Why so much hate for Turn Based Games?

[end_boss]

I don't have much time, so maybe I can give my explanation completely through examples.

Turn based combat:

Fallout, Darksun: Shattered Lands, X-COM = awesome

Games where you stand in a line and spend the entire time managing menus = boring

 

[Therumancer]

I tend to prefer turn based games myself. Especially turn based RPGs. There are a number of reasons for this. Among them being able to control multiple characters with precisian. I am also one of those guys who also wistfully hopes for a return of the days when you could create your own party of adventurers, with individual skills. You know where you had like 12 classes and 10 races and could only have 4-6 in a party? (like Wizardry).

I feel real time is fine for certain kinds of games, like fighting games, FPS, etc... but doesn't belong in RPGs (which are becoming a neglected genere). Sadly I think due to development time and the profits to be made with MMORPGs Western-style RPGs are pretty much dying and all we're going to see for a while to come are interactive movie type JRPGs.

I know opinions vary, but then again I guess this is why there were distinctly differant types of games before recently where everything started to kind of lump together more than ever before.

Then again I'll admit I'm disabled in real life, and not as fast as I used to be (32). As much as I still enjoy fighting games, I'm pretty bad at them, and only a little better when it comes to FPS games.

For me, a good turn-based RPG is a godsend.

The big thing though is I'd like to see more games where I can create my entire party from scratch, and have numerous options.

 

[Melaisis]

A lot of people are using the Final Fantasies to highlight the better aspects of this mechanic. I disagree, personally, believing that the whole 'ENGAGE BATTLE, CHANGE SCREEN, FIGHT, WIN, VICTORY DANCE, RETURN TO MAP' routine took too long and got old after the third battle of the first FF I ever played. For a game that puts grinding up on a golden platform, it makes it a chore to do effectively thanks to the useless ceremony every time you engage a random enemy.

EDIT: I also happen to agree that (despite having the Civ. 4 collection on my Steam account) turn-based games are the appendix of the gaming industry; a relic of a time gone by, only used very rarely and usually requiring surgery to take out.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, companies like SSI (Pools of Radiance, etc) had turn based RPG combat with more than 1 dimension. The standard JRPG combat approach of "line-up at ten paces and volley fire" seems like a step backwards from that.

 

[MrJacobs]

The problem I have with most turn based gameplay is that there's often no reason for it. The most common turn based games tend to be fairly simple once you understand the systems that are in place, and often there is a move that each character does that is the "best" thing for them to do.

For instance, in Final Fantasy 6, once Sabin hit level 99, Pummel (his most basic attack) did max damage. There was no reason for him to ever use any other one. Same with most of the characters. You could have them do their "good" move, or have them take time out of their normal rotation to heal. There was no strategy required beyond this. I understand why it was turn based, don't get me wrong. Sorting through a list of a hundred spells would get cumbersome if you also had to keep moving, but really you only used about 7 of those spells by the end of the game anyway.

I get that a game like chess requires more strategy than games like FF, but JRPGs tend to be what I think of when I think of "turn based". It's not a thinking man's battle, it's just slow.

- J

This guy has an excellent point. Another point is that most Jrpgs aren't real turn based combat in the sense that you are completley stationary and are very limited in your attack options outside of a few spells and a basic attack function.

Real turn based games focus on something that completley changes EVERYTHING: terrain. Fallout, Fallout 2, X-Com, Civilization, old school D&D, all of these used terrain to affect your enemey. If your enemy has a gun, use your turn to hide behind a wall, then heal so you are safe from him, then charge up some power move as you force him to engage you.

It feels like you earned a victory rather than successfully figured out a stupid pattern and /or game breaking death spell to use on every enemy. FF Tactics is by far the best Final Fantasy (in terms of combat at least) because of this. Why the hell would your long range support be on the front lines with your melee warriors? Thats just stupid and even more than stupid: retarded design.

Real tun based games force you to plan ahead so you can maximize your surroundings and the full range of your party/squad's abilities in order to achieve victory in as little turns (and hopefully as little movement so you don't have to give ground) as possible.

Now I honestly perfer real time combat or Bioware's patented semi-real time combat systems used in thier infinity engine games and the NWN series. But tactical turn based combat still kicks ass. Unfortunetly, standard party vs. monster menu based combat can go die in the cold depths of space.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

FF X-2 was as good as turn based combat is going to get

I actually agree with that, while I hated the story, the battles were both strategic, involving, variable and incredibly fast paced. I'd love to see that battle system in a better game, FFXII came close, but so many of its attacks where useless and the battle system involved a little too much "autoplay" for me.

I also accept the dislike of "grinding" and "random encounters" as a valid reason for disliking Turn Based Combat and JRPG's and yes, the combat does take much longer, but I find some of the truly great boss battles in Turn Based RPG's are VERY rewarding.

 

[jAxXx0n]

Not all turn based games those specifically centered around being rpg's. A lotof people in this thread are referring to the rpgs that would make up turn based games. There are some fun games like Laser Squad Nemesis and X-com those are le awesome.

There are more to turn based games than rpgs look outside the box they're fun for the person who wants to outwit or outsmart the other.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

True enough, Turn Based Strategy is an under appreciated sub-genre, one that only really sees use in Civ games and a bit in the Total War Games.

 

[KairiYukari]

I dislike Turn Based games for one reason really. I find it illogical and hard to believe that everything, monsters and players alike, would be incredibly chivalrous as to wait diligently to take turns to attack. Its just not very real for me.

 

[SirSchmoopy]

90% of the time when a game tries to be realistic it ends up taking away from the fun. I have nothing against Turn based games but only if they present a new element. I enjoyed Super Mario RPG turn based games and even Paper Mario because they bring simply new elements to an old style of game play but I hate recycled game engines that have me grind monsters very slowly.

I also hate going down three menus, to go into my spell menu, to select my fireball, then select the rank of it, to watch a 15 second casting animation only to find out it did 5% of the monsters health and I need to cast it 19 more times to beat a monsters that I need to kill 10 of before I can get the next level I need to get the next rank of fireball which I can use to kill the boss.

But if you find a game that presents a new element or style of a turn based game then I am all ears because anything that is new may be fun just a little bit.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I dislike Turn Based games for one reason really. I find it illogical and hard to believe that everything, monsters and players alike, would be incredibly chivalrous as to wait diligently to take turns to attack. Its just not very real for me.

Um... excuse me? Realism? I hate to burst the bubble of the deluded world you live in but um... games aren't realistic. I don't want to play "boring normal life" I want to go to far off places with exotic scenery and have characters that can do things I and maybe no other person in real life can possibly do. Turn based combat is a bloody ABSTRACTION instead of being a festival of twitch happy button mashy randomness. Its a deliberate gameplay construct designed to give maximum control over multiple characters instead of relying on poor AI control or (back in the day) only playing one character. It's meant to be the electronic equivalent of Pen/Paper roleplaying, which must used a "turn based system" out of necessity. Don't bring "realism" into a discussion about a medium that is escapism pretty much by nature.

 

[GreatVladmir]

Turn based combat is purley for taste, personally I find it too boring, but I will say that it suits JRPGS to the letter. Because they are completly abstract having people jump 10 feet in the air while holding a sword that would be impossible to hold in real life.

I respect turn based and its heritage, dating back to the first penicil and paper rpgs like D&D, but I feel it is just too slow for me, but then again I like masculine head stomping and FPS games, which is why I like TES IV and III over FF (sorry, I don't know many turnbased rpg games, I tend to avoid them like they have aids.)

 

[slaygore]

When I think of turn based games I think of strategy rpgs like Disgaea and FF Tactics. They're the games that make the turn based genre into an epic chess-like game.

I think turn based games like in ff games are getting a little stale because it's been done so many times already. I just want some change once in a while. I understand why people hate it because it's slow and repetitive, but there are people that like it since it requires more thinking than your typical shooter.

 

[ClassicThunder]

Are we all so ADD these days that we cannot handle a little bit of slower pacing and careful deliberation? Am I the only one who misses carefully considering your actions and then making your move ala Pen/Paper Roleplaying, Chess or other RL games?

I mean I understand the boredom aspect, but certain games (Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door, Shadow Hearts, Grandia, Final Fantasy X, Eternal Sonata, The Total War Series, Civilization Series, Fallout) do Turn Based gameplay in an interesting and compelling manner, and certain other games (The Bioware DND Games, KOTOR) allow an excellent comprimise.

Can a non-ADD-actionjunky-FPSfanboy explain this EXTREME aversion to me?

I've been classified as having ADHD and am a FPS guy so I'll take the liberty to explain my opinion. Also in case anyone wants to say I'm stupid I'm 17 and in college.

I personally find any turn based game that takes more than 20 seconds between turns is boring. Games such as chess and checkers are acceptable as you have to think between turns. On my computer Civilization BTS is fun, on my dad's computer a 400 turn game is going to cost me 400 mins of waisted time. Turn based games are fine as I have something to do between turns, not hitting the same attack and watching something wiggle for 5 mins strait.

To make it short I believe most turn based games are a waist of time unless they're mind games such as chess or checkers.

 

[Annonchinil]

The thing is that with a real time action game it can suck much more than a turn based game and yet you will still get an action component to keep a player entertained while poor mechanics can completely ruin a turn-based game. So even though the combat in Oblivion was horrible people still found it engaging. Also turn based mechanics (ignoring Japan) have traditionally existed in complex games, like say wargames (TOAW)and rpg's (Wizardry 8) where you had to think/plan and the excitement came from seeing if your strategy succeeded.

The decline of turn based is synonymous with the mainstream decline of flight sims, space sims, wargames, adventure games, mech sims, real racing sims etc. Anything where you have to consult a manual is no longer worth playing, not because the games are too complex, but they were just not very accessible.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

The thing is that with a real time action game it can suck much more than a turn based game and yet you will still get an action component to keep a player entertained while poor mechanics can completely ruin a turn-based game. So even though the combat in Oblivion was horrible people still found it engaging. Also turn based mechanics (ignoring Japan) have traditionally existed in complex games, like say wargames (TOAW)and rpg's (Wizardry 8) where you had to think/plan and the excitement came from seeing if your strategy succeeded.

The decline of turn based is synonymous with the mainstream decline of flight sims, space sims, wargames, adventure games, mech sims, real racing sims etc. Anything where you have to consult a manual is no longer worth playing, not because the games are too complex, but they were just not very accessible.

I can see that, and I agree that Turn Based Games can really fail at being engaging when their mechanics are bad.

I'm full of rage on the subject because so many of the people who don't like Turn Based Games rarely play the good ones, they'll play one they didn't like and use it to condemn an entire system of play. Also I find a crummy Real Time RPG can kill the game as much as a crummy Turn Based Battle System can.

 

[Pebble_Raven]

There's nothing wrong with a GOOD turn based game. Strategy and diversity can add a lot of fun to it, and it's actually quite entertaining coping with all the statistics and item managment to keep everyone alive.

The problem is that most turn based games are not good. They are pathetic, weak, clones of Final Fantasy using a formula which dried up ages ago. People making these games have been scraping off the bottom of a barrel for the last 20 years, toying around with idiotic and "Heard it all before" stories usually to do with some sort of magic artifacts and Gods, who are NEVER immortal in an RPG for some reason. These people have been making and remaking the same game time and time again. But hey, why fix it if broke s#!t still sells like hotcakes?

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

There's nothing wrong with a GOOD turn based game. Strategy and diversity can add a lot of fun to it, and it's actually quite entertaining coping with all the statistics and item managment to keep everyone alive.

The problem is that most turn based games are not good. They are pathetic, weak, clones of Final Fantasy using a formula which dried up ages ago. People making these games have been scraping off the bottom of a barrel for the last 20 years, toying around with idiotic and "Heard it all before" stories usually to do with some sort of magic artifacts and Gods, who are NEVER immortal in an RPG for some reason. These people have been making and remaking the same game time and time again. But hey, why fix it if broke s#!t still sells like hotcakes?

This seems more like a rant against the RPG genre in general, rather than an arguement against Turn Based Play Mechanics...

 

[VonBlade]

Turn based gaming is godly.

Unfortunately the "ooh a shiny thing" generation can't seem to grasp this concept and so demand incredibly short action games. The companies are pleased because they can just make 10 set pieces then string them together, the game is done in a day and you have to buy something else.

Then, because obviously nobody apart from us old guys who remember when two floppy disks meant a BIG game, everyone complains that turn-based gaming is old fashioned and we're going with the new zeitgeist of real-time gaming.

Forgetting of course that everymotherfunster does RT gaming now. So turn-based would actually be a novel departure.

I'm looking at you Bethesda.

Even worse is that we all then adapt to this "ooh another shiny thing" demographic. Look at me. I've spread this tiny post out into loads of easy to read paragraphs so my valid point isn't ignored by the tards who think more than three lines is somehow a wall-of-text.

You know who you are and you sicken me.
VB