Why the Marvel Movies Should Ditch Peter Parker

[Yakostovian]

[I don't know how to even start forming my dissenting opinion. Nearly everything you said looks like knee-jerk reaction by an over-protective fanboy that has a very narrow definition of what makes Spider-Man work.

The reason why it's difficult to put in a serious dissenting position is because I'm not wrong, as much as a lot of people want to present it as a knee-jerk reaction. Especially when you get down to the central question of why those who "like" this idea actually want to "blackwash" existing characters as opposed to giving established black characters their due. It's about a statement, not this having been some great idea.

Stating you are not wrong means nothing if you can't back it up with some kind of evidence. So far, you have provided nothing more than opinion, and no convincing arguments.

*SNIP*

Thank you for being able to convey what I was trying to. However, Therumancer is somewhat correct in that the Ultimate Universe is not well regarded excepting the flagship title; Ultimate Spider-Man. Which when Therumancer's entire argument boils down to "Ultimate Spider-Man sucks because he isn't Peter Parker," I can give him little leeway.

 

[JimB]

This is Walter Ulbricht, blatantly lying to journalists about "nobody having the intent to erect a wall" in 1961, shortly before the erection of the Berlin Wall.

I am not Walter Ulbricht.

*SNIP*

Thank you for being able to convey what I was trying to.

You're welcome, though I doubt the message got through, since I'm about ninety percent sure I remember Therumancer putting me on ignore ages ago because I didn't agree with him about his thoughts on race and/or gender.

 

[Lightknight]

This would be equivalent of saying that DC should drop Clark Kent in favor of John Henry Irons.

Not especially equivalent, of course, since no one ever called John Henry Irons Superman, whereas Miles Morales has been Spider-Man for four years.

Because "The Man of Steel" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_%28John_Henry_Irons%29#The_Death_of_Superman:_The_Man_of_Steel]. (while he wasn't one that claimed to actually be superman himself, Lois considered that he was inhabited by the soul of superman so I consider him along the same lines as the others)

Anyways, my point was to compare yet another event in comic book history where a superhero died and a bunch of people showed up (some more directly claiming to be Superman than others) until the hero returned. The similarities are striking and at the time anyone could have made the same argument for the other incarnations to get screentime in the same way being done here.

That did not make them magically become also superman. Just like the Thorina shenanigans where she will never be Thor Odinson even if she wears the moniker of Thor.

Sorry, but Morales is not Spider-man. Morales is a character wearing the Spider-man mantel but is not himself Spider-man. There is a difference. Morales is to Spider-man as any of the four superman incarnations were to Superman in the Reign of Supermen. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Superman#Reign_of_the_Supermen.21] Morales is as much Spider-man as Spider-Woman is aside from the genitals. Those do give him an edge there.

 

[JimB]

While [John Henry Irons] wasn't one who claimed to actually be Superman himself, Lois considered that he was inhabited by the soul of Superman, so I consider him along the same lines as the others.

A grieving widow seeking the return of her husband considered a possibility she was required to consider in order for a dumb, contrived plot to work. You will forgive me if I do not base my understanding of a story based on what the imaginary people in it think.

Anyways, my point was to compare yet another event in comic book history where a superhero died and a bunch of people showed up (some more directly claiming to be Superman than others) until the hero returned.

I know. My point is I think your example is inaccurate enough to be useless in this case.

Sorry, but Morales is not Spider-Man.

To judge by the title of the comic he appears in, the people who own the rights to Spider-Man disagree with you. I accept their authority above your own.

 

[Lightknight]

While [John Henry Irons] wasn't one who claimed to actually be Superman himself, Lois considered that he was inhabited by the soul of Superman, so I consider him along the same lines as the others.

A grieving widow seeking the return of her husband considered a possibility she was required to consider in order for a dumb, contrived plot to work. You will forgive me if I do not base my understanding of a story based on what the imaginary people in it think.

You don't base your understanding of an imaginary story based off of what the imaginary people in it think? That's kinda funny. What you are still forgetting is that we only know how things ended because we're on this side of time. During that comic run people very well thought he could be it. So I repeat, the same argument could have been made.

Anyways, my point was to compare yet another event in comic book history where a superhero died and a bunch of people showed up (some more directly claiming to be Superman than others) until the hero returned.

I know. My point is I think your example is inaccurate enough to be useless in this case.

It's your prerogative to think that. Forgive me if I do not base my understanding of reality based on what other people think of it. [/joke]

Sorry, but Morales is not Spider-Man.

To judge by the title of the comic he appears in, the people who own the rights to Spider-Man disagree with you. I accept their authority above your own.[/quote]This exact thing has played out time and time again. Morales, if he should continue to exist in the Marvel universe, will either eventually have his own super hero name or will forever be described as the black hispanic Spider-man. If ever the name Spider-man is uttered, Peter Parker will remain the name they associate.

 

[JimB]

You don't base your understanding of an imaginary story based off of what the imaginary people in it think? That's kinda funny.

If I do that, then Tyler Durden is a hero instead of a hypocritical ass, so no, I do not.

What you are still forgetting is that we only know how things ended because we're on this side of time.

Uh...no, I didn't. I kind of thought it was taken as given that the present is the stuff that happened after the past happened.

Morales, if he should continue to exist in the Marvel universe, will either eventually have his own superhero name or will forever be described as the black-Hispanic Spider-Man.

How people deliberately setting out to detract from a character choose to describe that character is not somehow automatically correct, nor even especially relevant. See also that depressing Thor/Whor discussion earlier in the thread.

If ever the name Spider-Man is uttered, Peter Parker will remain the name they associate.

Not by everyone, but I keep forgetting the people who disagree don't count.

 

[Therumancer]

[I don't know how to even start forming my dissenting opinion. Nearly everything you said looks like knee-jerk reaction by an over-protective fanboy that has a very narrow definition of what makes Spider-Man work.

The reason why it's difficult to put in a serious dissenting position is because I'm not wrong, as much as a lot of people want to present it as a knee-jerk reaction. Especially when you get down to the central question of why those who "like" this idea actually want to "blackwash" existing characters as opposed to giving established black characters their due. It's about a statement, not this having been some great idea.

Stating you are not wrong means nothing if you can't back it up with some kind of evidence. So far, you have provided nothing more than opinion, and no convincing arguments.

*SNIP*

Thank you for being able to convey what I was trying to. However, Therumancer is somewhat correct in that the Ultimate Universe is not well regarded excepting the flagship title; Ultimate Spider-Man. Which when Therumancer's entire argument boils down to "Ultimate Spider-Man sucks because he isn't Peter Parker," I can give him little leeway.

One response here should suffice to what I've received so far on the subject since I'll just keep saying the same thing otherwise.

At the end of the day the bottom line is this, the comics and fandom community dislikes Milo, or Miles, or whatever you want to call him. Exceptions are of course going to exist, but that's the general fact of the matter. The responses I receive here try and "rebut" things by claiming I am stating an opinion, on the other hand nobody here is even trying to claim to be in a position to know anything. Not one reference to any kind of community involvement, having been in a position to mass chat fans, or provided any kind of verifiable circumstances. I have done all of these things. For all intents and purposes I am the "expert" or "source" you would refer to here unless you could come up with a better one that contradicts what I am saying. At the end of the day I am pointing out the community *generally* dislike Milo, others are saying "well I like him, so obviously you must be wrong".

Case in point I have mentioned how Marvel 2015 (which sucked when it started but has improved) has a huge Marvel community as it's basically a Diablo-style loot treadmill with Marvel characters and a chat attached which means it's a place where serious fans hang out and talk about comics and such. The company that runs this game called Gazillion is one of those "anything for money" companies that goes out of it's way to get the rights to any character or skin they can so they can sell it for real money. In the scope of the game they have something called "enhanced skins" which represent characters with identical power sets to others but who are technically distinct individuals. For example Spider Man in one of his many alternate costumes is just a skin, running him as Superior Spider Man (as Doctor Octopus) doesn't change the base abilities but DOES include different voice work and animations. Similar things include say running Nova as Richard Rider as opposed to Nova as Sam Alexander. People will pay for these which is why they keep coming out and we've seen both popular and obscure skins showing up, things like say Lady Deadpool or Lady Loki which are about as fringe as you can get. Spider-Gwen has a pre-order. Why is there no "Milo" or if you prefer "Miles" that's because Gazillion doesn't think it can sell the character, nobody wants it, and if you listen to the chat you know why, the dude is a bloody punchline. The only character that seems to be equally reviled is Sam Alexander (who also moved a decent number of books) who got into the game namely because they bought the rights for Nova as Sam, and he was even intended to be a launch character, but when they found out how much people loathed him they realized Nova wouldn't sell so they waited a long time, did Richard Rider as the default, and turned Sam who they already did work for into an enhanced costume. I've gone on some long Marvel 2015 binges (I get burned out) and have yet to see a single Sam Alexander.

Now this IS circumstantial evidence, but this isnt' a criminal trial with huge stakes, and it's more than what's being presented. It also reinforces what the community saying about "Milo" having the most popular comic that nobody ever reads. His financial success being tied mostly to being an alternate spider-man who might at one point be collectible than any love of the character by the majority of fans. It's a case where the sales don't translate into popularity and thus not into any kind of bankable merchandising. If a company like Gazillion won't do a skin, and a community like "2015" won't buy it where they will buy all these other skins and characters that right there provides some pretty compelling evidence... or at least more than anyone else is presenting. What's more I'll notice that while anyone can CLAIM to be reporting community chatter, nobody seems to want to directly challenge that choosing to attack me (even you reinforced my point about The Ultimate Universe in general) or claim they have gotten the opposite reaction, because at the end of the day anyone who is qualified to be discussing this is going to know I'm right. Sure someone trying to win the argument might be able to find a sequence where people said nice things about "Milo", but being able to prove any kind of community trend? I'm quite willing to say it won't happen.

To continue this point I will also point out that whenever "Milo" comes up it's all about race, because that's what he's got. The whole article we're talking about is how "nice" it would be to see Spider-Man swinging along, pull off his hood, and show that he's not white. Sure he's got some back story, but nothing that many people are going to say "you know this is really awesome" about. In comparison for example looking again at 2015, it's not like only white characters sell since skins like "Alenjara" Blaze (female Hispanic Ghost Rider legacy) do exist, alongside characters like Shuri, not to mention Luke Cage and Storm both being on the roster, and Falcon available as a sidekick. Race seems to be the reason to promote "Milo" almost exclusively and it's tied to politics, it's not a case where people hate on him for being racist or "2015" being some kind of secret hub for Stormfront activity.

... and yes, I maintain that it is insulting to the IPs to overlook existing black/minority IPs to blackwash people. Not because the characters themselves are insulted (seriously someone just tried to spin things that way) but the IP, development, and work that went into them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some people do indeed like "Milo" but not enough to justify the kinds of changes being talked about, which is a political stunt, and would be taken that way. Sort of line how they tried to create a black Nick Fury via "Battle Scars" in the mainstream universe and that hasn't gone over especially well despite the story not being bad in of itself. A political gesture will always be trumped by sincerity, no matter how much supporters of the political gesture try and claim that it's a sincere motion.

I can be argued with of course, and even yelled down on these forums like happens a lot since I usually "fight" alone given the trends here. But that won't make me wrong.... and honestly if you've never heard Miles Morales called "Milo" (as I said I'm not sure how it started) then odds are your not going to sell yourself as being in tune with what the community is saying.

Also, I myself have predicted that there will be numerous successful minority characters and plenty with that potential. Miles is not likely to be one of them, especially in the long term.

 

[JimB]

At the end of the day the bottom line is this, the comics and fandom community dislikes Milo, or Miles, or whatever you want to call him.

I am going with the character's actual name, please and thank you.

Not one reference to any kind of community involvement, having been in a position to mass chat fans, or provided any kind of verifiable circumstances. I have done all of these things.

The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes," not "data." I never doubted that you have talked to someone who supports the position you already want to take. I am just not impressed, any more than I expect you to be impressed by the people I've talked to who like Miles Morales.

Case in point I have mentioned how Marvel 2015 [has] a chat attached which means it's a place where serious fans hang out and talk about comics and such.

Oh, serious fans, okay then. And the people who aren't playing this, in your own words, loot treadmill of a game aren't serious fans, so their input is ignored.

Why is there no "Milo" or, if you prefer, "Miles?"

If you're wondering why I do not accept you as the authority you want to present yourself as, it is because of this childishness. I do not trust you to be fair to anything that doesn't support your own conclusions.

Now this is circumstantial evidence, but this isn't a criminal trial with huge stakes, and it's more than what's being presented.

You are the one making a positive assertion. The burden of proof is on you. The things you say do not jive with my personal experience, and the way you say them makes me suspicious of you, so I don't believe you.

If a company like Gazillion won't do a skin, and a community like "2015" won't buy it where they will buy all these other skins and characters that right there provides some pretty compelling evidence... or at least more than anyone else is presenting.

One specific subset of a fandom, located at the center of a Venn diagram of Marvel fandoms and people who enjoy what you describe as a "loot treadmill," doesn't like a character; therefore, the general public does not like the character.

Nope, sorry, you're going to have to put in more legwork if you want to convince me that extrapolation is anything other than confirmation bias.

To continue this point I will also point out that whenever "Milo" comes up it's all about race, because that's what he's got.

That you believe this says considerably more about your perceptions and attitudes than it does about the character.

I maintain that it is insulting to the IPs to overlook existing black/minority IPs to blackwash people. Not because the characters themselves are insulted (seriously someone just tried to spin things that way) but the IP, development, and work that went into them.

Oh, you're not worried about hurting the feelings of the character but of the even less anthropomorphic and more ethereal concept of "development" and "work?" I don't care. You're still appealing to guilt about the bruised feelings of things that do not have feelings, and I am nothing but contemptuous of that position, particularly when you have the dishonesty to try to insist "intellectual property" is a factor here. Yes, it is property, and do you know whose property it is? It is the property of the people who choose to create the new character. The people who own the thing and have an absolute, unfettered right to do what they want with the thing are by definition incapable of disrespecting the thing they own, and the idea that how those things feel matters more than how living, breathing fans feel is beyond absurd.

 

[Lightknight]

If ever the name Spider-Man is uttered, Peter Parker will remain the name they associate.

Not by everyone, but I keep forgetting the people who disagree don't count.

Alright, let's play the honest answer game:

Someone starts to talk to you about Spider-Man. They say, "I just love Spider-Man!". Whom do you believe they're speaking of? Do you think of Peter Parker, do you think of Morales, or do you think of some nebulous term of Spider-Man in a way similar to how the Flash lineage has operated?

I think it will ultimately depend on how long Peter Parker is out of the game for. Hell, he's already back in the same ultimate universe and just arbitrarily saying that he's not ready to be Spider-Man again. It's one thing to see someone hang up their costume and retire with someone else taking up their place in a mostly permanent way like we see with the flash, but quite another to see someone mucking about in the big boy pants while daddy's away (Miles is 13, . The only way for Morales to survive is for Peter to stay dead (which already isn't the case) or for him to eventually take up his own mantel.

Seriously, they are both alive and kicking in the same universe. Miles will always be one of those various heroes that temporarily took up the role. It would be different if Peter were old like Bruce is in the Batman version of this where he's training a kid to take over. But he's just fully healthy and biding his time.

In any event, the ultimate Spider-Man is not the mainstream Spider-Man. Alternate universe altogether. You can at the very best say that Miles Morales is currently the Spider-Man of Earth-1610. Sorry, but that's it. Hell, at least female Thor has the actual powers of Thor in her universe including his hammer while Thor doesn't have it. In Ultimate Spider-Man, Peter Parker is just taking some kind of unexplained sabbatical and is now known to be immortal.

So even in the one universe he's in there is the ever looming threat that Spider-Man will either return or have to keep bailing him out of tough situations just like he's already had to do. Morales is Spider-Boy of Eath-1610 while Spider-Man is on vacation.

 

[JimB]

Alright, let's play the honest answer game:

Someone starts to talk to you about Spider-Man. They say, "I just love Spider-Man!" Whom do you believe they're speaking of?

Absent any context, of course I'll assume Peter Parker. I'll wonder what the hell they love so much about him after the endless series of bad and/or boring stories (Sony's reboot franchise, Spider-Verse), but if they leave it at that, then I will assume they're talking about Pee-Par. I'm not arguing about general trends, though. I'm saying that for me, Miles Morales is a more enjoyable character, so he's the one I associate with the name and the arachnid-themed pajamas; and I am not so arrogant as to assume I'm unique in this.

Hell, he's already back in the same Ultimate universe and just arbitrarily saying that he's not ready to be Spider-Man again.

Yeah, that whole storyline is weird to me. I feel like it's setup for a reveal (that will probably never happen now that Marvel is pulling its own Crisis on Infinite Earths bullshit), because if the Oz serum that keeps resurrecting Norman also resurrects Peter, where's Harry? Harry had Oz in him, too. Couple that with the completely uncharacteristic way Peter claimed to be trying to protect his family by staying away from them, yet still putting on the old costume which he must have fucking known would draw them back to him once the news stories started, and I do not believe that is the real Peter Parker. I'm going with clone on that one.

Miles is thirteen.

Fourteen. There was a time skip after his mom died. Still, I don't see why a movie adaptation should be married to the kid's age of all details.

In any event, the ultimate Spider-Man is not the mainstream Spider-Man.

I think you're making the mistake of trying to calcify a current description as unalterable canon. Your argument seems to be, "People do not think Miles Morales is really Spider-Man, so we must fight to maintain this status quo," without any particular explanation as to why that status quo deserves protection.

 

[Lightknight]

Alright, let's play the honest answer game:

Someone starts to talk to you about Spider-Man. They say, "I just love Spider-Man!" Whom do you believe they're speaking of?

Absent any context, of course I'll assume Peter Parker. I'll wonder what the hell they love so much about him after the endless series of bad and/or boring stories (Sony's reboot franchise, Spider-Verse), but if they leave it at that, then I will assume they're talking about Pee-Par. I'm not arguing about general trends, though. I'm saying that for me, Miles Morales is a more enjoyable character, so he's the one I associate with the name and the arachnid-themed pajamas; and I am not so arrogant as to assume I'm unique in this.

You and I may agree on the movies, but all of the Spider-man films made around $800 million. The Reboots both made $700-$750 million each. Clearly we're swimming against the current on that point.

The animated shows have been wonderful and his comics have been worth reading. So it's not hard to see why someone would be a fan.

But this is my point. Morales is not Spider-Man. Peter is. People don't think of Spider-Man and associate Morales as anything more than an outlier. Not that Morales is bad or boring, it's good to have something interesting, but Spider-Man? Not really.

Yeah, that whole storyline is weird to me. I feel like it's setup for a reveal (that will probably never happen now that Marvel is pulling its own Crisis on Infinite Earths bullshit), because if the Oz serum that keeps resurrecting Norman also resurrects Peter, where's Harry? Harry had Oz in him, too. Couple that with the completely uncharacteristic way Peter claimed to be trying to protect his family by staying away from them, yet still putting on the old costume which he must have fucking known would draw them back to him once the news stories started, and I do not believe that is the real Peter Parker. I'm going with clone on that one.

Would kinda smack of the death of superman if so. All we need is two more and we're good to go.

Fourteen. There was a time skip after his mom died. Still, I don't see why a movie adaptation should be married to the kid's age of all details.

If they do portray him, I hope they don't try a child angle. I hate everything about those "kids are fully competent beings" films.

I think you're making the mistake of trying to calcify a current description as unalterable canon. Your argument seems to be, "People do not think Miles Morales is really Spider-Man, so we must fight to maintain this status quo," without any particular explanation as to why that status quo deserves protection.

Not really, my argument is that People think of Peter as Spider-Man and Peter IS Spider-Man in the main comics and even in this Ultimate storyline. So Peter is Spider-Man and Morales is something else. Morales is potentially A Spider-Man but not THE like Peter is.

Now, do I think Morales could be more interesting than Spider-Man? Sure. But I don't think he should replace Spider-man. I think Morales should have a different moniker and own it.

 

[Therumancer]

At the end of the day the bottom line is this, the comics and fandom community dislikes Milo, or Miles, or whatever you want to call him.

I am going with the character's actual name, please and thank you.

Not one reference to any kind of community involvement, having been in a position to mass chat fans, or provided any kind of verifiable circumstances. I have done all of these things.

The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes," not "data." I never doubted that you have talked to someone who supports the position you already want to take. I am just not impressed, any more than I expect you to be impressed by the people I've talked to who like Miles Morales.

Case in point I have mentioned how Marvel 2015 [has] a chat attached which means it's a place where serious fans hang out and talk about comics and such.

Oh, serious fans, okay then. And the people who aren't playing this, in your own words, loot treadmill of a game aren't serious fans, so their input is ignored.

Why is there no "Milo" or, if you prefer, "Miles?"

If you're wondering why I do not accept you as the authority you want to present yourself as, it is because of this childishness. I do not trust you to be fair to anything that doesn't support your own conclusions.
.

Let me put it this way. What have you presented in any way, shape, or form, to even remotely reinforce what your saying? I've noticed you haven't so much as provided a single example of a large comics community where I am likely to see an overwhelming support of the character. Nor have you provided a single example of the character's alleged popularity translating into any kind of merchandising success. My references to 2015 were largely because it's easily verifiable (FTP game, anyone can login to chat, huge community, the available skins and such are right there along with people's discussions about them and the obvious marketing patterns if you follow the game and company over a period of time). The thing is you might have talked to people who like Miles, but it's unlikely you'll be able to consistently find large groups of people who appreciate the character. There is more to it than people simply agreeing with me. There are plenty of characters (and things in general) I dislike, and as I've shown in the past I'm more than willing to stand on my own with such statements and simply give opinions. This is not one of those times, I'm simply providing experience and perspective to inform of the realities in this case.

To be honest there ARE people who echo the sentiments of this article, however like this article it mostly comes down to arguments about diversification, when your big reason for wanting Miles is so he can take off the hood and show he's not white, that isn't exactly a strong sales pitch for the character, it's more of suggesting a political statement. When it comes to simple diversity there are already plenty of IPs featuring minorities, work that stands on it's own as opposed to simply being an ethnicity change on an established character... and yes, I DO consider it insulting to people who put in the time creating and developing those IPs for them to be passed over in an effort to diversify in order to make a political statement. Someone like Cloak for example has a distinctive power set, as opposed to simply being another alternate Spider-Man with a different skin color.

 

[Lightknight]

Yes, the main point of Miles is diversification. Unfortunately, Marvel is seeking to do this by raiding their existing A-list cast instead of producing and publicizing new worthy entries into the mix. This is why we get characters like Thorina (female Thor) and not someone badass like Sif being added to the main roster. Because Marvel comics is currently doing something dumb but for a smart and good reason.

 

[JimB]

Let me put it this way. What have you presented in any way, shape, or form, to even remotely reinforce what your saying?

I do not need to reinforce that I believe what I believe.

I've noticed you haven't so much as provided a single example of a large comics community where I am likely to see an overwhelming support of the character.

And I would be ashamed of my failure to provide evidence of that large comics community if I ever claimed it existed. Go ahead, find a post of mine where I said it's out there. I'll wait.

Nor have you provided a single example of the character's alleged popularity translating into any kind of merchandising success.

Didn't say that one either.

Incidentally, please don't think I haven't noticed you have refused to provide the data you insist exists in favor of trying to trick me into proving positions I never took.

I do consider it insulting to people who put in the time creating and developing those IPs for them to be passed over in an effort to diversify in order to make a political statement.

What are the names of these creators who are being insulted? Do they share your opinion?

 

[its big chope]

because of the international market the studio will make more money if they make him a white guy. I don't think it's important tbh so if the movie will be more successful with a white guy then so be it. maybe you guys who think he should be black should go to the countries who don't want a black spiderman and change their minds lol