"Why not just watch porn?"

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

I can tell you why people say that.

They think sexuality is a bad or unacceptable or indecent thing that should never be expressed in entertainment and thus, should only be displayed in its most hamfisted and inelegant form, solely for the utility of allowing people to easily get themselves off every once in a while.

Or perhaps they feel that it, unless it is used tactfully and with purpose, adds nothing whatever piece of entertainment you try to toss it into.

It's pretty clear cut: either you're using it to cause arousal (in which case it's porn no matter which way you slice it), or your doing it for some plot or theme-related purpose and the arousal is secondary (or unintended). In the former case, might as well just go watch porn. In the latter case, it can be evaluated based on how it creates (or fails to create) the intended effect with the audience; if it fails to create the intended effect, why is it there in the first place? It's not really a personal matter of decency or acceptability here, but rather a rational analysis of the situation.

If your primary goal is arousal, might as well just make/watch porn. You can watch softcore if penetration bothers you, or softcore hentai if you prefer anime. Or gee, I dunno, go find a partner if you want some intimate sexuality.

HSotD is the perfect example; it's pretty much softcore porn and has no other redeeming qualities. It's not even comedic in most cases; its all about "see how much fanservice we can cram into the next 20 minutes without being censored as hentai". Is it necessarily a bad piece of entertainment because of that? No, but "you might as well go watch porn".

Heh, okay, or you could let people watch what they enjoy and not try to tell them that what they find entertaining is illegitimate entertainment and they should just go watch porn instead.

It's as easy as not watching.

Edit: I've actually made all the arguments I feel like making in this thread and from what I remember, it keeps falling back to "what you like shouldn't exist because I don't think it should" every time.

In case you're wondering why I'm not very talkative about this subject anymore, it's just that it's hard for me to stay interested.

 

[DjinnFor]

Heh, okay, or you could let people watch what they enjoy and not try to tell them that what they find entertaining is illegitimate entertainment and they should just go watch porn instead.

You could also just let me say what I want to say and not try to tell me what is or isn't a good argument to make, opinion to hold, or action to take. That way you wouldn't be a hypocrite for cavalierly dismissing my post merely because I profess to make a statement implying I might know better than another person.

I find it funny that your sole argument is "Let people do or think what they want to, your opining is invalid because you aren't them". Because that would have precluded you from ever having posted this thread. You aren't me and so clearly you should just let me do what I enjoy and not try to tell me that what I say is illegitimate...

ITT: Lecturing me for lecturing others. Quality arguments not to be found here, apparently.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Heh, okay, or you could let people watch what they enjoy and not try to tell them that what they find entertaining is illegitimate entertainment and they should just go watch porn instead.

You could also just let me say what I want to say and not try to tell me what is or isn't a good argument to make, opinion to hold, or action to take. That way you wouldn't be a hypocrite for cavalierly dismissing my post merely because I profess to make a statement implying I might know better than another person.

I find it funny that your sole argument is "Let people do or think what they want to, your opining is invalid because you aren't them". Because that would have precluded you from ever having posted this thread. You aren't me and so clearly you should just let me do what I enjoy and not try to tell me that what I say is illegitimate...

ITT: Lecturing me for lecturing others. Quality arguments not to be found here, apparently.

........you're saying that by directly replying to someone who directly replied to me, I'm telling you that you should not say what you were telling me (even though that doesn't even count as "something that you enjoy")...? Did you expect me not to reply or to instantly agree with you?

You expected me not to give my opinion on whether or not your opinion is bad, your arguments are bad, or whether you should take a certain action in a discussion with opinions in it? Are you serious?

It's not exactly the same thing as people who can't let people enjoy their entertainment, since usually people don't run up to the nearest random guy to tell them about how they enjoyed their ecchi. What you did was try to start a conversation with your opinions involved, then apparently expect me not to reply with my own.

Also this part...

"Let people do or think what they want to, your opining is invalid because you aren't them"

...is wrong. That was not my point. My point was that just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people should not watch. I don't like Country Music, but I'm not going to tell people not to listen. I don't like gore, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell people not to watch gory movies and to look at gore porn online instead (websites that show mainly gorey images, gore video sites, etc).

Twisting words around to make other people sound like hypocrites isn't going to make your opinion any more valid, nor does it take attention away from you basically telling people that they shouldn't watch what they enjoy or should have a chance to because you don't find it entertaining or valid.

Your post actually seemed pretty self-defeating ("you should just let me do what I enjoy" says it all and actually makes you sound like a hypocrite ), but I can tell you really want me to talk with you, so why not.

It's pretty clear cut: either you're using it to cause arousal (in which case it's porn no matter which way you slice it), or your doing it for some plot or theme-related purpose and the arousal is secondary (or unintended). In the former case, might as well just go watch porn.

aaaand let's just take the simplest approach to this and make the exact same quote but put comedy there instead.

It's pretty clear cut: either you're using it to inspire laughter (in which case it's meaningless comedy no matter which way you slice it),

Like Fullmetal Alchemist, Regular Show, or Teen Titans Go.

or your doing it for some plot or theme-related purpose and the laughter is secondary (or unintended).

Like Joker in Batman: the Animated Series.

In the former case, might as well just go to a comedy club. In the latter case, it can be evaluated based on how it creates (or fails to create) the intended effect with the audience; if it fails to create the intended effect, why is it there in the first place? It's not really a personal matter of decency or acceptability here, but rather a rational analysis of the situation.

Except people normally just accept comedy as a part of entertainment, even sketch comedy or shows that come with segmented comedy scenes.

It's the exact same thing. Art takes all forms and follows the rules of the artist, not just the rules of one person.

That's the beauty of art. There are so many different perspectives, forms, and experiences. It can never get old because every artist is different. What you should realize is that there's always more intended substance (which people always pick up on, usually the people in the show's demographic) to art than its most recognizable feature. That's what separates ecchi or shows with fanservice from porn.

That's why I enjoyed Highschool of the Dead. I acknowledge there is more to the show than fanservice. There's so much more to it that made it a fun experience, like the characters, situation, suspense, interactions, etc.

That's why Highschool DxD is a fun show. While the fanservice is fun, that doesn't mean the plot magically doesn't exist or the characters magically aren't interesting.

I really enjoyed Ladies vs Butlers. The ecchi being a fun part of the show doesn't magically mean it wasn't funny anymore or that the imagination wasn't something to be appreciated.

When it comes to comedy, that's why I can watch Regular Show and have a different experience than I could ever get watching a Stand-up Routine.

Saying "just watch this instead because it gives a similar effect to one part of what you're watching" makes zero sense in this case, because that's just it. It gives a similar effect to only one part of what I'm watching. By telling me to watch porn instead of ecchi, you're willingly ignoring everything else and singling out one aspect of the entire show, then telling me to watch something that only intends to offer that one aspect in its most hamfisted and unimaginative form and nothing else.

If your primary goal is arousal, might as well just make/watch porn. You can watch softcore if penetration bothers you, or softcore hentai if you prefer anime. Or gee, I dunno, go find a partner if you want some intimate sexuality.

Comedy example again, except we can have mainly comedic television shows, movies, and all kinds of different entertainment and it would be accepted. They would still be different experiences and thus you wouldn't get the same feeling just watching stand-up comedy.

HSotD is the perfect example; it's pretty much softcore porn and has no other redeeming qualities. It's not even comedic in most cases; its all about "see how much fanservice we can cram into the next 20 minutes without being censored as hentai".

Really? Because that's.... a pretty terrible example. Guess the plot, comedy, characters, gore, danger, and zombies flew over your head?

If your rebuttal is "what plot?" theeeeen I guess you should go read a synopsis or something because if you didn't pick up on any of these obvious parts of the show, then you simply weren't watching/reading it or paying attention. I don't see much difference between it and other zombie-related entertainment in terms of plot.

What's funny is you wouldn't say "go to a comedy club!" if I were watching ZombieLand, even though that movie had a lot of comedy in it. All of the zombies, action, and danger were still there.

Is it necessarily a bad piece of entertainment because of that? No, but "you might as well go watch porn".

That doesn't make any sense at all, though. I was entertained by the entire experience that I could not get from porn (because of plot, ecchi, comedy, action, etc) and according to you, "it doesn't necessarily make it a bad piece of entertainment", yet I should just go watch porn, which isn't entertaining because it's nothing but explicit depictions of people having sex for the utility of being able to masturbate to it.

People don't watch ecchi for the same reasons they watch porn, so your argument seriously doesn't make any sense.

It actually kind of sounds like what I was talking about in my original post, to be honest. :/

Why do you single out sexuality or fanservice as something that isn't legitimate as a piece of an overall experience in entertainment, but not comedy or action? It's exactly what you're doing. Your strange interpretation of HSotD is evidence of that.

 

[DjinnFor]

You expected me not to give my opinion on whether or not your opinion is bad, your arguments are bad, or whether you should take a certain action in a discussion with opinions in it? Are you serious?

I expect you to be consistent. Hey, I find expressing my stupid, retarded opinions totally entertaining, who are you to judge?

What you did was try to start a conversation with your opinions involved, then apparently expect me not to reply with my own.

No, actually, you started it. You started a conversation by opining about the behaviors of others... about how people opining about the behaviors of others are meanies, or whatever it is you're trying to imply.

"Let people do or think what they want to, your opining is invalid because you aren't them"

...is wrong. That was not my point. My point was that just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people should not watch.

Since when was that your point? You might want to go back and reread what you actually wrote before you come and recite such an absurd statement.

Since when did I claim I "didn't like things", or use that as an excuse to claim other people ought not to do something?

Like I said, it's a rational analysis of a specific action: if you want arousal, sex is the answer. If you want to dunk a basketball, try jumping. If you want to sleep, I recommend a bed. There's no real need to utilize roundabout methods here, "just watch porn".

Your post actually seemed pretty self-defeating ("you should just let me do what I enjoy" says it all and actually makes you sound like a hypocrite )

Do you know what Verbal Irony [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Verbal_irony] is and how it can be deliberately used to emphasize a particular point? Because if not, I'm not sure you're old enough to be having a conversation on ecchi or porn.

aaaand let's just take the simplest approach to this and make the exact same quote but put comedy there instead.

Except the entire analogy falls flat on its face right there. Arousal is a chemical reaction in the genetalia, comedy is an emotional reaction in your brain. The two are very different reactions, and require different methods to create.

It's the exact same thing. Art takes all forms and follows the rules of the artist, not just the rules of one person.

Art being defined as "anything" is really just another way of saying art is defined as nothing.

That's why I enjoyed Highschool of the Dead. I acknowledge there is more to the show than fanservice. There's so much more to it that made it a fun experience, like the characters, situation, suspense, interactions, etc.

That's why Highschool DxD is a fun show. While the fanservice is fun, that doesn't mean the plot magically doesn't exist or the characters magically aren't interesting.

If HotD entertained you, then pretty much anything can entertain you, in which case by all means continue to watch paint dry if its that entertaining enough.

Guess the plot, comedy, characters, gore, danger, and zombies flew over your head?

I suppose when you toss enough pebbles into the air at once, a couple are bound to sail over my head... But most of them just drop unceremoniously to the floor at my feet.

People don't watch ecchi for the same reasons they watch porn, so your argument seriously doesn't make any sense.

So if the goal is not to be aroused, why is material that causes arousal deliberately included?

Why do you single out sexuality or fanservice as something that isn't legitimate as a piece of an overall experience in entertainment, but not comedy or action?

Because arousal isn't a social need like laughter is? They're two completely different things. You watch characters do epic things and read stories about wonderful adventures because it is a social need of human beings to identify with others and be a part of something meaningful. Same with comedy: you have a social need to feel content with your lot in life and listen to others recant their terrible stories or act stupidly and make you feel better about yourself. Entertainment is about satisfying these social needs in diverse ways, from storytellers, to authors, to animators and directors.

You jack off, get aroused, and have sex because you are satisfying a reproductive urge. Fanservice in otherwise normal entertainment is just unhealthy pseudo-"intimacy" where you delude yourself into thinking there's any kind of connection on both a social and a sexual level. It's an unhealthy stand-in for a real relationship. You deliberately deprive yourself of real intimacy, which is terrible for your mental well-being, particularly on developing minds like teenagers and young adults.

That's when you get shit like guys trying to marry a virtual character [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/96341-Japanese-Man-Marries-Videogame-Girlfriend]. Not a coincidence that shit happens in Japan where all the ecchi comes from.

But hey, you find that entertaining? By all means go have fun. But if you're still going to play catch with radioactive materials after being warned, don't come crying home when the doctors tell you that you have cancer. And cut the guy who recommended baseball some slack; he just assumed you weren't suicidal.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

I expect you to be consistent. Hey, I find expressing my stupid, retarded opinions totally entertaining, who are you to judge?

Not sure what you're trying to say here.

What you did was try to start a conversation with your opinions involved, then apparently expect me not to reply with my own.

No, actually, you started it. You started a conversation by opining about the behaviors of others... about how people opining about the behaviors of others are meanies, or whatever it is you're trying to imply.

What does this have to do with what I said? I posted in a discussion and expected people to reply with their opinions and you apparently didn't. :/

"Let people do or think what they want to, your opining is invalid because you aren't them"

...is wrong. That was not my point. My point was that just because you don't like something doesn't mean other people should not watch.

Since when was that your point? You might want to go back and reread what you actually wrote before you come and recite such an absurd statement.

I re-read my post and that's what I was saying.

I re-read everything I've said in this thread and that's what I've been saying.

It's okay to not like something, but don't tell people that what they like is illegitimate just because you don't like it.

How did you not get that?

Since when did I claim I "didn't like things", or use that as an excuse to claim other people ought not to do something?

Since the time you saw something you didn't like and declared it not worth watching for anybody, even the people who genuinely like it.

Like I said, it's a rational analysis of a specific action: if you want arousal, sex is the answer. If you want to dunk a basketball, try jumping. If you want to sleep, I recommend a bed. There's no real need to utilize roundabout methods here, "just watch porn".

If you want to laugh, go to a comedy club. Your point?

Welp, they have comedy clubs now. Why in the world am I watching Lucky Star?

If I want to laugh, why the roundabout method? I could skip the characters, their situations, and slice of life aspect and go right to the jokes!

Your post actually seemed pretty self-defeating ("you should just let me do what I enjoy" says it all and actually makes you sound like a hypocrite )

Do you know what Verbal Irony [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Verbal_irony] is and how it can be deliberately used to emphasize a particular point? Because if not, I'm not sure you're old enough to be having a conversation on ecchi or porn.

You do realize that's completely irrelevant to my age, right?

aaaand let's just take the simplest approach to this and make the exact same quote but put comedy there instead.

Except the entire analogy falls flat on its face right there. Arousal is a chemical reaction in the genetalia, comedy is an emotional reaction in your brain. The two are very different reactions, and require different methods to create.

All you've said is that one requires a different process in the body than the other. That doesn't make your argument valid.

It's the exact same thing. Art takes all forms and follows the rules of the artist, not just the rules of one person.

Art being defined as "anything" is really just another way of saying art is defined as nothing.

Bingo. You can't define it, so stop trying to make it follow your specific rules and no one else's.

When someone intends to create art, that's what they'll do. If someone intends to create porn, that's what they'll do.

That's why I enjoyed Highschool of the Dead. I acknowledge there is more to the show than fanservice. There's so much more to it that made it a fun experience, like the characters, situation, suspense, interactions, etc.

That's why Highschool DxD is a fun show. While the fanservice is fun, that doesn't mean the plot magically doesn't exist or the characters magically aren't interesting.

If HotD entertained you, then pretty much anything can entertain you, in which case by all means continue to watch paint dry if its that entertaining enough.

"What you watch is boring and I don't like it" is all you've said.

I'm not afraid to say that I enjoyed these anime.

Guess the plot, comedy, characters, gore, danger, and zombies flew over your head?

I suppose when you toss enough pebbles into the air at once, a couple are bound to sail over my head... But most of them just drop unceremoniously to the floor at my feet.

You not liking it doesn't mean those aspects of the show didn't exist.

People don't watch ecchi for the same reasons they watch porn, so your argument seriously doesn't make any sense.

So if the goal is not to be aroused, why is material that causes arousal deliberately included?

I don't think you even read my post. When people watch or read material that has ecchi, they're getting more than just arousal. They're getting a fun experience.

Why do you single out sexuality or fanservice as something that isn't legitimate as a piece of an overall experience in entertainment, but not comedy or action?

Because arousal isn't a social need like laughter is?

Wrong, sir. Laughter isn't a social need. Social needs on Maslow's Needs Hierarchy are things like love, friendship, and social interaction. Laughter feels good and makes you happy, but you don't need to do it. It's as useful in entertainment as ecchi, and they're both fun when added to the mix.

They're two completely different things. You watch characters do epic things and read stories about wonderful adventures because it is a social need of human beings to identify with others and be a part of something meaningful. Same with comedy: you have a social need to feel content with your lot in life and listen to others recant their terrible stories or act stupidly and make you feel better about yourself. Entertainment is about satisfying these social needs in diverse ways, from storytellers, to authors, to animators and directors.

wrong again.


en·ter·tain·ment
ˌentərˈtānmənt
noun
noun: entertainment

the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

I enjoy ecchi. It's done its job.

You jack off, get aroused, and have sex because you are satisfying a reproductive urge. Fanservice in otherwise normal entertainment is just unhealthy pseudo-"intimacy" where you delude yourself into thinking there's any kind of connection on both a social and a sexual level. It's an unhealthy stand-in for a real relationship. You deliberately deprive yourself of real intimacy, which is terrible for your mental well-being, particularly on developing minds like teenagers and young adults.

That's when you get shit like guys trying to marry a virtual character [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/96341-Japanese-Man-Marries-Videogame-Girlfriend]. Not a coincidence that shit happens in Japan where all the ecchi comes from.

But hey, you find that entertaining? By all means go have fun. But if you're still going to play catch with radioactive materials after being warned, don't come crying home when the doctors tell you that you have cancer. And cut the guy who recommended baseball some slack; he just assumed you weren't suicidal.

You don't honestly believe this, do you? So many claims that have no proof or research. You have absolutely no proof that ecchi = no relationship and you present it here as fact because one guy, who lives in a different culture than ours, who we do not know, who could have done what he did because of any reason at all, married a virtual person.

That won't work. Further, it does nothing for your original point that ecchi shouldn't exist because porn, because what he married was a girl in a dating sim, not an ecchi. In order for this to have the effect you wanted, you would have had to find a study that shows that ecchi has a correlation with dating trouble.

What you did was present to me one bizarre and unrelated case. You have no point here.