Why So: Anti-Elf?

[Bassik]

I did like the way they were in the Silmarillion. Not a dying race, characters with some real flaw, and they seem all the more human for it.

 

[Nieroshai]

All these elf cliches... you need a game that reinvents the elves to make them likeable. Ah the Witcher series... Nevermind they are terrorists in this one.

This. Elves just always fit into a single niche. In my current Pathfinder campaign, elves essentially fill the role of humans, except for the fact that they are more along the lines of the Fey Realm's humans, stuck on normal earth because of a rift in the realms.

 

[evilneko]

In the TES 'verse, mer (elves) are basically humans with pointy ears, no better or worse than the human races. Also in TES orcs are elves. Go wrap your head around that one. High elves are humans with pointy ears and a healthy dose of arrogance.

In AD&D elves sacrificed a point of constitution for one of dexterity, definitely no Sues there. IIRC in 3E this was upped to two points each way, ouch.

In most other portrayals I think the supreme arrogance they often display disqualifies them from being Sues. Well, maybe they could be Jerk Sues. But as a race they usually have some flaw that prevents them from taking over. Individuals could be pretty Suetiful though.

 

[him over there]

Simply because there has been a bit too many recently. They have become bland and stale because nobody does anything new with them. Maybe tolkien-esque fantasies should start either making up their own or at the very least use some more obscure and out there races, like driders.

 

[Dastardly]

Almost everywhere I hear mention of elves, it's in the negative sense. It feels like almost everyone hates elves in any setting, and I don't really get why. Is it because of how they are portrayed? I know I've seen more than my share of holier-than-thou High Elves and super-green Wood Elves, but I hate the archetype more than I do the species. Is it because they are so effeminate-looking? Really, I'm starting to feel like people are deliberately viewing them as effeminate just to mock them. Is it because of the "weak and frail" portrayals, meaning they are pitifully easy to squash? Who's to say you can't make a badass elf?

If you hate elves for some reason, please explain why. I sometimes feel like I'm the only person who likes to view them positively. Is it just that the anti-elf people are just a crapton more vocal about the matter?

Really, it's the fact that there's no reason whatsoever for the appearance and archetype to always be entwined, except for Tolkein Worship.

It's no different than if every story had to feature a tough-as-nails ex-military leader with an eye patch and gravely voice and dark past. You're basically having to endure the exact same character (in purpose and appearance) in multiple stories, and for no good reason.

Is there a reason a fantasy game can't feature Elves that are more like the old Christmas elves? Or some reason that Gnomes can't be the archetypal "perfect" race? (I at least appreciate that Skyrim made elves uglier, because that's how they would actually look to us, as humans.)

It instantly shows you exactly what kind of story you're dealing with: same old, same old.

 

[Blobpie]

The only elves i hated were the Thalmor....and only because they were rude to me ONCE.... so i killed them, and their friends, and their families and currently my character is trying to find a way of blowing up were they were born.

 

[DoPo]

In AD&D elves sacrificed a point of constitution for one of dexterity, definitely no Sues there. IIRC in 3E this was upped to two points each way, ouch.

So mechanically, they aren't Mary Sues, but that's the way they are depicted. Seriously - live for thousands of years (or fuck if I know how many), they are the very best in magic, they are the very best in archery, they are the very best in nature, they are very pretty (true, maybe not as pretty as some angelic beings, but compared to the normal races they are), the most sophisticated. That doesn't sound really flawed to me. Oh, and in 3rd edition (haven't played AD&D) they get a bunch of stuff for free. Compare to humans who only get a feat and a skill point (true, that not bad at all) but let me just quote what elves get:

- Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
- Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
- Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
- +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

Also, not mentioned - elves don't need to sleep, they just spent half that time meditating.

From crunch point of view, they aren't perfect, of course, but still pretty good. That longbow proficiency is nice, low-light vision is not darkvision, but better than the "nothing" humans get, the racial skill bonuses don't hurt and the automatic secret door detection isn't too shabby either. And immunity to sleep, plus a bonus to resisting enchantments. The biggest flaw the race has is the -2 Con, as that's 1 HP less per level.

In most other portrayals I think the supreme arrogance they often display disqualifies them from being Sues. Well, maybe they could be Jerk Sues. But as a race they usually have some flaw that prevents them from taking over. Individuals could be pretty Suetiful though.

So, because Bella is a bit clumsy, she isn't a Mary Sue? That's a negative trait, right there.

Besides, the elves' arrogance is seldom a true flaw. It's mostly used for flavour "Oh these perfect creatures who have mastered this and that, are arrogant." And that's it. Their arrogance is not usually further expanded upon. At most, that may be the reason why elves are secluded or just don't communicate with other species much. Oh and the elves will bicker with the dwarves - big deal.

However, they are totally justified in that - would you associate with men, if you could outmagic, outthink, outlive, outperform and outhippie them?

A bit relevant:

 

[Ramare]

I hate elves because I do.
I never liked elves, what with most of them either having (douche bag) players behind them, or being of the "holier-than-thou" archtype.

Playing Skyrim and having to deal with the Thalmor, still being snarled at by Dunmer (you'd think after all this time they'd get a better attitude towards other races, especially when they are the Godsdamned Outlanders), still being treated the same as any human race would by Bosmer (the only reason I dislike them is because they're firmly set in the "effeminate" archtype (and the Adoring Fan was just that annoying)), and I've always hated High Elves. In fact, I'm not even calling them by their proper name, out of disrespect.

Eh, just call me a racist Nord. It's what everyone else does.

[sup]Which is rather weird, since I have no problems with non-Nord humans, Khajiit, and Argonians. And only the High Elves and their Thalmor get my hatred (although in the former case, only when they open with hostilities), the rest I just don't really...trust.[/sup]

 

[Thespian]

I don't hate elves. I hate what they symbolize. When a writer brings elves into their franchise it usually means "I don't give a shit anymore."
Dear god, why do people latch onto this idea so much? What is it about this random combination of traits that makes it such a good species to pick? Because they aren't that great. Coming up with something just as good would be fine.

Could you imagine if all Sci-fi franchises used the same Dwarf-Elf-Orc set up? If three alien types, say, Vulcan/Wookiee/Dalek existed in all sci-fi franchises with barely any alterations?
Games like Mass Effect wouldn't have the fascinatingly diverse and fleshed out species they do.

 

[DoPo]

Eh, just call me a racist Nord. It's what everyone else does.

[sup]Which is rather weird, since I have no problems with non-Nord humans, Khajiit, and Argonians. And only the High Elves and their Thalmor get my hatred (although in the former case, only when they open with hostilities), the rest I just don't really...trust.[/sup]

Well, it's still racist, as you are discriminating a race. Racism doesn't mean you hate all races - you can only hate one. So the term is correct.

Still, a more correct term might be antielfism. Or something.

 

[Ramare]

Eh, just call me a racist Nord. It's what everyone else does.

[sup]Which is rather weird, since I have no problems with non-Nord humans, Khajiit, and Argonians. And only the High Elves and their Thalmor get my hatred (although in the former case, only when they open with hostilities), the rest I just don't really...trust.[/sup]

Well, it's still racist, as you are discriminating a race. Racism doesn't mean you hate all races - you can only hate one. So the term is correct.

Still, a more correct term might be antielfism. Or something.

Yes, I know, I wasn't really playing fast and loose with the terminology; it's just that "racist Nords" are traditionally racist towards everything that isn't a "True Nord", which would be a Nord born and raised in Skyrim. Makes Dunmer look like a happy and accepting bunch when compared to that (hopefully) minority of close-minded Nords.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Mostly because they're overdone and carry that "too perfect" and condescending trope with them.
Well, unless it's Shadowrun. Then it's elves with tattoos, faux-leather jackets and sniper rifles (and somehow...it works).

 

[Amondren]

People always treat elfs as these sexualized creatures this onetime this guy said that his tavern was as fine as a elven arse!