Why Makeb Hits LGBT Players So Hard

[exobook]

After Kotor 2, I honestly doubt 'family friendly' is an apt description of anything Star Wars.
Nevermind all the genocide and the ewok cannibalism and whatnot.

Yes but I'm certain that The Old Republic has attempted to retcon or ignore all of those great dark bits of the plot to that game. Mainly the very interesting idea that Revan fell to the dark side to protect/fight against the sith. In STOR it's no, the sith lord corrupted them and then they caught sith cronic backstabbing disorder.

Really I wouldn't be suprised if they forced the developers to cut some much out of the game just because it was so un-star wars.

And I loved it

 

[JaceArveduin]

Please don't bring up KT books in a Star Wars thread. I'm still trying to pretending her SW books don't exist and you messing with my delusions, thanks.

Hmm? Are you hating on the Commando books, or the other books?

 

[Something Amyss]

Which is kind of amusing when you think about it:
Snow White - young girl runs away from home to live with seven strange men, and is then sexually assaulted while unconscious by another complete stranger who she promptly goes to live with.
Sleeping Beauty - young girl is forced into an arranged marriage, kicked out of her home to be brought up by foster parents, then sexually assaulted while unconscious by a man she'd only met once.
Cinderella - young girl is subject to domestic abuse, marries man she met once for a few minutes based on shoe size.
The Little Mermaid - young girl stalks innocent man, nearly destroying her entire country and killing him in the process, marries about two days after actually meeting him for the first time.

Disney has some pretty interesting standards for what is considered a good role model.

After each and every one of those, I want to add, "you know, for kids!"

 

[Xanex]

Please don't bring up KT books in a Star Wars thread. I'm still trying to pretending her SW books don't exist and you messing with my delusions, thanks.

Hmm? Are you hating on the Commando books, or the other books?

Every book that she Mary Sues that crap outa the mandos. Which boils down to everyone single one of them.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

What I find fascinating is that people actually care about virtual relationships in an MMO. If you want to have a virtual relationship in an MMO, you might as well start one with a real player from your guild or something.

Also, Bioware romances are shitty because they forgot how to write good characters after they wrapped up Mass Effect 2.

 

[JaceArveduin]

Please don't bring up KT books in a Star Wars thread. I'm still trying to pretending her SW books don't exist and you messing with my delusions, thanks.

Hmm? Are you hating on the Commando books, or the other books?

Every book that she Mary Sues that crap outa the mandos. Which boils down to everyone single one of them.

Well... when you put it that way, aren't most of the main characters in the Star Wars Universe Mary Sues?

As for the clones, I'm about 90% sure it's canon that they're genetically modified to be stronger smarter etc.

 

[mikespoff]

Interesting article, but I have to question this statement:

"...civil unions inherently hold members of the LGBT community apart from the rest of the populace by creating a separate, and therefore unequal, category..."

I disagree that civil unions are inherently "unequal" just because they are separate from marriage. If they have the same legal standing, I think that it is a superior option than trying to re-define marriage.

It is useful to have a term for a faithful, monogomous life-long relationship between a man and a woman, which creates an environment in which to bear and raise children. That term is "marriage", and that relationship is recognised as having certain legal implications and protections.

If you want to have equivalent legal standing for a faithful, monogomous, homosexual relationship, that is a legitimate discussion within society. But to insist that such a relationship be brought under the term "marriage" only makes ambiguous a term which was previously clear and specific.

Why can't the word "marriage" be re-defined? "Marriage" used to mean "one man owning as many women as he wants", but the definition has changed hugely since then. Changing "a man and a woman" in your example to "two adults" would be a comparatively minute change.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. The word "marriage" is derived from Anglo-French and dates from the late thirteenth century. For the last thousand years of western civilisation, the concept has been pretty much unchanged, and thus the word has always had a clear meaning. Moving from a relationship which forms the basis of a family (i.e. a man and a woman, since that's what's needed to produce children) to any arbitrary pairing of adults is not a "minute change".

 

[SonOfMethuselah]

By that logic, infertile couples should not be allowed to call their unions "marriages" either.

And "Marriage" has not been "pretty much unchanged" since the middle-ages. For one, you can no longer marry a 12 year old. Secondly, women no longer have their husband chosen by their fathers. Thirdly, women no longer have to give up all their property to their husbands. Fourthly, dowries are now pretty much non-existent.

Well, there, you're describing the institution of marriage, which, yes, has changed quite drastically. I think what he was referring to, though, was the actual working definition of the term 'marriage,' which has 'always' been used to describe a 'lifelong,' 'blessed,' union between a man and a woman.

OT: I just read an article by Jim Sterling on Destructoid about this: I hadn't heard about it before. I'm not really surprised at the reaction its getting. The fact that there were gay relationships in the Dragon Age games did cause a little bit of a fuss, as I recall, and the presence of a homosexual male relationship option in Mass Effect 3 caused a stir, as well. To my knowledge, the first two ME games only had homosexual relationship options available to female characters, because asari. And maybe Miranda, I think? But she was genetically altered, so I don't know if that should count or not.

I'll be honest, and say that, so far as all these issues are concerned, I may be part of the problem. I have no problem with the LGBT community, but it's not like I parade support around, either. At this point in my life, when there are issues that are so much bigger than me, I kind of tend to let them skirt by. I don't mean to be selfish, but I'm just at a place where I have to worry about where I'm going, before I can worry about helping others get to where they want to be, you know?

As to the issue at hand, though, I don't really know what to think. On one hand, I think Bioware made a huge misstep, here. They knew this was a sensitive issue, and they, and that title especially, aren't really in a position to generate anymore ill-will. One of these mutually-disappointing compromises was pretty much the worst move they could have made. It might actually have done them more good if they had worried about stabilizing the rest of the game first, before opening up this issue again.

At the same time, though, this is something they promised, and the fact that it's taken so long to implement is definitely not good. If it was a promise, and a promise made before the game was released, when they still had the weight of the entirety of their resources behind them, then it should have been there, if not at launch, then alongside the first big update. It wasn't, so I understand why the community is upset.

Poor Bioware. I really do like them, still, and I think they genuinely mean well. They just can't seem to do anything that doesn't draw ire, these days.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, there, you're describing the institution of marriage, which, yes, has changed quite drastically. I think what he was referring to, though, was the actual working definition of the term 'marriage,' which has 'always' been used to describe a 'lifelong,' 'blessed,' union between a man and a woman.

You're artificially trying to split the two, but if you want to go there, the definition of marriage was originally common-law specific. At least, if you're referring to the English root. In other languages, it goes back further but did not 'always' mean anything of the sort.

It sounds like you're trying to play both sides against the middle here.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

I'm surprised the word "segregation" wasn't used once in this entire article. So I, an LGBT person, will cry foul what makes me most pissed off about Makeb, whether it was intentional or not.

SEGREEEGAAATIIIOOOOON

...I mean, look, I know it's a temporary solution 'n all? But how did they not get the idea that putting all the LGBT people of the universe onto the one planet screams segregated community? And then, even if they did get that idea, how did they not quantify that it would be just slightly sending the wrong message? It's not outright offensive, and I can't attribute it to malice or stupidity because Bioware have their hearts in the right place. But wow. Didn't think that one through, eh?

Oh wow, what a horrible survey.
1. Bisexuals are not even represented.
2. How about considering all those who have had a "homosexual experience" but do not self identify as gay or lesbian?
3. Self identifying as gay in large parts of the US will get you killed or beaten or sent to brainwashing camp. This creates a LOT of closet cases who will not even admit what they are in an anonymous survey, and sometimes refuse to even admit it to themselves.
If the number is 2% in this survey, I certainly believe the 10% estimation

Also, prooobably good to keep in mind that Bioware is a company that ships games internationally. So citing American numbers either way doesn't rule out the fact that the LGBT people of, I dunno... off the top of my head... Sweden? Yeah. Sweden. LGBT players in Sweden probably feel just as bad. (Oh man I looked it up, apparently Sweden is one of the most LGBT friendly places in Europe, and the first to declassify homosexuality as a disease. That's fun! I like learnings!)

 

[SonOfMethuselah]

You're artificially trying to split the two, but if you want to go there, the definition of marriage was originally common-law specific. At least, if you're referring to the English root. In other languages, it goes back further but did not 'always' mean anything of the sort.

It sounds like you're trying to play both sides against the middle here.

That certainly wasn't my intention. What I was saying was that some of the stuff you mentioned originally, (the dowry, the father choosing the husband, the woman losing the rights to her possessions) aren't (or weren't, as the case may be) intrinsically linked to being married as a concept.

Maybe my making a distinction between the institution of marriage and the definition of marriage was wrong, but that was the idea I was trying to convey.

 

[Dastardly]

Why Makeb Hits LGBT Players So Hard

Old Republic's "gay planet" mimics real-world frustrations.

Read Full Article

BioWare has, historically, been more "miss" than "hit" in their portrayal of same-sex relationships. This is simply another example of that failing. What surprises me is their inconsistency. On one hand, they make many of the "standard" mistakes:

- Relationship = Sex. Giving a character the option of a one-off sex scene (usually implied) with another character of the same sex is supposed to suffice for a relationship. This poses several problems, not the least of which is that the content can be seen as more about titillation than equality (see: Liara/FemShep in Mass Effect).

- Gays are lascivious. A homosexual character, if openly so, is excessively demonstrative of this, becoming all about some hot, hot sex. This demonstrates the misunderstanding that homosexual people must define their lives by their sexuality (rather than allowing it to simply be part of them), and that they must exhibit that sexuality by indiscriminately having sex with any and all comers.

- Sexuality flips like a switch. Most of the time, the character with this option is conveniently "flipped" to the required sexuality. This is different from bisexuality, which also occurs in BioWare characters. This one's tricky. On the surface, it seems to run opposite of what the above mistake was doing... but really, it worsens it. In this case, sexuality is no longer a very personal part of someone's character, but is rather a shallow preference for who they want to sleep with.

These mistakes are nearly always unintentional, and usually well-meaning. They're just fundamentally flawed. And then, on the other hand:

- Mass Effect's Steve Cortez was homosexual, but this wasn't revealed through parading the fact, sleeping around, or through anything sexual at all. It was revealed through his grief over his husband. This is a great example of the inclusion of same-sex coupling in a game. Here we have a character that is exclusively gay, not having sex on screen, and not sexually available to the player character.

In this case, it was a major mistake from top to bottom. This is one of those moments when BioWare should have remembered that you either need to do it right, or don't.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Not by Disney's standards.

Actually that's changing. I think there's either some new blood in the Disney execs, but whatever it is, it's notable. First there's this:

People complaining about Disney: while they probably aren't going to come out in support in a major press release, Disney still offers same-sex Magic Kingdom weddings and openly hires homosexual employees.

Which is awesome.

And then, there's "Once Upon A Time" - a show where the Hero is a single mother, there is blatant and frequent homo-eroticism (granted, nothing has 'officially' happened yet, but that brings me to), and has a massive gay and lesbian following. Several of the actresses are openly bisexual, which may explain some of the "chemistry" on set.

Oh, for those who haven't seen it, it's a show about Disney Princesses kicking ass. Season 2 opens with Snow White putting an arrow into a troll's face at point blank range and Mulan decked out in Samurai armor and with a heavily implied lesbian crush on Sleeping Beauty. Yes, this is a real show, made by Disney.

 

[wulf3n]

I don't think this is an issue with bioware as much as it is EA or Lucasarts. Like it or hate it, Bioware have at least tried to think of the LGBT community in pretty much all their games since KOTOR.

 

[ben-]

A gay planet makes sense, full of gay olympics and pride festivals. People wanting to be surrounded by those who feel the same way as them.

Im sure you can find a planet full of whores and a planet full of thieves butchers and scammers too.

 

[Nieroshai]

Why can't bioware pull it off as well as Bethesda has done in the last few games... It's just, there. It's not trumpeted, it's not pushed, it's not a binary GAY or NAY at some point in building character relationships... in both new vegas, and to a slightly lesser extent, skyrim, it's just there. There are some characters, well written, great characters. They happen to be l/g/b- you only really find this out if you learn enough about them as a person, talk to them, find out about their past, etc, like how it is for the most part in real life. Veronica and Arcade are probably two of the best written gay characters I've ever seen, especially the backstory with Veronica and Christine at the Brotherhood, and how that gets expanded upon when you meet that character in an expansion.

Bioware, seriously, take notes. Oh yeah, EA. That explains a lot.

Bethesda... hasn't. Everyone in Skyrim is bi. Every prostitute in Fallout 3 is bi. In FO:NV, their sexuality is determined by your chosen sexuality perk, so they might as well be bi. At least, in Bioware titles, preferences exist, and gay characters can still be characters without becoming exclusively love interests and be valuable party members. Yes, even Anders. He's not a manwhore, he's vulnerable. And loves kittens.

 

[Nieroshai]

What I find fascinating is that people actually care about virtual relationships in an MMO. If you want to have a virtual relationship in an MMO, you might as well start one with a real player from your guild or something.

Also, Bioware romances are shitty because they forgot how to write good characters after they wrapped up Mass Effect 2.

You must mean ME3 specifically, which does suppose you carried over a romance.

I don't like the idea of TOR relationships either, unless it's with a companion npc, or an unstated relationship with one of your other toons a la Legacy.

 

[Nieroshai]

I'm surprised the word "segregation" wasn't used once in this entire article. So I, an LGBT person, will cry foul what makes me most pissed off about Makeb, whether it was intentional or not.

SEGREEEGAAATIIIOOOOON

...I mean, look, I know it's a temporary solution 'n all? But how did they not get the idea that putting all the LGBT people of the universe onto the one planet screams segregated community? And then, even if they did get that idea, how did they not quantify that it would be just slightly sending the wrong message? It's not outright offensive, and I can't attribute it to malice or stupidity because Bioware have their hearts in the right place. But wow. Didn't think that one through, eh?

Oh wow, what a horrible survey.
1. Bisexuals are not even represented.
2. How about considering all those who have had a "homosexual experience" but do not self identify as gay or lesbian?
3. Self identifying as gay in large parts of the US will get you killed or beaten or sent to brainwashing camp. This creates a LOT of closet cases who will not even admit what they are in an anonymous survey, and sometimes refuse to even admit it to themselves.
If the number is 2% in this survey, I certainly believe the 10% estimation

Also, prooobably good to keep in mind that Bioware is a company that ships games internationally. So citing American numbers either way doesn't rule out the fact that the LGBT people of, I dunno... off the top of my head... Sweden? Yeah. Sweden. LGBT players in Sweden probably feel just as bad. (Oh man I looked it up, apparently Sweden is one of the most LGBT friendly places in Europe, and the first to declassify homosexuality as a disease. That's fun! I like learnings!)

The Republic is a morally skewed sometimes Lawful Good but mostly Lawful Neutral in practice society. This could be Bioware not walking on eggshells for once and inserting some grim into Star Wars, by showing what the Republic would do: purge any "wrongness" in society. We've well established through the campaign that the Republic's biggest difference from the Sith is that generally genocide is not okay.

I could be giving Bioware too much credit, but how often in Star Wars does sex even come up? And how often do we see men looking misty-eyed at each other? Sexuality has just never been a Star Wars issue.

 

[Something Amyss]

That certainly wasn't my intention. What I was saying was that some of the stuff you mentioned originally, (the dowry, the father choosing the husband, the woman losing the rights to her possessions) aren't (or weren't, as the case may be) intrinsically linked to being married as a concept.

I wasn't the one speaking prior. However comma, I'll point out that marriage entered into English from a middle French term in which the concept of a dowry was married (no pun intended) to the concept of marriage.

What wasn't brought together in blessed union was the concept of holy matrimony.

Your statement fails on almost every level.

 

[SonOfMethuselah]

I wasn't the one speaking prior. However comma, I'll point out that marriage entered into English from a middle French term in which the concept of a dowry was married (no pun intended) to the concept of marriage.

What wasn't brought together in blessed union was the concept of holy matrimony.

Your statement fails on almost every level.

Hmm.
Well, then, I humbly submit to an authority greater than my own, and apologize to anyone who may have scoffed at my woeful ignorance. I shall heretofore cease in any and all discussion until I thoroughly verse myself in whatever subject I happen to be speaking about.

*exits conversation*