This is a game where the entire plot is steeped in moral ambiguity. Even having played that campaign twice I still don't know what the right answer is or even if there *is* a right answer. That they managed to pull so much ambiguity from the Forgotten Realms setting is a testament to their creative writing skills. It also helps that they're extremely skilled at writing clever and believable dialogue as well, an under-appreciated skill in the games industry. For all its many, many faults (Despite my earlier praise of the game I'd still only rate it around 5 or 6/10 if I had to review it!) Alpha Protocol has some of the most interesting dialogue out there. Conversations that flow naturally and actually sound like, well, real people having a conversation. That's depressingly rare in the games industry.

...Now if only they'd hire some better programmers and testing staff....

 

[Kimarous]

Because it's their OPINION you have your own, they have theirs. If you don't like Obsidian writing fine, be on your way. As for me i like Obsidian, had fun with pretty much all games they made, especially KOTOR2.

I'm not denying that there are differing opinions. What I'm asking is that you DEFEND your position. A lot of people hate "The Phantom Menace"; I like it and I can point out why, despite it's various flaws, I still like it. I ask why people think Obsidian is so good at writing, but simply flailing the "that's, like, your opinion, man" card is just lazy.

 

[Arina Love]

Because it's their OPINION you have your own, they have theirs. If you don't like Obsidian writing fine, be on your way. As for me i like Obsidian, had fun with pretty much all games they made, especially KOTOR2.

I'm not denying that there are differing opinions. What I'm asking is that you DEFEND your position. A lot of people hate "The Phantom Menace"; I like it and I can point out why, despite it's various flaws, I still like it. I ask why people think Obsidian is so good at writing, but simply flailing the "that's, like, your opinion, man" card is just lazy.

I'm lazy and arguments on opinions is stupid and not worth it. i know what i like. chill-out dude it's only a game. so here you go:

 

[AD-Stu]

N'yeah... as far as Alpha Protocol goes I'd say it was a gameplay fault more than a writing fault - I ran into the same problem a few times, where I selected a dialog option that I thought would do one thing, and I ended up saying something wildly different.

You basically had to be in on their "three JB's" system, whereby (and I could have the order wrong here, been a while since I played it) the top option is always the Jack Bauer "rah smash!" option, the middle one is the straight-up professional Jason Bourne one, and the bottom option is the sleazy James Bond one - once I worked that out it wasn't as bad but you're right, better labelling of the options would have been a better way to fix the problem.

KOTOR 2 I never really rated the writing on my first playthrough, but I've since changed my mind and think it's probably gameplay and rushed release rather than writing issues that brought it down. So much stuff was missing from the original release, and it was really, really easy to miss other bits. Good writing was there but you had to know all the right hoops to jump through before you could access a lot of it.

 

[putowtin]

And now the big one: Knights of the Old Republic 2. *sighs and raise flame shield*

KOTOR 2 DOES NOT HAVE GOOD WRITING!

There, I said it, and I will clarify why. Kreia is the ONLY good part of KOTOR 2.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

I can't take it any more! Atton rocks and I will not hear a word said against him! and at least the characters in KotOR II have interesting stories (If you take the time to get to know them)

 

[Candidus]

I agree with you OP. Their writing leaves me cold, and their coding usually leaves me furious.

Actually, I say that, but I haven't touched an Obsidian game since they killed Forgotten Realms with the notoriously shit Neverwinter Nights 2. Been a long time since I've been cold or furious. EDIT: People say they took a lot of creative talent out of Black Isle, but as far as I'm concerned, the Black Isle guys must be making the coffee. I certainly don't see any of the old studio's quality in their modern efforts.

 

[.No.]

Because it's their OPINION you have your own, they have theirs. If you don't like Obsidian writing fine, be on your way. As for me i like Obsidian, had fun with pretty much all games they made, especially KOTOR2.

I'm not denying that there are differing opinions. What I'm asking is that you DEFEND your position. A lot of people hate "The Phantom Menace"; I like it and I can point out why, despite it's various flaws, I still like it. I ask why people think Obsidian is so good at writing, but simply flailing the "that's, like, your opinion, man" card is just lazy.

We don't NEED to defend our opinions. You don't like Obsidian, we do, and we also don't care that you don't like Obsidian.

 

[gigastar]

Yeah im in the same boat as OP with Obsidian, ive seen and experienced plenty of thier games but sometimes thier writing quality falls below Capcom's standards (to me) and as far as the gameplay goes i can only praise New Vegas, but then the gameplay was already done by someone else, and then it crashed, and crashed, and crashed, then an ineffective patch, and then crashed again.

Also for the record i have not played KotOR2, i have no love for modern Star Wars games, much less ones that were rushed for the holiday sales period.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I'd suggest you read this Let's Play. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, but it is really insightful on the inner workings of Obsidian and just what happened in KOTOR 2 in particular.
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

 

[Korten12]

I prefer Alpha Protocol's dialogue over Mass Effects or any other rpg out there these days actually. That the conversations are timed means that you're not only forced to think quickly but also means the conversations and dialogue flows naturally and isn't the stilted robot-speak we've all grown used to in games. The replies also being 'coded' by intentions is also a step up from the patented Bioware Good/Neutral/Evil options. True there are occasions when the character says things you didn't necessarily intend, but that's going to happen with any dialogue wheel (Which is why I dislike them in general actually!) but at least this way you're actually, you know, roleplaying as opposed to just selecting the evil option so you can max out your evil stat for bonus points in evilness!

And that right there is the crux of it: Obsidian games encourage actual roleplaying. You can see the roots of the company in table-top rpg and board games as they try to steer clear of the entire good/evil nice/asshole tropes that seem to have become a staple in games. Everything from Mass Effect to Fallout and Bioshock. It's good or evil, pick a side!

So true, Alpha Protocol also had not only robust dialogue system but also it made your choice really matter and things very grey. Sometimes I had no idea which would be worse or good, to let a person live or kill them?

I remember I had the choice to save a girl or some innocent bystanders. I choose the girl because I felt it was my fault she was in the mess. I sat there for a long time deciding, something I have never done in a bioware game.

In the end, she got angry at me for choosing her, and I felt terrible. I thought I had made the right choice...

 

[Woodsey]

Alpha Protocol has shit writing, so let's just throw that one right out of the window. KotOR 2 was a fairly interesting attempt at a deconstruction of Star Wars and RPGs, and had some great dialogue. NWN 2 bored me to tears for as long as I could bear it, and New Vegas' was decent but nothing astounding.

I do think Chris Avellone is a real writing talent though (if only for KotOR 2), and should move to a studio where they actually make use of it. As for the actual game part of their games: broken, exactly the same as someone else had done it before anyway, or bizarrely awful (hello Alpha Protocol).

They are, to be frank, fairly crap. There comes a point where you can't just keep on blaming the publishers, over and over.

 

[ResonanceGames]

I do think Chris Avellone is a real writing talent though (if only for KotOR 2)

Chris Avellone wrote almost every line of text in Planescape: Torment. I think we can say pretty definitively that he's one of -- if not THE -- best writers in gaming.

 

[Kimarous]

And now the big one: Knights of the Old Republic 2. *sighs and raise flame shield*

KOTOR 2 DOES NOT HAVE GOOD WRITING!

There, I said it, and I will clarify why. Kreia is the ONLY good part of KOTOR 2.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

I can't take it any more! Atton rocks and I will not hear a word said against him! and at least the characters in KotOR II have interesting stories (If you take the time to get to know them)

Please, do continue. If Atton rocks so much, please... enlighten me as to why.

I'd suggest you read this Let's Play. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, but it is really insightful on the inner workings of Obsidian and just what happened in KOTOR 2 in particular.
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

I've already read that, but I appreciate the thought. The cut content does make it a BIT more interesting, but nowhere near the "OMG so good" level that many present it as. All the really interesting stuff still revolves around Kreia and the rest just feels "meh" to me at best.

 

[Irridium]

Alpha Protocol - A game that you can actually alter the game in some pretty insane ways. After playing this game, it's become more than obvious that almost all other games that advertise choices and consequences are basically lies.

New Vegas - Was actually a Fallout game in more than just name. Story was Fallout through and through.

KOTOR 2 - Easily their best writing. In it they deconstruct the force, general Star Wars lore, and common RPG tropes. It actually explained why the force effected things, and how it effected things. Instead of just a simple "the force did it" explanation like we always get, we also get a "here's how the force did it".

If you don't mind, I'm going to explain the whole story of Kotor 2. Well, explain it in the shortest way I can, at least. The game came out ages ago, and people in this thread either don't care for Obsidian, so won't care about being spoiled. Or people who like them and know it anyway.

In Kotor 2, you're character can't feel the force. As a result, you are not bound by it, which means you can shape it, use it, or even destroy it if you wished to. This is why Kreia gets so pissed at you for going light side/dark side. You have the ability to ignore the force, completely turn away from it and whatever destiny it means for you to have. Yet you choose to submit yourself to it. You can do what she's always dreamed of doing, and yet you don't do it. And it annoys the hell out of her. Anyway, since you have no connection to the force, the only way you can use it is by using it through others. You use other people's connections to the force for yourself. Because of this, you build bonds very easily with others, and are very good at attracting force sensitives. This is why nearly all the companions you get follow you, why you can turn so many into jedi/sith, and why they'll do whatever you want even if it goes against their personal morals. The fact that they aren't your standard Bioware characters (the *****, the honorable mercenary, the old person, and so-on) also helps. This is also why you don't have any powers at the start of the game, even though you were a Jedi. You traveled alone. And as a result, didn't have people to ciphon the force from. And why it started coming back so quickly. The presence of Kreia, someone who can use the force, helped you get more in tune with the force. Which is also why your force bond is so strong with her. You're lack of connection with the force is also why you must be the one to defeat Nihilus. Nihilus feeds on the force, but since you don't have any connection to it, he can't feed on you. Which makes you the best chance to defeat him.

Basically, everything has an explanation, everything simply makes sense. If it was any other game, so much of that would just have a simple "it was the force/because it's a game" excuse and would just focus on yet another good vs. evil thing. That's why so many people love the writing for it. It all makes sense, which is sadly extremely rare for a video game.

Also, what The Madman said above. All of what he said.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

And now the big one: Knights of the Old Republic 2. *sighs and raise flame shield*

KOTOR 2 DOES NOT HAVE GOOD WRITING!

There, I said it, and I will clarify why. Kreia is the ONLY good part of KOTOR 2.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

I can't take it any more! Atton rocks and I will not hear a word said against him! and at least the characters in KotOR II have interesting stories (If you take the time to get to know them)

Please, do continue. If Atton rocks so much, please... enlighten me as to why.

I'd suggest you read this Let's Play. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, but it is really insightful on the inner workings of Obsidian and just what happened in KOTOR 2 in particular.
http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

I've already read that, but I appreciate the thought. The cut content does make it a BIT more interesting, but nowhere near the "OMG so good" level that many present it as. All the really interesting stuff still revolves around Kreia and the rest just feels "meh" to me at best.

I can see that. I will admit that some of the characters in KOTOR 2 are not as well fleshed out as others, though I disagree that Kreia is the only substantial one. Atton, just to elaborate on the quote above mine, I find fascinating.

At first glance, he's the archetypical Han Solo character, albeit a bit surlier. But as his story is revealed, I find that he becomes much more interesting. He was originally a Republic soldier turned Sith Assassin who went on the run after a Jedi he was tasked to murder mind raped him.

During one of the better scenes with Kreia, you read your companions minds... except for Atton, who's only thoughts you can hear are him counting cards in his head. If you ask him about this, he tells you he saw you trying to break into his mind, so he threw up his barrier. He outs on the facade of a jackass to hide himself from others, since he is ashamed of his past, and what has become of the Jedi.

Atton also raises some very valid points that are never touched on in other parts of the Star Wars universe. Whenever the Jedi and Sith fight, they always manage to drag the entire galaxy into the ground with them. He'd rather both sides just die off and save the rest of the galaxy the trouble.

 

[The Madman]

Also, what The Madman said above. All of what he said.

Why thank you!

I think one of my favourite moments in Kotor 2 was just a seemingly simple conversation had between two of your companions where they take the time to ask and answer a very simple yet almost never asked question in games, "Why am I doing this?".

See one of the characters isn't actually a violent person. Sure she's tough and will fight if she has to but she's against the concept of killing and ending another persons life. Of course in good old fashioned rpg style once recruited by the player she then joins the player in all out slaughter as dozens if not hundreds of generic npc throw themselves against you and are killed. It happens in literally every rpg out there, all of them. From the original Kotor where sweet little Mission, the blue faced teen girl and her lovable wookie sidekick, slaughter hundreds of people without thought or worry to Skyrim where you and your companion can go all out genocide on towns and villages, entire local species with nary a moment of conscience.

Throughout gaming in general this minor details is just something players expect and dismiss as game mechanics. Kotor 2 is to the best of my knowledge the only game that steps back and says "Wait, this isn't right, why are they doing this? Are these characters alright with this? Do they care?". And then works to create a plausible reason for why these characters are doing this, not only that but even showing the characters discussing and arguing over it among themselves. You know, like actual people would!

It's that sort of attention to what would otherwise be a minor plot detail that endears Obsidian to me. It's such a tiny thing that every other developer is more than happy to overlook but which Obsidian took the time to try and explain and, in so doing, make the characters within the story a little more believable.

I really do wish Obsidian had had the time to properly finish Kotor 2, it's a tragedy what ended up happening to that game. Genuinely had a shot at being better than the first and becoming a classic in its own right. Still it's nice that projects like the Restored Content Mod are giving the game a second shot, major props to the mods developers.