Why new Dante and new Lara are a problem.

[BENZOOKA]

Because I have nothing else to contribute to discussion that hasn't already been said.

Things change. Get over it.[/QUOTE]
Sure, go ahead.

All I see is elitism and nostalgia. Reminds me of another thread, made by the very same OP, about the continuing option brought up in arcades and how it "ruined" everything. Someone made excellent points in very lengthy and comprehensive posts invalidating everything the OP was rather blindly complaining about. Yet the same OP refused to acknowledge any other view or even facts about things he had an opinion.

Debating with this OP is a waste of time.

I've only played the original Tomb Raider on PC, and not a single Devil May Cry.

 

[ultrachicken]

They can redesign the look of the characters as much as they want, but both of these avatars have slightly less of a personality than wallpaper paste. A true overhaul would give them depth and the appearance of some recognizable human trait rather than shoot this, steal that. So rather than get pissed at the developers for changing the look, why not get pissed off at them for never making a true character rather than a 3D rendered cardboard cutout.

I don't know about Dante, but I'm guessing you don't know a lot about the new Lara, because the Devs are trying to give her some serious personality overhauls. The new Tomb Raider game isn't even about stealing anything, it's about trying to get away from an island.

 

[ArchAngelKira]

Can I have a picture of bpoth new Dante and Lara please?

 

[Necromancer1991]

Can I have a picture of bpoth new Dante and Lara please?

Here you go

Personally I LOVE the new design for Lara, she still looks good and personally she's been needing a redesign (I can still look at the two side by side and see a resemblance. I mean she's still attractive without looking TOO artificial. It gets 2 thumbs up from me

That dante design on on the other hand is crap IMO, it looks NOTHING like the old design, in fact I feel uncomfortable even calling him dante, I'll call him Crazy Steve!

 

[Thaius]

I thought stuff like this didn't matter to you. Isn't the very act of caring about the character a betrayal of your "only gameplay" philosophy?

All the stuff I mentioned here is part of the "gameplay" Thaius.

Um... how is any aspect of character design part of gameplay? What the character you're playing looks like is purely an artistic touch; it does not affect how the game is played in the slightest. Nor does the personality of the character. Replace Lara Croft with Link, give the game the same mechanics, and the gameplay will not change even though Lara now looks like the Hero of Time. Character design is a purely artistic process, affecting the visual and narrative presentation of the game. How does it affect gameplay in the slightest?

The artistic aspects of a game as you put it are actually extremely influential towards both the design of the game's play and the developer's creation of the mechanics. Figure Skating is a game that is excelled at by engeneering the most aesthetically pleasing routine. Some similar videogames like Rock Band are built around rewarding a fixed routine that produces ideally the best aesthetic experience. Other games, notably Devil May Cry have the beauty of the routine as secondary to other paramators the game uses to judge you performance. Their are videos all over YouTube of DMC being played for the optimization of the artistry in performing different moves in tandem. This applies even to the most casual players in any game, everyone will feel incentive to do what they like seeing. Developers will even optimize the game to match aesthetics with the overall design and hence an impovershed visual design has wide reaching effects (The new Lara has a trembling quick timer event for God's sake) . Likewise properly designed aesthetics can influence the dynamisism of the games design strikingly (See ZUN's danmaku patterns.)

Really though, the seperation of artistic aspects with mechanics is a false dichotomy. All parts of a game's design are mechanics. Its rules embedded in the game's code. In Baseball the umpire must yell "strike one" just as Cloud must yell (in text form) "Aeris!" Some of these mechanics are far more important than others obviously. But this topic isn't about the subject being supremely important. Whether it is trivial or not it is still worth discussion from me and others as long as people have interest in it.

See, I agree entirely. I just don't understand how that came from the keyboard of the same person who said this mere months ago.

I don't just not care about art. I want it eradicated from games. Art is not just worthless to games but is also ruinous to them. Games that focus on graphics or story or message will inevitably lose focus on the things that matter. Art is seperate from games and you yourself reinforce it every time you bring up meaning or narrative or any other things which are NOT NECESSARY TO GAMES AT ALL. Even a child understands how different basketball (a game) and the Mona Lisa (art) are. It's common sense! One is a challenge to overcome and the other is something you enjoy looking at or listening to. Why is there a need to combine these things? Because one is more highly regarded than the other? Lets just be like the ancient Greeks; they had their great works of art and had the Olympics.

Competition is the only way games can gain cultural legitimacy because that is the only merit necessary to GAMES.

So did something change since then, or is there some way that this is not hypocritical?

 

[Iron Mal]

Change is certainly a bad thing when it goes out to undermine and betray the style of its predecessors.

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/of_genocides_and_reinventions/

For all the insinuation of mindless nostalgia ITT it seems like there is a sense of mindless progressivism in some of these replies (change is good, everything should change.)

Oh good, you posted another article, just because someone has written it online doesn't mean it's any more valid (we're talking about video games here, a form of entertainment, everything is subjective).

How precisely does these new designs 'undermine and betray' anything about the old games?

Lara simply looks younger in her new iteration, she was supposed to be a 'female Indiana Jones' according to her original creator, and she still looks like the rugged adventurer type (she just doesn't sport cleavage that would make a glamour model green with envy anymore), she's still adhering to the style and spirit of the Tomb Raider games, she's just been made more human and less 'awkward jumping gun turret with DD's'.

Dante's new design still keeps many aspects of his original look (red jacket, dark trousers and gloves accompanied by a large sword and handguns), all that's changed is his hair colour and he looks a bit dirtier and more evil (something that I would assume would come naturally to a character who is supposed to be demonic in origin), he actually looks more demon-like in the new design than he does in the old one (which surely is actually sticking closer to the style and narrative, right?).

It just seems that people have a railroad spike up there arses about the whole 'he doesn't have white hair' thing, is that really a huge problem?

 

[Halo Fanboy]

snip

When I made that post I was using the term "art" as it is understood by the art game peddlers and people who seek "cultural legitimacy" in games. The correct and noble use of visuals adds to a reinforces the games ruleset and lend a sense of immersion and viscerality to the proceedings, while the detrimental "art visuals" with symbologic imagery and purposely repugnant designs are what should be looked down on. Even more so if they are the focus of the game.

Sorry if I mislead you, but I think I did say somewhere in that topic that graphics are important so that could have been a clue.

Change is certainly a bad thing when it goes out to undermine and betray the style of its predecessors.

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/of_genocides_and_reinventions/

For all the insinuation of mindless nostalgia ITT it seems like there is a sense of mindless progressivism in some of these replies (change is good, everything should change.)

Oh good, you posted another article, just because someone has written it online doesn't mean it's any more valid (we're talking about video games here, a form of entertainment, everything is subjective).

How precisely does these new designs 'undermine and betray' anything about the old games?

Lara simply looks younger in her new iteration, she was supposed to be a 'female Indiana Jones' according to her original creator, and she still looks like the rugged adventurer type (she just doesn't sport cleavage that would make a glamour model green with envy anymore), she's still adhering to the style and spirit of the Tomb Raider games, she's just been made more human and less 'awkward jumping gun turret with DD's'.

Dante's new design still keeps many aspects of his original look (red jacket, dark trousers and gloves accompanied by a large sword and handguns), all that's changed is his hair colour and he looks a bit dirtier and more evil (something that I would assume would come naturally to a character who is supposed to be demonic in origin), he actually looks more demon-like in the new design than he does in the old one (which surely is actually sticking closer to the style and narrative, right?).

It just seems that people have a railroad spike up there arses about the whole 'he doesn't have white hair' thing, is that really a huge problem?

Firstly that guy who made that article is the owner of the greatest spanish language game website ever so show some respect.

Secondly, the supposed improvements betray many key aspects of the chaacters in several respects. Lara's sexiness is diminished and her stregnth an adventurousness are replaced for the sake of a weaker more cowardly Lara. Dante has lost is trademark devil may care attitude and acts towards his enemies more brutally than stylisticly. These are all major changes that have go against their iconic designs.

 

[yellingatpixels]

okay. To the folks who are not in favour of a visual reboot...

Did you like various updates on famous superheroes? Batman and Spidey come to mind. I imagine there were comic book fans who were not happy as well.

I am not a comic fan, so I am just throwing this out there.

Or is there a difference between a comic and a game reboot?

 

[The_Prophet]

Long snip

Prequel, character development.
EDIT: Oh, it's not a prequel... derp. Still, my point stands for DMC V.

 

[ImprovizoR]

I like new Lara. She's hotter than ever IMO. And I like the new concept of Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider desperately needed a reboot. Dante on the other hand. For now I hate the new design. I hope it wont be a fail.

 

[StriderShinryu]

It's not just a matter of these new character designs and personalities are abysmal. Some people might even like them. Its just that the people who like these designs are the people who never enjoyed the character in the first place.

Or, you could be like me and be a long term fan of the TR series since the first on the PSX and actually quite like the new Lara design. Go figure.

 

[emeraldrafael]

It's not just a matter of these new character designs and personalities are abysmal. Some people might even like them. Its just that the people who like these designs are the people who never enjoyed the character in the first place.

And that's the problem! These new characters are a betrayal to the original fans of the series. The developers basically threw their hands up and gave up on developing the existing characters but found themselves unable to relinquish the use of the intellectual property. Its a blatant cash in to ride on the coatails of the franchise as a vehicle for the writers to insert their egotistically created anime fanfiction character into the leading role.

This a the potential start of a terrible trend in games but we are lucky about one thing. These new characters are so pathetic that noone with taste could possibly accept them. And the games look shitty as a whole. Lets hope these game are as lame as they appear to be so that this trend can be nipped in the bud.

Really now? hm...

First, character design is NOT the most important thing in a game. its gameplay. If character design were the most important thing, then DOA Beach Volleyball 63 would be dominating the shelves today.

Secondly, whats wrong with the games trying to reinvent themselves? There's been (quite) a bit of talking recently about games as art. If we keep sending out white haired asshole pretty boys and huge chested bitchy tomb raiders, that will never happen, because those two things are completely lacking in originality. Perhaps you've heard the phrase a picture is worth a thousand words?

You're telling me these:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/9/90123/1541155-untitled1if1_super.jpg
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/698/698380/tomb-raider-legend-20060324044356371.jpg
hint a more complex story that you are itching to explore and look like this is a serious medium deserving of its first amendment rights then these:
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/toushirou5550/NewDante.jpg
http://windows7themes.net/pics/tomb-raider-reborn.jpg

Thirdly, sometimes its good to give someone fresh and new the reigns. You know what happens when you dont? it stagnates. Then you get the bland Tom Raider games that are churned out to make money at the expense of degrading the idea of gaming as a serious medium.

I mean, I have played much of the Devil May Cry series admittedly, ButI played SMT Nocturne, and it had Dante in it as a playable character. He wasnt very emotionally/psychologically deep. As for the TOmb raider games... well.. I have played those and there's another old saying, "you can shine a piece of shit, but it will never be gold." They pretty much did everything they could with Ms. Croft. its about time that girl got a new imagining, she was showing her age.

Personally, both games make me want to play them more after seeing the character designs. Perhaps its just you holding onto the last bit of your past. Just let go. Change is good. Besides, developers dont care what YOU personally think.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

^ I would rather see a new franchise rather than having to see an old game series trying to latch on to a new audience by changing it tenants.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Franchise reboot. *Le sigh*

Better known as "Lets alienate the old sheep so we don't have to please them, and find a whole new herd of sheep instead!"
Sorry, did I say 'sheep'? I meant 'customers'. Though in this market there aren't many behavioral differences (we already saw how FF7 fans were treated).

That's what the marketers and execs who green-lit those games are thinking, and they know they're right. Because come launch day, the moans of a few pissed off old fans will be completely outdone by the new streams of revenue new players who aren't as familiar with the old games.

So why do these people not launch a new series if they know that they're deliberately alienating their old fans?
Simple; they know that the brand name is bound to bring in sales from that old crowd anyway, out of morbid curiosity if nothing else. Word of mouth sells games better than advertising, but the ironic thing is that you have to get that word started.

Oh and remember: In this business, there are no legal refunds. So once they move that inventory and you buy that game they've beat you, and there is nothing you can do about it besides go online and *****. (ASIDE: I can't blame anyone for deliberately forgetting DMC2, but that's the poster-child for brand abuse right there)

The truly stupid part? I know there are going to be new fanboys of the reboots. And they are going to turn around and say "This is so much better than the old stuff I've never played! Let me take the titles out of context like every other new asshole gamer/reviewer has in the last 20 years! How on earth could anyone ever have liked the old games? They look AWFUL!"
And this fanboy vs fanboy backlash will turn a few sales too, as the old fans now have to go out and rent/buy the new titles just to validate their opinion/argument.
(Think this never happens? Guess again. It's happening right now with Twilight.)

As for me, the only character of the two that I cared about was Dante. He was never deep or well really developed, but it was always fun to watch him do crazy stuff just to finish with a silly one-liner. He was one of those rare success stories of "Likeable jackass characters" that other developers at the time tried to copy (hi there, Uncharted) but couldn't quite perfect.
The new Dante looks like he's months constipated. Beyond that, I'm unsure of what direction DMC will take.

 

[SoulChaserJ]

I don't know about Dante, but I'm guessing you don't know a lot about the new Lara, because the Devs are trying to give her some serious personality overhauls. The new Tomb Raider game isn't even about stealing anything, it's about trying to get away from an island.

I'm trying not to be skeptical so I'll just say I believe it when I see it.

 

[MasterMongoose0]

For everyone who believes character designs don't matter much, look at God of War or Assassin's Creed. Those games are much more iconic because of brilliant character designs.

Would Ezio or Kratos be nearly as badass without their appearance? I doubt it.

I'm all for the Lara reboot, but HATE the DmC one. At least give him white hair (he better get it in the game at some point since its a prequelish thing)

 

[Sephychu]

Re-invented characters? Great.

Do you remember Devil May Cry 4? I thought it sucked. Too much of Dante can be a bad thing. I'm treating DmC as a new game with links to the old, and it looks promising in that regard.

i disagree with the "too much dante" part, he was only in 40% of the game the rest was nero and thats what i didnt like

Less that there was too much of him in the game, more that there have been too many games of his. They'd kind of lost his trail of character development.

 

[WorldCritic]

Well since there hasn't been much good from the Tomb Raider series in years and we haven't had a new Devil May Cry game in years, this could be what both series need. I'm not thrilled about Dante's new design, but I'm not losing sleep over it, and personally I like Lara's new design. Hell maybe Nintendo could take the hint and do some redesigning of their own. It could be interesting.

 

[Fuselage]

Oh my... they're redesigning characters to make them appeal to new audiences? What horror.

Come on. Character designs in games matter about as much as... erm... well, they don't matter much.

But in the end, Do you really want to be playing as this prick?

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

Oh my... they're redesigning characters to make them appeal to new audiences? What horror.

Come on. Character designs in games matter about as much as... erm... well, they don't matter much.

But in the end, Do you really want to be playing as this prick?

Spoiler

To be honest... no. No, I don't.

But if it's going to be a good game that I genuinely enjoy playing, I'll easily disregard that.

Unless he... like... talks. In a cutscene or something. That should never happen.

With that said, the new Lara Croft is, in my opinion, far superior to the old one in terms of looks.