Why is Sex as recreation seen as more taboo then violence? Especially in Media?

Chimpzy

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Honestly, if it's legal, and consensual, I don't see any issue with practicing this. And frankly, it should probably be legalized and regulated everywhere. It would improve the lives of sex workers the world over.
Not much to add here, I just want to say I 100% agree with this statement, it will be safer for everyone involved and will reduce organised crime, since prostitutes would no longer be at risk of being arrested when they report crimes of pimping, that being said I'm not sure if it would have much of an effect on kidnapping and sex slavery but nonetheless it's definitely the correct thing to do.
Were it that easy. Legalizing sex work can be an improvement, but generally only really beneficial for the least vulnerable people. The ones there by choice, more high class girls, usually self-employed or in a cooperation with other likewise women (and also usually natives in western countries). But the less fortunate women don't see as much benefit. There's generally no noticeably less abuse in countries with legal prostitution, nor are those abuses more regularly reported, and the really bad stuff like human trafficking and underage prostitution is still around, just deeper underground. Then again, criminalizing sex work is not an effective solution either, since it rarely ever curbs sex work and leaves the people working in it more vulnerable. Rather a lose/lose situation.

Fyi, I don't disagree with legalizing, but it would be way more complicated and require way more effort than simply creating laws and rules.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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Were it that easy. Legalizing sex work can be an improvement, but generally only really beneficial for the least vulnerable people. The ones there by choice, more high class girls, usually self-employed or in a cooperation with other likewise women (and also usually natives in western countries). But the less fortunate women don't see as much benefit. There's generally no noticeably less abuse in countries with legal prostitution, nor are those abuses more regularly reported, and the really bad stuff like human trafficking and underage prostitution is still around, just deeper underground. Then again, criminalizing sex work is not an effective solution either, since it rarely ever curbs sex work and leaves the people working in it more vulnerable. Rather a lose/lose situation.
UBI would go some way towards providing enough of a safety net that people aren't continuously pushed into desperate situations like that. But then again, too many people benefiting from the social hierarchy love having desperate people around willing to do anything to survive, they don't want that desperation to be gone in any form.
 

Kae

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Were it that easy. Legalizing sex work can be an improvement, but generally only really beneficial for the least vulnerable people. The ones there by choice, more high class girls, usually self-employed or in a cooperation with other likewise women (and also usually natives in western countries). But the less fortunate women don't see as much benefit. There's generally no noticeably less abuse in countries with legal prostitution, nor are those abuses more regularly reported, and the really bad stuff like human trafficking and underage prostitution is still around, just deeper underground. Then again, criminalizing sex work is not an effective solution either, since it rarely ever curbs sex work and leaves the people working in it more vulnerable. Rather a lose/lose situation.

Fyi, I don't disagree with legalizing, but it would be way more complicated and require way more effort than simply creating laws and rules.
Yeah I don't disagree with this, like I said kidnapping and pimping are huge factors in prostitution as is other factors such as conditioning and brainwashing mostly by getting them addicted to drugs and I'd rather not get into talking about child prostitution and so on, you know I live in México the country with the highest rate of child pornography in the world, I'm very painfully aware about these things, to be honest I've lost many nights of sleep thinking about these problems and how I have no idea how to stop them and even when I've even seriously considered vigilantism but my friends convinced me not to do it, so basically all I can do is sit around and be depressed that it happens.

But you legalisation and regulation does solve some problems at least, so it's a step in the right direction.
 

Thaluikhain

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Yeah I don't disagree with this, like I said kidnapping and pimping are huge factors in prostitution as is other factors such as conditioning and brainwashing mostly by getting them addicted to drugs and I'd rather not get into talking about child prostitution and so on, you know I live in México the country with the highest rate of child pornography in the world, I'm very painfully aware about these things, to be honest I've lost many nights of sleep thinking about these problems and how I have no idea how to stop them and even when I've even seriously considered vigilantism but my friends convinced me not to do it, so basically all I can do is sit around and be depressed that it happens.

But you legalisation and regulation does solve some problems at least, so it's a step in the right direction.
Well, there's usually the assumption that the people created and enforcing the new legislation and regulation know and care about the problems facing sex workers. Given that assumption, it might well work.

On a related note, a fair few places are having currently big protests about people (specifically those that create and enforcing the existing legislation and regulation for all sorts of things) deliberately harming vulnerable people for the hell of it. So, yeah.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Fox, honey, don't worry about the pedophile defending bigot, you're beautiful as you are. Go on to bed. Let him stew in his own bitterness and prejudices.
Starting to think you are just a jerk instead of a memer.

Please don't use him as an example of the rest of us. And yes yes, I know, I'm weird too, but my brand of weirdness as well as most Christians is different from his.

People that like ponies?
Yeah, I suppose, back in the day I would probably have less nuance about it, but, I'm not convinced hes a bad dude. Maybe just more judgmental then he should be without all the information.

Actually I'm not sure about ponies, I don't really recall hearing about them getting up in arms about it, really the last media thing I remember them really going for was pokemon, and they lost that battle badly.

Nobody has ever been genuinely offended by kink-shaming. It's just liberal posturing. Open and detailed discussion of fetishes belongs to sex forums and not somewhere more akin to a simulated coffee table conversation. Sure, there could be some ultra-rare case in which a person equates sex to some fetish and thus takes personal offence, but that's bordering on disorder and they should be doing a little introspection at the very least. So I'd say this is why multiple qualifications and "not all X" isn't necessary.

Anyway, it loops back to the main (sort of) question about what kind of sexuality can be considered healthy to which the liberal answer is "anything between consenting adults". That's a low bar to pass.
I'm really not sure what you mean here, can you rephrase this.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Yeah, no, sorry. He's now called me racist, homophobic, ect, multiple times. After being asked to stop. If he does't want to get called out, he should probably consider his words more carefully.

This problem isn't going to go away as long as he continues to behave in this manner.
Ugh, I'm starting to think you are doing this on purpose. I haven't directly accused you of being a racist or homophobic, but you have used language they use, which means you can appear to be.
 

fOx

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Ugh, I'm starting to think you are doing this on purpose. I haven't directly accused you of being a racist or homophobic, but you have used language they use at times.
You were talking about me hitting gay people, but you aren't accusing me of being homophobic? Worgen, just stop. Apologize for your behavior, ask for forgiveness, and move on with your life.

You aren't being picked on, and you aren't being singled out. You're exhibiting bad behavior, and getting called out for it by other people.
 

Drathnoxis

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Ugh, I'm starting to think you are doing this on purpose. I haven't directly accused you of being a racist or homophobic, but you have used language they use at times.
You were talking about me hitting gay people, but you aren't accusing me of being homophobic? Worgen, just stop. Apologize for your behavior, ask for forgiveness, and move on with your life.

You aren't being picked on, and you aren't being singled out. You're exhibiting bad behavior, and getting called out for it by other people.
Best solution is probably to try and ignore each other. I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere good and it's already derailing the thread.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
You were talking about me hitting gay people, but you aren't accusing me of being homophobic? Worgen, just stop. Apologize for your behavior, ask for forgiveness, and move on with your life.

You aren't being picked on, and you aren't being singled out. You're exhibiting bad behavior, and getting called out for it by other people.
Oh yeah, that. That was a response to your quote unquote boyfriend who brought it up. I do apologize for the implication but you might want to tell him not to start with that kinda thing. But, I will remove the post.

The funny thing is that I see you doing this. I think how quick you are to judge is still an issue. You do seem to have let go of some of the language though.
 

Chimpzy

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Yeah I don't disagree with this, like I said kidnapping and pimping are huge factors in prostitution as is other factors such as conditioning and brainwashing mostly by getting them addicted to drugs and I'd rather not get into talking about child prostitution and so on, you know I live in México the country with the highest rate of child pornography in the world, I'm very painfully aware about these things, to be honest I've lost many nights of sleep thinking about these problems and how I have no idea how to stop them and even when I've even seriously considered vigilantism but my friends convinced me not to do it, so basically all I can do is sit around and be depressed that it happens.
I know. Not going to talk details, but I've been told some heartrending stories while assured they're really only the tip of the shit mountain.
But you legalisation and regulation does solve some problems at least, so it's a step in the right direction.
I suppose it is, in the sense that having some people be better off is preferable over not really anyone at all.
 

Latif

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The funny thing is that I see you doing this. I think how quick you are to judge is still an issue. You do seem to have let go of some of the language though.
Sir, I fail to see the logic of your fixation on his usage of language merely because you personally associate it with a faction or group you find unsavoury. It's impractical and it invites a precedence to analyse post composition rather than post content and furthermore it leads to pointless derailment and personal arguments. Case in point? This very thread.
 

gorfias

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Kind of off topic, but, especially with Cercie's walk of shame on Game of Thrones, they're using CGI to create an illusion of nudity. For reasons I cannot put my finger upon, I find this irksome. You?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Sir, I fail to see the logic of your fixation on his usage of language merely because you personally associate it with a faction or group you find unsavoury. It's impractical and it invites a precedence to analyse post composition rather than post content and furthermore it leads to pointless derailment and personal arguments. Case in point? This very thread.
No, I was bringing that up as a past instance. He seems to have stopped using the particular phrase in question.

Kind of off topic, but, especially with Cercie's walk of shame on Game of Thrones, they're using CGI to create an illusion of nudity. For reasons I cannot put my finger upon, I find this irksome. You?
Maybe she didn't want to do a full nude scene? I know that its actually rather common for actors to use someone else for a nude scene.
 
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Chimpzy

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Kind of off topic, but, especially with Cercie's walk of shame on Game of Thrones, they're using CGI to create an illusion of nudity. For reasons I cannot put my finger upon, I find this irksome. You?
There was a real person walking buck naked down the steps of Dubrovnik for that scene. Just not Lena Heady herself, but a body double with Headey's face (rather poorly) cgi'd on. Perhaps because Headey was pregnant at the time.
 
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gorfias

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No, I was bringing that up as a past instance. He seems to have stopped using the particular phrase in question.


Maybe she didn't want to do a full nude scene? I know that its actually rather common for actors to use someone else for a nude scene.
There was a real person walking buck naked down the steps of Dubrovnik for that scene. Just not Lena Heady herself, but a body double with Headey's face (rather poorly) cgi'd on. Perhaps because Headey was pregnant at the time.
I think it was Jessica Alba does a "nude" shower scene. She was in a bathing suit and they CGI'd it for effect.

Expect a ton more of this as it gets easier and cheaper to do.

You've likely seen the deep fakes out there that are pretty amazing. Next thing you know, a young Charlie Sheen is going to team up with Humphry Bogart in a space opera.

Edit: Maybe we can blame Covid for people not wanting to be in movies together. https://bgr.com/2020/06/09/sex-scenes-coronavirus-cgi-new-filming-rules/
 

Fieldy409

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Honestly, if it's legal, and consensual, I don't see any issue with practicing this. And frankly, it should probably be legalized and regulated everywhere. It would improve the lives of sex workers the world over.
I once strongly considered losing my virginity to a hooker but you can't give blood if you've been with a prostitute even with protection. Which might not seem important to many but to me giving blood is the most important thing I do since it saves so many lives.
 
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Agema

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Were it that easy. Legalizing sex work can be an improvement, but generally only really beneficial for the least vulnerable people. The ones there by choice, more high class girls, usually self-employed or in a cooperation with other likewise women (and also usually natives in western countries). But the less fortunate women don't see as much benefit. There's generally no noticeably less abuse in countries with legal prostitution, nor are those abuses more regularly reported, and the really bad stuff like human trafficking and underage prostitution is still around, just deeper underground. Then again, criminalizing sex work is not an effective solution either, since it rarely ever curbs sex work and leaves the people working in it more vulnerable. Rather a lose/lose situation.
I suspect a fundamental problem is that where the average man just wants sex and can find a prostitute willing to provide in a mutually beneficial transaction, some men want to dominate, control, degrade and abuse when most prostitutes probably don't want to be on the receiving end of that. Consequently, even with prostitution legalised, there's a demand for vulnerable prostitutes to suffer the legally intolerable, and some sick scumbag is going to arrange a supply for that demand.
 

stroopwafel

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I suspect a fundamental problem is that where the average man just wants sex and can find a prostitute willing to provide in a mutually beneficial transaction, some men want to dominate, control, degrade and abuse when most prostitutes probably don't want to be on the receiving end of that. Consequently, even with prostitution legalised, there's a demand for vulnerable prostitutes to suffer the legally intolerable, and some sick scumbag is going to arrange a supply for that demand.
To your first point any prostitute is ofcourse free to reject a client who is disrespectful. Otherwise it's just rape. Also there are posts on instagram with girls warning eachother about abusive assholes(choking, slapping, very rough sex) they meet in the nightlife so men abusing women isn't exclusive to prostitution. Not to mention ofcourse that most abuse occurs in relationships. With legal prostitution girls can also directly contact vice when someone crosses the line and men are ofcourse also aware of this. When it's underground and illegal there is no oversight or regulation to make it safe. Actually prostitutes themselves clamor to make their business legal and by and far aren't the 'victims' the media tries to portray them as. And men paying for sex isn't going away. They don't call it 'the oldest profession' for nothing.

I agree about legalizing prostitution doesn't prevent trafficking or exploitation but these are separate issues. Here prostitution(or any kind of forced labor really) is involuntary and facilitated by a crime syndicate. It's really more of an organized crime issue that preys on the poor and destitute or 'loverboys' exploiting underage girls. Sure, some sick fuck might prey on the vulnerable this syndicate or scumbag provides and gets off on abusing girls in visible distress but the vast majority of Johns don't want to commit a serious crime or are otherwise deranged. They just want to pay for sex because they don't have a partner, their partner is old and/or unattractive, they lust for a different woman then their own or they just want something they are afraid to ask their partner like a finger up their ass. Not to mention prositutes also service quite an amount of people that are handicapped or otherwise disabled. Denying them any kind of physical intimacy is also cruel.
 
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Terminal Blue

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Actually prostitutes themselves clamor to make their business legal and by and far aren't the 'victims' the media tries to portray them as.
Here's the issue.

What does legalisation mean?

Short answer, legalisation doesn't mean legalising the act of being paid for sexual services, that's typically already legal by the point a country is considering legalisation and even when it's not legal is unenforcable. Neither does it mean legalizing loitering or public solicitation, which are the actual crimes people get arrested for. Those typically remain illegal because they're considered a public nuisance.

What legalization actually means is legalizing brothel ownership, escort services and things like advertising sexual services openly. In other words, what is being legalized is makjing money from prostitution by controlling a business that employs or takes money from sex workers.

And every time this happens, there are some consequences. Most notably, demand for sexual services rises enormously, but the supply of people (particularly women and trans people) willing to actually do the work generally does not. There are not a huge mass of people clamouring to work in brothels. Those who do end up working in brothels are typically either immigrants, who are brought in specifically to work in the sex industry, or people experiencing financial hardship who see it as a temporary solution. A few people who work in the sex industry end up liking it, I know quite a few people who did sex work or thought seriously about it and for most of them it was a pretty good and empowering decision at the time. But what most of them found rewarding was not only the financial reward, but the freedom. The more forms of rent you have to pay, and the more beholden you are to a business which expects financial return on your work because it has rent and salaries to pay, the less that freedom exists.

Now you might say, well that's fine, as long as the rules are enforced the market will just sort out the labour shortage. But what happens when demand rises but supply does not? If prices were to rise, then it would become unaffordable to many people, but those people still have demand, so where do they go? Who meets their demands?

Legal brothel ownership and organised crime are not entirely separate issues. If they were, it wouldn't be necessary to screen legal brothel owners for previous human trafficking convictions. The people who will inevitably end up running and profiting most from a legal sex industry are often the same people who were doing it before. Except, it becomes far, far more profitable because of demand, and far safer from legal scrutiny.

In short, the sex industry is capitalism. Capitalism is not a nice or benevolent system. It does not exist to protect the right of workers, nor does it inherently place any value on the rights or quality of life of workers. If you create a highly regulated legal industry, people will escape regulation by creating an illegal industry, just on a much larger scale than before.

There's this idea (and bear in mind a lot of discussion of the legal sex industry comes from PR) that legalizing prostitution will move people off the streets and into brothels where they will be safe and protected. That may occasionally happen to individuals, but the reality is that really vulnerable people will still end up on the streets (in greater numbers), because they can't afford to pay rent to work in a brothel, because they or the people controlling them can't afford or don't want the scrutiny that comes with regulation, and because ultimately the problems of prostitution are caused by demand. If you want cheap bodies, you can get them cheaper by abusing people.

Not to mention prositutes also service quite an amount of people that are handicapped or otherwise disabled. Denying them any kind of physical intimacy is also cruel.
I also can't help but feel that the idea that access to another person's body is some kind of right to which everyone (everyone male at least) is entitled and which it is unbearably cruel to deny them has a slight whiff of inceldom about it.

The fact that someone can choose to give sex or physical intimacy to someone who would otherwise struggle to find companionship is a pretty positive and neat thing, but what's positive about it is the choice, and the merit of making that choice. The supposed injury or harm of not having easy access to sexual partners does not justify any kind of insinuation that a person is owed sex, and that the provision of sex is some kind of duty which women as a class owe to the male population.
 
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stroopwafel

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Here's the issue.

What does legalisation mean?

Short answer, legalisation doesn't mean legalising the act of being paid for sexual services, that's typically already legal by the point a country is considering legalisation and even when it's not legal is unenforcable. Neither does it mean legalizing loitering or public solicitation, which are the actual crimes people get arrested for. Those typically remain illegal because they're considered a public nuisance.

What legalization actually means is legalizing brothel ownership, escort services and things like advertising sexual services openly. In other words, what is being legalized is makjing money from prostitution by controlling a business that employs or takes money from sex workers.

And every time this happens, there are some consequences. Most notably, demand for sexual services rises enormously, but the supply of people (particularly women and trans people) willing to actually do the work generally does not. There are not a huge mass of people clamouring to work in brothels. Those who do end up working in brothels are typically either immigrants, who are brought in specifically to work in the sex industry, or people experiencing financial hardship who see it as a temporary solution. A few people who work in the sex industry end up liking it, I know quite a few people who did sex work or thought seriously about it and for most of them it was a pretty good and empowering decision at the time. But what most of them found rewarding was not only the financial reward, but the freedom. The more forms of rent you have to pay, and the more beholden you are to a business which expects financial return on your work because it has rent and salaries to pay, the less that freedom exists.

Now you might say, well that's fine, as long as the rules are enforced the market will just sort out the labour shortage. But what happens when demand rises but supply does not? If prices were to rise, then it would become unaffordable to many people, but those people still have demand, so where do they go? Who meets their demands?

Legal brothel ownership and organised crime are not entirely separate issues. If they were, it wouldn't be necessary to screen legal brothel owners for previous human trafficking convictions. The people who will inevitably end up running and profiting most from a legal sex industry are often the same people who were doing it before. Except, it becomes far, far more profitable because of demand, and far safer from legal scrutiny.

In short, the sex industry is capitalism. Capitalism is not a nice or benevolent system. It does not exist to protect the right of workers, nor does it inherently place any value on the rights or quality of life of workers. If you create a highly regulated legal industry, people will escape regulation by creating an illegal industry, just on a much larger scale than before.

There's this idea (and bear in mind a lot of discussion of the legal sex industry comes from PR) that legalizing prostitution will move people off the streets and into brothels where they will be safe and protected. That may occasionally happen to individuals, but the reality is that really vulnerable people will still end up on the streets (in greater numbers), because they can't afford to pay rent to work in a brothel, because they or the people controlling them can't afford or don't want the scrutiny that comes with regulation, and because ultimately the problems of prostitution are caused by demand. If you want cheap bodies, you can get them cheaper by abusing people.
Yes, brothels, providing services from home, escort services etc is legal in the Netherlands and women working in these sectors are free to choose where to work or how to advertise their services. They are all self-employed. Ofcourse if they have to rent to a room somewhere obviously those costs are for themselves but they are on no one's payroll. That is the way it's regulated. They can work or quit whenever they like. During the lockdown prostitutes even protested b/c they felt discriminated against.

But indeed like you say prostitution is diverse business. You have college girls doing it to earn something on the side and who find it exciting to women who do it for a living to big boobs and tattoos to even super models. There is something in every price range. Thousands of advertisements every day. There is way more supply than demand.

I also can't help but feel that the idea that access to another person's body is some kind of right to which everyone (everyone male at least) is entitled and which it is unbearably cruel to deny them has a slight whiff of inceldom about it.

The fact that someone can choose to give sex or physical intimacy to someone who would otherwise struggle to find companionship is a pretty positive and neat thing, but what's positive about it is the choice, and the merit of making that choice. The supposed injury or harm of not having easy access to sexual partners does not justify any kind of insinuation that a person is owed sex, and that the provision of sex is some kind of duty which women as a class owe to the male population.
Well ofcourse no one should ever offer sexual services against their will. I don't think 99% of clients would even want that. But if someone offers these services of their own free will I don't see why that should be illegal. That women aren't entitled to make their own choices is actually very patriarchal and I think one of the reasons to forbid prostitution is to control women's sexuality. The idea that women should marry and have babies not have sex for money.

But again, this is also just part of the picture. With a loneliness that runs deep in our society many men also just pay for company alone. They also fulfill a social role that goes beyond sex.
 
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