Why is western animation just for kids movies?

[Asuka Soryu]

The advantages of foreign animation! Eh, it's a heavy stigma around these parts that animation is for kids, even though it's not true.

Adult Swim has a couple animations for adults that are good, like: Venture Bros., Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law and others.

 

[omega 616]

snip

I was just making a rambly point, roughly outlining my point.

People who do watch subs, know what's going on, my point was they are treated like how casual gamers get treated by gamers... Know what I mean?

Like I said, I think there a lot of weeaboo type people out there.

 

[Kittyhawk]

You have a point, but its going to be a long haul to change the mindset of the powers that be at tv studios. South Park proved that you can go to extremes through animation and still entertain. Adult Swim has been doing a lot for animation of the years too.

There is hope for western animation. The Boondocks is a great animated show that is both funny and at time pushing on social/political commentary. I advise anyone to check the series out. Its a shame its not being made anymore because it was doing exactly what western animation needed, outside of the Disney/CG movie side of things. Many fear pushing such boundaries when animation is an expensive medium getting political etc, and the Boondocks comics got the same backlash from some when it was published years ago. Black Dynamite was another great animated show that looked great and was really funny.

Its clear that the kids animation market is very lucrative for studios, so they naturally bend that way. Adult animation takes a back burner as a result, especially with so much competition for adult eyes. The rise in popularity of anime did give studios a big kick up the backside in a positive way. The aftermath is positive and entertaining animated shows like Avatar and Avatar Legend of Korra, Adventure Time which entertain both kids and adults equally. Its a nice happy medium.

Also don't forget or discount animation that goes straight to dvd/BR. Stuff like Dead Space, Dante's Inferno are a mix of east and west. With each one steps can be taken to create better animation that isn't compromised by suits or networks. Perhaps crowd funding will have a hand in that positive change too. A nice nod goes to The Goon animated movie.

 

[Fox12]

Yeah, pretty much exactly what it says at the top. I think that there's a lot that we could do with animation if it wasn't aggressively marketed to kids and kids alone.

Not that I have a problem with media for kids. Hell, I love some of the stuff that's been made for kids (Batman the Animated Series, Avatar the Last Airbender, The Lion King, nearly everything Pixar's done).

I just think that there's a lot that western animation could do if it didn't always have to pander to the 7 to 12 demographic. I mean, if we're lucky, we could be looking at drama as poignant as the first 10 minutes of Up (which I don't think would have worked as well in any other medium). If nothing else, think about the special effects that we could have in an animated movie. Tarantino-esque gore could be as exaggerated as we like. Horror could be more surreal and possibly legitimately scare us with a monster that changes form. We could make a noir movie with the artistic style of Frank Miller's Sin City books.

So, what do you guys think? Why hasn't western animation for a more mature audience caught on (Simpsons/South Park/Family Guy aside)? And what are some other ideas that would be cool if animation appealed to more mature audiences?

There's barely even a market for "good" children's animation anymore. Disney has always been the driving force behind artistic animated movies, and they've effectively abandoned 2d animation. Their artistic success died out after the Disney Renaissance in the 90s. Pixar picked up the slack, but they got bought out by Disney, and now the whole studio is sinking faster than the Titanic.

The only mainstream animated adult shows are things like family guy and the simpsons, basically low brow humor for the common man. A truly great animated adult film could potentially change this, but what studio would even consider taking that kind of risk in this environment? The film would need some big name attached to it, and one massive marketing campaign. It would also need to be an instant classic, an unprecedented game changer. It would then need a strong follow up of other great films to legitimize the genre, instead of just making a single fluke success. In short, we would need a visionary.

Keep in mind that Disney was contractually obligated to release Princess Mononoke in theaters, one of the greatest animated films of all time, and they literally chose to let it die with absolutely zero marketing. They actually chose to take a financial hit instead of even ATTEMPTING to market a mature animated film.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's really hard in the current market. Of course, I hate modern cinema all together, so Hollywood really needs to get its act together. Now, I'm going to go splurge on Berserk, since Japan knows how to tell a proper epic fantasy story.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Yeah, I have to pick up the new Berserk Blu Rays. That anime is a great piece of work and very faithful to the manga. I really hope more of it gets made as that series is outstanding.

In a similar way to how big publishers hate to take risks on games and then end up in a creative rut, big studios are in turn running much tv and animation into the ground (this is also why many cable works are thriving without strings and more creative freedom). I totally agree that all it would take is a western studio creating an adult animated work with a strong story and if its good it could change the ball game. After many years, its become clear that we can't even rely on Disney to take a risk (which is exactly why they purchased Marvel and Star Wars). Their mandate might as well be don't make anything totally new.

Who will be brave, talented and strong enough try a new adult piece of animated work, though? Perhaps our only chance might via Kickstarter etc. We really need a western Makoto Shinkai. Better to go small and get things done than wait forever at Disney's gates for nothing but crumbs.

No Big Studios or Suits, Only Creative Free Animators.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

There's actually a pretty good documentary on youtube that goes a bit more in depth into this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6ZCXKTTHq4

Pretty interesting even if it does jump on some of the bigger controversy waves. That said, i love the summation of anime: it will continue to pander to increasingly small demographics until all that is left is porn.

Isn't that just the way all things will end? You start out with a nice idea, and by the end: porn.

The issue, from the view of a western otaku, is that they haven't expanded the market further. They are still stuck pandering to otaku; that's why there is so much moe stuff (people have an odd facination, can't say I don't have it but i don't like it all the same) and why dvd prices are so high (they know otaku will buy no matter what so they can set prices high for like 3 episodes [i would buy persona 4 the animation dvds if it was cheaper]).

On the other hand, porn may not be a bad thing

HEAR ME OUT BEFORE YOU LEAVE

porn is merely a description of how much sexual content is in a piece of media; many Japanese H-games and animes have had heavy themes and compelling stories despite the presence of sex (Key's works come to mind).

If they have to put sex in a work to get people in the door, so be it but if sex brings them in, charcters, themes and action can keep them in.

But I assume that you don't want it to descend into porn (i don't either given how much fanservice just for the sake of it with no thematic purpose makes me vomit), then they have to expand their market. Either they could try to adapt Japanese tropes in anime like the Yamato Nakeshiko and Weapon as part of Body (don't know official term but a lot of anime including gundam have a concept that a weapon is an extension of your might and morals) or they could try to experiment with other cultures (Toaru Majutsu no Index, while a bit stupid, does an interesting job mixing religions with other more Japanese aspects).

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

We do have adult cartoons. We have a bunch of them. They just aren't as prevalent as kids cartoons, or as profitable. That said I really want to create a hard sci-fi drama (with some action naturally) for adults that is animated. I think we can do with a cartoon that isn't strictly comedy or adult themed.

The funny thing is, this is pretty much the same way it is over in Japan. The vast majority of all anime produced is children's fare, and what gets localized abroad usually come from the late night animation blocks for adults. In many cases, adult anime series have fared better in foreign markets because of the larger audience for such stuff.

True, there is a lot of childrens anime as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. 80% childrens animation is still much much better then 99%. Noting that Japan also makes a fuckload more anime then the West do.

I still find it odd that Japan is willing to go with so much content that American shows would hate. Psycho pass has rape in the first episode and a murder in broad daylight in another, Ghost in the Shell is dealing with a lot of moral and human issues about robots (the episode with the sentient tachikoma and the movie director still hits me in the feels) and wasn't Gurren Lagoon, while meant for teens in America, was actually advertised for kids in Japan, it was even on their equivalent of saturday morning cartoon blocks?

I think that animation should not be a restrictive medium but one that is more free than live action to convey and demonstrate things that would be impossible to show in real life.

P.S. what do you think of Gundam Wing or 00 because those were a bit episodic with a common line

Edit: check out the anime section for What do you mean It's for Kids [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids/AnimeAndManga] to get more information on what i mean

 

[Trivea]

If you want to talk movies, the problem is that people see something animated and go "oh it must be for kids". An example of this is the first Shrek movie. Have you paid attention to any of the content? That movie was not for children, but because it was animated, it must have been. And then, because of all of the adult jokes in it, parents were offended because "how DARE you put that in a kid's movie?!" 9 is another example of this, as is The Nightmare Before Christmas which is claymation and therefore counts.

Western animation will always be "just for kids" until people stop writing off all animation as either for children or for "families" just by looking at it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

On another note, my ex once showed me this anime that should prove how mature it could be, and it was Elfen Lied, and it fucking sucked.

It was ugly, cruel, unnecesary violent, tasteless and made me barf in my mouth.
I'm not that well versed in anime, most of it seemed to me to be like Disney, for kids and adults.

But if Elfen Lied is what passes for "mature", then heck no, keep that crap away from me while I watch Beauty and the Beast for the xxxth time.

I want magic, I want feeling, I want beauty! Elfen Lied had none of that.

I'm not on board with Beauty and the Beast, but I'm with you completely on Elfen Lied.

I remember when it was new, literally a good half dozen or so of my friends talked about how amazing and dark and adult it was for bloody WEEKS. Eventually they brought it over to my place and showed me, and all it did was piss me off with its pretentious, hateful, "Lookat how hard I'm trying to shock you becuz I ADULT!" bullshit. And when it wasn't doing any of those things, it was boring me with its laundry list of cliches.

Fuck that show.

 

[Kittyhawk]

I think Japan has had anime so entrenched in its media that its a medium that they can bend to their will, and they will be the only ones who can help push other forms of animation forward. With Disney shutting down their hand drawn animation section that doesn't help but others will have to pass those skills on in some form.

Psycho Pass is a good thing because its the kind of adult anime that many japanese studios have stopped making. We got a lot of it in the 90, but it began to disappear in the 2000's. I think the chief director of Psycho Pass Katsuyuki Motohiro specifically said, that he disliked the safe moe crap that has crept into so much anime, where its more about pandering to otaku than telling a good compelling story. He created Psycho Pass to help break that negative chain from anime and kudos to him for it. There's nothing wrong with a tale with strong adult themes so long as they are handled well. I'd like to see more work like it and do check it out if you can.

It is a shame that western animation usually opts for the comedy route (while some do it well), than any deeper themes or topics. One day someone will break that mold, than just being subtle via kids animation. It'll have to be on Netflix or Kickstarter cause most established studios don't want to know or break that mold.

I think Kickstarter could a positive way forward for all anime after Trigger's success Little Witch Academia. Imagine for a moment anime with a story written by a western writer, but animated by pros from Japan or the U.S. this could be a way to tell better tales, even if they aren't long epics. That would be cool. Wishful thinking, perhaps?

Oh and as for Elfen Lied its not the greatest anime, but some will get a kick out of it. It could have been better without the harem cheese and pointless violence for violence sake. Interesting try, Japan.

Oh yeah, loving Avatar: The Legend of Korra and I plead to all anime fans or not, to watch it. Great animation (sure, not up to animes higher standard but still damn good), characters, world and writing. A shining light for western animated works. The last anime I watched that was as good was probably FMA:Brotherhood. Still vastly enjoyable whether you've seen the original Avatar series or not. (I hadn't, but I will watch it on Netflix). Put any anime biase you might cling to aside and enjoy a great tale.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

We do have adult cartoons. We have a bunch of them. They just aren't as prevalent as kids cartoons, or as profitable. That said I really want to create a hard sci-fi drama (with some action naturally) for adults that is animated. I think we can do with a cartoon that isn't strictly comedy or adult themed.

The funny thing is, this is pretty much the same way it is over in Japan. The vast majority of all anime produced is children's fare, and what gets localized abroad usually come from the late night animation blocks for adults. In many cases, adult anime series have fared better in foreign markets because of the larger audience for such stuff.

True, there is a lot of childrens anime as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. 80% childrens animation is still much much better then 99%. Noting that Japan also makes a fuckload more anime then the West do.

I still find it odd that Japan is willing to go with so much content that American shows would hate. Psycho pass has rape in the first episode and a murder in broad daylight in another, Ghost in the Shell is dealing with a lot of moral and human issues about robots (the episode with the sentient tachikoma and the movie director still hits me in the feels) and wasn't Gurren Lagoon, while meant for teens in America, was actually advertised for kids in Japan, it was even on their equivalent of saturday morning cartoon blocks?

I think that animation should not be a restrictive medium but one that is more free than live action to convey and demonstrate things that would be impossible to show in real life.

P.S. what do you think of Gundam Wing or 00 because those were a bit episodic with a common line

Edit: check out the anime section for What do you mean It's for Kids [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids/AnimeAndManga] to get more information on what i mean

I think the funniest part about Japanese animation for kids, and the manga that is based off of it is that while say Death Note was released in Shonen Jump, a magazine for teens, K-ON! was released in a seinen magazine.

Wait, how does that make any bloody sense?!?! The show that invovles a guy with a god complex killing people with a magic notebook is published for younger teenagers but a happy "we form a band" moe girl manga is publsihed for an older almost adult audience?

AGAIN, HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?!?!

But yeah, Japan's standards for what is expectable or not for kids is very different from America. My guess is that people there know that hiding it would make it worse so displaying it with proper context (sometimes with fanservice anime providing the counterargument) is better than just censoring it

 

[Kittyhawk]

I guess K-On was aimed at the moe older crowd, pity on those that bit that bait, cause guitars are cool.

Death Note is passable as a teen work. Many teen manga have death (sometimes suicide) in them, as its a topic they aren't afraid to cover. You'd only see that kind of similar stuff in the west via Image or other small label indie comics, as again the big publishers mostly shy away from it, outside of the spectacular hero stuff.

Nearest thing I'd compare to Death Note would be Final Destination, where its teens vs death. Death Note does the fantasy of such power over life in a great dark way. If you dig Death Note, also check out Liar Game and Doubt.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

We do have adult cartoons. We have a bunch of them. They just aren't as prevalent as kids cartoons, or as profitable. That said I really want to create a hard sci-fi drama (with some action naturally) for adults that is animated. I think we can do with a cartoon that isn't strictly comedy or adult themed.

The funny thing is, this is pretty much the same way it is over in Japan. The vast majority of all anime produced is children's fare, and what gets localized abroad usually come from the late night animation blocks for adults. In many cases, adult anime series have fared better in foreign markets because of the larger audience for such stuff.

True, there is a lot of childrens anime as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. 80% childrens animation is still much much better then 99%. Noting that Japan also makes a fuckload more anime then the West do.

I still find it odd that Japan is willing to go with so much content that American shows would hate. Psycho pass has rape in the first episode and a murder in broad daylight in another, Ghost in the Shell is dealing with a lot of moral and human issues about robots (the episode with the sentient tachikoma and the movie director still hits me in the feels) and wasn't Gurren Lagoon, while meant for teens in America, was actually advertised for kids in Japan, it was even on their equivalent of saturday morning cartoon blocks?

I think that animation should not be a restrictive medium but one that is more free than live action to convey and demonstrate things that would be impossible to show in real life.

P.S. what do you think of Gundam Wing or 00 because those were a bit episodic with a common line

Edit: check out the anime section for What do you mean It's for Kids [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids/AnimeAndManga] to get more information on what i mean

I think the funniest part about Japanese animation for kids, and the manga that is based off of it is that while say Death Note was released in Shonen Jump, a magazine for teens, K-ON! was released in a seinen magazine.

Wait, how does that make any bloody sense?!?! The show that invovles a guy with a god complex killing people with a magic notebook is published for younger teenagers but a happy "we form a band" moe girl manga is publsihed for an older almost adult audience?

AGAIN, HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE?!?!

But yeah, Japan's standards for what is expectable or not for kids is very different from America. My guess is that people there know that hiding it would make it worse so displaying it with proper context (sometimes with fanservice anime providing the counterargument) is better than just censoring it

Well in the Seinen Magazine's defence, K-On! is a 4 panel comic strip, not a regular manga, and in that fashion could be compared to webcomics or Garfield which makes slightly more sense why they let it take up space. I highly doubt if K-On! was a regular manga it probably wouldn't be in a seinen magazine. The author of Death Note has also stated that he intended Death Note to have a seinen feel. He also said that if Death Note had actually been seinen, it would have focused more on society instead of the cat and mouse between L and Kira.

okay that makes a lot of sense. Personally, I still find it odd that Hideki Anno actually wanted Eva to be for kids (this was before the massive breakdown but the show still had a lot of stuff that normal american television would not allow for kids); That show still had a lot of blood and sexuality even before the Leliel or Azeral stuff (the orb/shadow and the mind rape angel for people who didn't do as much research).

Regardless, an argument could be made that we do need to make more "inappropriate" content available to the America cartooning space. Call it a bit of a wake up; I would think that we would want kids to know about evil and hardship and while Eva would be a bit much, Death Note or Full Metal Alchemist type content would be good.

 

[Julius Terrell]

Yeah, pretty much exactly what it says at the top. I think that there's a lot that we could do with animation if it wasn't aggressively marketed to kids and kids alone.

Not that I have a problem with media for kids. Hell, I love some of the stuff that's been made for kids (Batman the Animated Series, Avatar the Last Airbender, The Lion King, nearly everything Pixar's done).

I just think that there's a lot that western animation could do if it didn't always have to pander to the 7 to 12 demographic. I mean, if we're lucky, we could be looking at drama as poignant as the first 10 minutes of Up (which I don't think would have worked as well in any other medium). If nothing else, think about the special effects that we could have in an animated movie. Tarantino-esque gore could be as exaggerated as we like. Horror could be more surreal and possibly legitimately scare us with a monster that changes form. We could make a noir movie with the artistic style of Frank Miller's Sin City books.

So, what do you guys think? Why hasn't western animation for a more mature audience caught on (Simpsons/South Park/Family Guy aside)? And what are some other ideas that would be cool if animation appealed to more mature audiences?

I watched Batman: The animated Series when it aired on TV, and I NEVER though it was a kids show. Yeah, it aired during kids WB, but everything about that show didn't scream kids show to me. I was mature enough to know the difference.

On the whole, I agree with that you're saying. Surprisingly, there have been quite a few animated works not aimed at kids in the last few decades. I remember the old Superman: The animated series shorts that used to come on. They were really good. I just can't understand why it's cool to watch Disney, but everything else that's animated gets shit on by people. What the fuck is that all about? I mean people are adamant about watching Disney movies to such a degree that it nearly disgusts me.

I recommended Ghost in the Shell to a friend of mine not too long ago, and she didn't even watch the movie because it was animated. I mean seriously?? How can one of the greatest sci fi films I've ever seen be overlooked simply because of the medium that it uses to tell the story. How can a lot americans be THAT close-minded?

Edit: I used to watch space ghost Coast to Coast as a teen. Had me in tears every time. Venture bros.,Home Movies,King of the Hill. I also have to agree about The Simpsons and Family Guy not really being adult shows IMHO.

 

[FireAza]

Long story short, it's become part of the culture in Western society (TV Tropes calls it "The Animation Age Ghetto" which is a brilliant name)

We used to have a number of adult-orientated animation in the 30s and 40s, just look at the works of Tex Avery and early Warner Bros cartoons. But then in the 60s two things happened:
1) Hanna-Barbara discovered a number of tricks to make lots of animation for cheap
2) Meddling parent groups and politicians started regulating what could be shown on TV and in the cinema and they wanted everything to be family-friendly

The result? Decades of squeaky-clean animation being produced for kids and generations who have grown up thinking that animation is for kids. Woe be to the man who tries to challenge this by making adult-orientated animation, you end up with the same situation video games face. Where Joe Average thinks when a mature game comes out, that people are trying to corrupt the children, because video games are for kids, but this content is not child-friendly.

 

[saragomsa]

you have made a nice point, but the thing adults in comparatively to children don't need much attraction. The purpose for using it more to children film is to attract them and make it more good for them http://www.bloggersjoy.com/a-short-history-of-animation-in-hollywood/