Why the Skyrim boycott is a waste of time and missing enjoyment.

[Treblaine]

>Notch tells truth
> "makes Bethesda look bad"
> Repeatedly says he holds no grudge
> Repeatedly tries to defuse any tension

"HURRF A DURF! He Must be lying! That's the only possible explanation, not that Zenimax's lawyers may actually be in the wrong"

These are all opinions, not facts. I don't understand why you repeatedly attack people for their opinions, while presenting nothing but your own opinions as support for your position. Unless your goal is to be pointlessly argumentative, and not to further the discussion in any tangibly constructive way.

Opinions? Do you even know what that word MEANS?!?!? Do you think "opinion" just means a "point that can be undermined when they aren't my own".

What Notch has said are FACTS!! He is a reputable source in the video games industry, it is slanderous libel to accuse him of lying when you have no evidence to think he is. All we have to go on is what people have to say about the situation!

It is not an "opinion" that (1)Notch offered to drop the trademark and (2) Zenimax refused this offer. THAT IS A FACT!! Sure, it might be a deception, and maybe the CIA faked the death of Elvis Presley, both of those cases it would be contrived and ridiculous to accuse deceit.

I am not attacking you for your opinions, I am attack you for your IDEAS! Know the difference between "opinion" and "idea"

You can have the OPINION that you don't like the food in a restaurant. But to spread the IDEA that the chef is pissing in the food to make it taste bad THAT is why I am pissed off with you.

I think your idea is utter crap, and that it should be shown for the crap that it is before it spreads, ideas are powerful things when packaged in the right way. Your idea that Notch is lying, deceiving and misleading by withholding supposed "mythical exonerating points" about Zenimax is an insulting idea as it is tempting for the intellectually weak, and those who are of the opinion of not liking notch/mojang/minecraft and slavish unconditional love for Elder-Scrolls/Bethesda/Zenimax.

Your idea also utterly contradicts the way Notch has tried to steer this, over and over again he has offered compromise and reconciliation, and you now YOU are spreading the idea that he is some master instigator trying to manipulate us into a hate-campaign against Zenimax.

Bollocks.

Utter bollocks.

I am not being "pointlessly argumentative" you would see the point of my argument if you actually thought about what I am saying rather than immediately think of how to undermine it. My point is you are resorting to underhanded slander of accusing Notch of deception and manipulation when he has been extraordinarily open, diplomatic and compromising.

 

[Bonecrusher]

and more butt hurt and flames were sputtered by Notch fanboys. Apparently Notch said that he was willing to change "Scrolls" to 'Scrolls: [some subtitle]' and now he's confused as to why he's getting sued still.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GET RID OF THE SCROLLS PART.

That's what Zenimax is peeved about, the Scrolls part, so adding a subtitle doesn't solve their problem.

My overall point? Boycotting an awesome looking game because your overlord says hes completely innocent is just being stupid, please for the love of god use your brain.

I am not a Notch fanboy, but the real issue is here oppression of a large company to a small company.
and because of a stupid "law" in USA.

If you can not see it, and still argue about it, then you are a Badesta fanboy and no better than Notch fanboys which you complain about.

equating a simple word (e.g. Scrolls) with tailoring whole title (e.g. Dat Older Stories: Skyrings) is a stupid law and should be changed.

Think about it, if I make a game titled "Need Money", will EA sue me to steal the title of Need For Speed series, and will you still protect them?
Or if I make a game titled "Call The Cops", will Activision sue me to steam the title of Call Of Duty series, and will you still protect them?
It is a different game, different title and doesn't even resemble the other title.

By the way, Skyrim isn't even "awesome looking game", it has many flaws and problems.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think your idea is utter crap, and that it should be shown for the crap that it is before it spreads, ideas are powerful things when packaged in the right way. Your idea that Notch is lying, deceiving and misleading by withholding supposed "mythical exonerating points" about Zenimax is an insulting idea as it is tempting for the intellectually weak, and those who are of the opinion of not liking notch/mojang/minecraft and slavish unconditional love for Elder-Scrolls/Bethesda/Zenimax.

That's my idea now, is it? Can you quote me saying any of those things?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

*SNIP*

I've seen people buy this:

When they wanted to buy this:

Take a look at that though, the title font is more or less the same, the style is more or less the same, and the prominent text is very similar. Thus it is relatively easy to mix it up. With scrolls, the font art is entirely different, and the Scrolls bit on the elder scrolls isn't even the prominent text, Skyrim takes that position, and if you can honestly say that you can confuse the word Scrolls, with the word Skyrim, long enough for you to actually walk up to a counter and buy the game, you need your eyes examined. Not to mention, this is all moot because Scrolls is an ONLINE ONLY TITLE. No boxes to be mixed up in the electronic shop, and they aren't even likely to be offered in the same online store, thus, mixing up the two is nigh impossible.

The point of my comment wasn't to disprove his argument with a counter argument... I was picking at his pre-disposed response.

"Do. Not. Lie. I can tell if you are lying when you say ridiculous and illogical things."

Which I read as:
"You're objectively wrong based on my own subjective reasoning."

 

[Treblaine]

You sound like a conspiracy theorist:

"maybe there is all the time loads of conflict over trademarks behind the scenes with money changing hands all the time it's just it's all super top secret ... somehow ... and we don't know. See now you have to prove something that didn't happen. I know full well proving something that didn't happen when it could have happened any time and any where is impossible... that is how conspiracy theorist protect their delusions"

But I never said any of those things. This is what's known as a straw man.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Techland has OBVIOUSLY reserved the trademark, that is clear enough. The game is on sale under that name and it is trademarked. They get to have it, why can't Mojang with "Scrolls"? Don't dance around this saying "well maybe something happened in secret" YOU HAVE NO REASON TO THINK THAT! And most of all THERE HAS BEEN NO CONFUSION! No one has bought Dead Island thinking it had ANYTHING to do with Dead Rising, or that they were made by the same people, or it was a spin off.

I never said anything about anything happening in secret. I asked if you knew anything about the process they went through to secure that trademark. About what considerations they needed to make, about any titles they considered and were unable to reserve, or anything beyond the parade of knee jerk assumptions powering this position you've taken.

It's a pretty reasonable assumption that a judge (who is usually has to have been a lawyer for many years so almost invariably is old) is not going to be familiar with video games. This case will get dragged through the courts at huge expense to prove the obvious to the court system and Mojang may very well fail as they cannot afford competent enough lawyers to not fall into a logical trap and get screwed on a technicality. I've seen this shit happen before, I suppose you will now demand specifics, no doubt so you can go off on a tangent to somehow concoct some bullcrap about how specific examples of flagrant injustices were actually fair. No, do you think I am going to fall for that?

What exactly are you meant to be falling for, here, again? The trap of educating yourself on an issue before sounding off about it? Why is "knowing what you're talking about" some trap you refuse to fall into?

I'm pleased to see that you're beginning to realize that you're operating on a chain of assumptions, though. Naturally you think they're reasonable, as they're your assumptions.

This is not a hasty generalisation (and even that is not a "logical fallacy")

Actually it was the very definition of a hasty generalization.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

You are squirming SO MUCH to fight this argument in a position where you can roll out a trap like catching me out as lying by trying to be specific on a point you can "disprove", do you take me for a compete muppet? I know the game you are playing, you are trying desperately to lure me away from the damning position that:

Now you're attacking me instead of actually responding to anything I'm saying. This is known as an ad hominem attack, and also "poisoning the well".

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

I'll try asking you again. Why not educate yourself before sounding off on an issue? Do you think it's reasonable to have fully formed and aggressive opinions on a subject you've already admitted you don't know the first thing about?

You are still using the logic of a conspiracy theorist logic: "prove to me something didn't happen"

I'm sorry that I am not prepared to troll through the internet and public records for ANY evidence of dispute over Dead Rising and Dead island, if you think that happens then the onus is on YOU to find it and prove it happened.

I AM educated on this subject, I know about trademark law. Not enough to be a lawyer but what more do you expect? Do you REALLY think I have to be a god damn lawyer to stand up against blatant injustices? I certainly know enough about the industry that I am studying in. You are trying to trap me into specifics you can trap me on with pedantic disputes on.

That is the fallacy you are resorting to, that I need to be educated to such a degree before I can point out something which is obviously wrong with this legal process. And then the fallacy that I somehow need to go into specific when that is utterly irrelevant to how this is a frivolous case.

ANYTHING from distracting from the central and OBVIOUS wrong here, that "Scrolls" is clearly distinct from "[small]The Elder Scrolls v:[/small] SKYRIM!"

And what is this "chain of assumptions" line? Do you think you can get away with dropping in an insinuation like that from NOWHERE!

There is no chain of anything, there are no assumptions. There is the central issue that Zenimax is being extraordinary petty and manipulative.

Also, saying I am worried about falling into an Ad Hominem attack cannot possibly be an ad hominem attack.

Again, that "Hasty generalisation" thing does not apply. It is PERFECTLY REASONABLE to assume an old judge doesn't understand video games and that those with the most expensive lawyers will fare better in court.

 

[Treblaine]

I think your idea is utter crap, and that it should be shown for the crap that it is before it spreads, ideas are powerful things when packaged in the right way. Your idea that Notch is lying, deceiving and misleading by withholding supposed "mythical exonerating points" about Zenimax is an insulting idea as it is tempting for the intellectually weak, and those who are of the opinion of not liking notch/mojang/minecraft and slavish unconditional love for Elder-Scrolls/Bethesda/Zenimax.

That's my idea now, is it? Can you quote me saying any of those things?

By that part I was referring back to rdm.

You know I am having to respond to a lot of insane post on this thread, I can't keep track when some guy interjects in I think I'm speaking the the same person.

Yeah, his idea that Notch is a deceiving everyone is what I am countering.

 

[6unn3r]

I can safely say that as a member of the "general" public, i like 99% of this "general" public have no problem what-so-ever, in figuring out the differance between somthing called Scrolls, and somthing else called Elder Scrolls.

I mean come on guys put your toys back in the pram and grow up. Minecraft (or its spin off/sucsessor/watever), was sucsessful in the indie market is never going to be as big as Skyrim is. They just arnt the same. This is just Notch's way of drumming up publicity by dragging this through the Swedish legal system which im sure has better things to be doing with its time.

Do Swedish taxpayers have to foot any kind of bill for this waste of time?

Mojang's desired use of the word "scrolls" seems innocent enough, but if Bethesda does not protect its copyright, other companies could produce deliberately-confusing titles like The Eldest Scrolls: Skyrings and leave Bethesda with no legal recourse.

Bethesda is in the right IMHO. Even if tradmarking things has gotten out of hand in recent years. Didnt Apple try and trademark "Apple" at one point?

 

[Treblaine]

Really, be HONEST WITH ME! You CANNOT genuinely mix up this game:

with one that has this title:

Do. Not. Lie.

I can tell if you are lying when you say ridiculous and illogical things.

I've seen people buy this:

When they wanted to buy this:

How do I know this? I worked in a store that sold them. One day they bought the former, then the next day they came in, fury in their eyes, claiming that we have some scam going on.

Also, don't claim that this isn't relevant, because you know... I said so.

Sewer rat has said much of it already but it is clear that is DESPERATELY trying to be as much like "Transformers" as possible

Sorry, you are saying A-is-like-B-is-like-C-is-like-Z. Don't do that. Call a spade a spade.

People who are just renting a film likely even not for themselves but a mother for their kid, they are hardly the hardest people to fool. But ELDER SCROLLS FANS?! And you have to be a fan to play those games, they are expensive and have a high time and skill investment, you honestly think more than a couple of people are going to be dumb enough to get those mixed up. You know how stupid that would be? This stupid:


Elder Scrolls gamers are not THAT stupid, not at all.

-"The Elder Scrolls V: SKYRIM" has 4 words difference from "SCROLLS" (While "Transmorphers" is only FIVE LETTERS in the middle of a word that is different)
-They are both in completley different font and colour scheme
-Elder Scrolls has very little emphasis on the word "scrolls"
-they will be sold differently (SCROLLS digital only, PC only)
-They are in fact different types of games

LOOK again at the top, the SKYRIM box art and the Scrolls logo! It really would be ridiculous to mix those up.

And yet to spite ALL of this... Transmorphers has earned virtually no money, Transformers is a huge monumental success that Transmorphers has not dented at all. And the IP owners of Transformers have not even hinted at suing Transmorphers to spite the MOST BLATANT attempt at having a similar trademark... yet Zenimax have the NERVE to say they are "forced" to do this?

 

[Ragsnstitches]

and more butt hurt and flames were sputtered by Notch fanboys. Apparently Notch said that he was willing to change "Scrolls" to 'Scrolls: [some subtitle]' and now he's confused as to why he's getting sued still.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GET RID OF THE SCROLLS PART.

That's what Zenimax is peeved about, the Scrolls part, so adding a subtitle doesn't solve their problem.

My overall point? Boycotting an awesome looking game because your overlord says hes completely innocent is just being stupid, please for the love of god use your brain.

I am not a Notch fanboy, but the real issue is here oppression of a large company to a small company.
and because of a stupid "law" in USA.

If you can not see it, and still argue about it, then you are a Badesta fanboy and no better than Notch fanboys which you complain about.

equating a simple word (e.g. Scrolls) with tailoring whole title (e.g. Dat Older Stories: Skyrings) is a stupid law and should be changed.

Think about it, if I make a game titled "Need Money", will EA sue me to steal the title of Need For Speed series, and will you still protect them?
Or if I make a game titled "Call The Cops", will Activision sue me to steam the title of Call Of Duty series, and will you still protect them?
It is a different game, different title and doesn't even resemble the other title.

By the way, Skyrim isn't even "awesome looking game", it has many flaws and problems.

Okay... I'll start with the most glaring problem with your comment first, which just so happens to be your last comment. Skyrim isn't even out yet, so what are you basing this entirely subjective opinion on... 20 minute demos which I might add, were all early builds?

Second point. It's not the name that's the issue. It's the context... and it's not even the "chance of mistaking them for each other" either which some people seem to think it is.

All that's needed for an issue in trademarking to arise, is a SIMILAR name, in a SIMILAR context... and that similarity has a minimum threshold.

For example, a game called "Call the Cops", would not infringe on "Call of Duty", because of the massive distinction between Cops and Soldiers, even if it's an FPS, with some level scaling MP features... if it was Call of War: Special Forces, and was a TPS with level scaling and conspiracy driven plot... then they might have a problem. The problem with the latter, is the name seems similar to the CoD franchise both in name and context, and it also adopts internal elements to that game (level scaling MP, plot devices). That's enough to ruffle feathers.

I can't say for sure what exactly is needed to cross the line and potentially infringe on a trademark, but it's up to a paid legal department to bring up potential infringements. I should also add, it's not any one component that's at fault, but the sum of it's parts.

That threshold has been crossed here. TES: Skyrim, is a Free-Roam, Fantasy, First-Person RPG, with multiple races set in an alien land... Scrolls is a Card based Fantasy RPG (turn-based?), with multiple races set in an alien land. You could also take the use of magic, the depiction of elves or the position of power that mankind has, as possible clauses of infringement, if they were at all similar. "Scrolls" is just the catalyst to the problem, but not really the problem.

That said... it's only precaution that this is going to court, not bullying, due to retarded laws that make IP's free game if you don't defend it, or make use of it.

 

[jopomeister]

I find this whole kerfuffle quite sad, but it won't stop ME from getting Skyrim. Just because some silly laws have made this mess doesn't make me any less willing to buy what looks like an amazing game...

 

[Ragsnstitches]

snip

It's not your comparison I hold to a fault... and my comparison was a lazy off the head way to catch your attention. My point was the line where I said:

"Also, don't claim that this isn't relevant, because you know... I said so."

Which is more clearly a jibe at your:

"Do. Not. Lie.

I can tell if you are lying when you say ridiculous and illogical things."

Because of all things... that is just lazy argumentation. It boils down to the playground logic of "because I said so". As I said to sewer rat, I read it as:

"You're objectively wrong based on my own subjective reasoning."

You could have flawless logic, but I ain't biting if your going to play that way. I doubt any opposition with 2 brain cells to rub together would either.

If you want to prove that Bethesda/Zenimax/The Law is in the wrong... show me something that I can read through, and formulate my own opinion. I might not agree with you, but I might respect your opinion because it was pulled out of somewhere, rather then nowhere.

I highly doubt you have the experience or knowledge to follow through with this argument without backing it up with sources. It's all knee jerk responses based on meagre updates of the whole event, usually weighted in notches favour, since he was for the longest while, the only one talking.

I should also point out, that despite all you say for Notch trying to play it nice and make peace with Bethesda... he's done a heck of a lot of PR damage from day 1... and I would put my money on it that it was deliberate.

If you have any comprehensive article that chronicles this whole ordeal*snort*, I will read it from begining to end.

I don't hate notch, but I'm not going to jump on the hate wagon towards bethesda, when from every angle I've looked at it, Notch has let his naivety of business and law bleed through every stage.

EDIT:

Also... FORCED: "9. Police Your Mark
When you discover that others are infringing or misusing your mark, you need to take action to halt such misuse. Here, too, experienced intellectual property counsel can help you. If you do not act to halt such infringement, you may jeopardize your rights to your mark. "

From this brief topic on trademarking.

http://www.ramseylawgroup.com/viewarticle.php?id=21

EDIT EDIT: That is not to say it's the right call... it's the safest call though. If they defend it and lose, they can at least keep their Trademark distinct from notches. If they don't... they could lose it altogether in a lawsuit later on down the line.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

It's not your comparison I hold to a fault... and my comparison was a lazy off the head way to catch your attention. My point was the line where I said:

"Also, don't claim that this isn't relevant, because you know... I said so."

Which is more clearly a jibe at your:

"Do. Not. Lie.

I can tell if you are lying when you say ridiculous and illogical things."

Because of all things... that is just lazy argumentation. It boils down to the playground logic of "because I said so". As I said to sewer rat, I read it as:

"You're objectively wrong based on my own subjective reasoning."

You could have flawless logic, but I ain't biting if your going to play that way. I doubt any opposition with 2 brain cells to rub together would either.

If you want to prove that Bethesda/Zenimax/The Law is in the wrong... show me something that I can read through, and formulate my own opinion. I might not agree with you, but I might respect your opinion because it was pulled out of somewhere, rather then nowhere.

I highly doubt you have the experience or knowledge to follow through with this argument without backing it up with sources. It's all knee jerk responses based on meagre updates of the whole event, usually weighted in notches favour, since he was for the longest while, the only one talking.

I should also point out, that despite all you say for Notch trying to play it nice and make peace with Bethesda... he's done a heck of a lot of PR damage from day 1... and I would put my money on it that it was deliberate.

If you have any comprehensive article that chronicles this whole ordeal*snort*, I will read it from begining to end.

I don't hate notch, but I'm not going to jump on the hate wagon towards bethesda, when from every angle I've looked at it, Notch has let his naivety of business and law bleed through every stage.

Well I have had to deal with people petty enough to simply lie by saying something like that two things completely different are actually the same. I wanted to pre-empt such ridiculous use of anti-logic to dance around the point. I know every round of reply and reply can obfuscate the central UNDENIABLE point that so many refuse to accept that from the outset and from all angles Zenimax's lawsuit is frivolous. I will NOT be lead off on a tangent.

Those two titles are SO DIFFERENT, I cannot see a logical or sensible circumstance in which they could be conflated. It was somewhat of a rhetorical question I suppose, I was trying to emphasise the (supposedly obvious) point that there are no major similarities that warrant a lawsuit. That the very basis of the lawsuit that there could be confusion is unfounded.

Do I really need any Sources on this one?

You have two sources right there, the respective titles of each game that Zenimax lawyers are taking to court as somehow so easy to confuse. What more could possibly be needed? Do you REALLY need a source to prove that the games "Dead Island" and "Dead Rising" actually exist? Really? We all know those games exist.

Notch has not done any PR damage BY TELLING THE BARE TRUTH. Zenimax did that to THEMSELVES. What do you want him to do, withhold information or actively LIE for zenimax so that their unreasonable actions are not exposed to scrutiny? You're shooting the messenger here, Zenimax has fucked up and you are scorning Notch for daring to reveal what they are trying to do!?!?

"If you have any comprehensive article that chronicles this whole ordeal*snort*, I will read it from begining to end. "

What the hell am I supposed to make of that.

I have written and article for you and I don't see what more you could possibly need. The CENTRAL ISSUE is confusion of games, those two titles side by side should say EVERYTHING! You may not have a "fault" with my comparison, but you have completely ignored with with so little consideration.

Is my explanation not good enough for you? Can the argument not stand on its own merits? Will you only accept it if you hear it come from the column of N'gai Croal?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I AM educated on this subject, I know about trademark law. Not enough to be a lawyer but what more do you expect? Do you REALLY think I have to be a god damn lawyer to stand up against blatant injustices? I certainly know enough about the industry that I am studying in. You are trying to trap me into specifics you can trap me on with pedantic disputes on.

I post sometimes on a hockey forum. One of the guys who posts there is a lawyer, and an ex-player agent. Oft-times we, as laymen and hockey fans, have preconceptions of the CBA, the way contracts work, etc, and we mouth off about it. The amount of detail that goes into his replies is staggering. There is a reason that lawyers go to law school for years to understand the law. So no, you are not educated on this subject. You saw a story on the internet, had an emotional response to it, and are now clamoring about a lawsuit you know very little about.

You keep operating on this assumption that I dislike Notch, support Bethesda, and think they are justified in pursuing this lawsuit. I've never said any such thing. I have Minecraft installed on my PC, I think very highly of Notch.

There are two sides to this story as it has been presented in the media:

1. That Notch innocently applied for a trademark, that Bethesda's bully-boy lawyers hauled him into court for it, and despite all his reasonable attempts at peacemaking they continue to unfairly persecute him.

2. That Notch, being an indie developer without a legal department to advise him, applied for a trademark without fully understanding the ramifications of trademark law, and Bethesda is now aggressively defending their trademark because the way trademark law works makes it necessary.

Do you know which one of those is the truth? I'm not asking what you THINK, I'm asking if you KNOW. Not because you think it's common sense, not because you think Notch is a swell guy, I'm asking if you know. I don't know. And because I don't know, I'm not prepared to go thundering around on an internet forum saying "THIS IS THE TRUTH", because I don't know. And I don't want to look like a fool.

For the record, I think this kind of fussy trademark infringement is silly. From what I've read about it, I think it's a silly law, and I think it leads to a lot of pointless, nuisance lawsuits like this one. But I also know that Zenimax doesn't write the laws. Stupid laws are still laws, and if you have to protect your trademark because of a stupid loophole that allows for abuse if you don't, then you do what you have to do, even if it's retarded.

 

[XenonZaleo]

People think this suit is dumb and wrong because they think it's dumb and wrong that Bethesda can own a common word.

It's as simple as that. They may have a legal case. They may win their case. But that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. People aren't mad about what the law is, they're mad about people using the law.

This isn't a situation wehre both parties are kind of in the wrong. This is all Bethesda being in the wrong. You shouldn't be able to own a common word. And any steps taken to own a common word should be met with derision and scorn. Whether that's a lawsuit or a cease and desist letter.

 

[Treblaine]

For example, a game called "Call the Cops", would not infringe on "Call of Duty", because of the massive distinction between Cops and Soldiers, even if it's an FPS, with some level scaling MP features... if it was Call of War: Special Forces, and was a TPS with level scaling and conspiracy driven plot... then they might have a problem. The problem with the latter, is the name seems similar to the CoD franchise both in name and context, and it also adopts internal elements to that game (level scaling MP, plot devices). That's enough to ruffle feathers.

I can't say for sure what exactly is needed to cross the line and potentially infringe on a trademark, but it's up to a paid legal department to bring up potential infringements. I should also add, it's not any one component that's at fault, but the sum of it's parts.

That threshold has been crossed here. TES: Skyrim, is a Free-Roam, Fantasy, First-Person RPG, with multiple races set in an alien land... Scrolls is a Card based Fantasy RPG (turn-based?), with multiple races set in an alien land. You could also take the use of magic, the depiction of elves or the position of power that mankind has, as possible clauses of infringement, if they were at all similar. "Scrolls" is just the catalyst to the problem, but not really the problem.

That said... it's only precaution that this is going to court, not bullying, due to retarded laws that make IP's free game if you don't defend it, or make use of it.

Well this law is clearly void by precedent

"Modern Warfare" and "Modern Combat" both are First Person Shooters set in modern-day fictional warzones covering the missions of soldiers.

"Dead Island" and "Dead Rising" both are about ordinary people who have to survive a zombie apocalypse using mainly melee weapons with a crafting element with the game-play element of doing quest for various NPC characters.

"That threshold has been crossed here."

No it HAS NOT!

Just because Zenimax's lawyers say so - who have a HUGE conflict of interest in deciding - that does not make it so.

"multiple races set in an alien land... fantasy"

Sorry, this is the "fantasy genre" of books, films and comics, that Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls all have in common.

"it's only precaution that this is going to court, not bullying"

Have you any idea how much it costs to take this to court? This is blatant bullying as it scares off investors, costs a lot in lawyers and frankly put the brakes on everything for an upstart indie developer. Don't kid yourself that this is harmless. Especially don't deluded yourself that this is necessary or due process.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This isn't a situation wehre both parties are kind of in the wrong. This is all Bethesda being in the wrong. You shouldn't be able to own a common word. And any steps taken to own a common word should be met with derision and scorn. Whether that's a lawsuit or a cease and desist letter.

They don't own the word "Scrolls". They own a trademark involving the use of the word "Scrolls" as used to describe a certain kind of fantasy video game.

 

[New York Patrick]

Its really funny, because in all of this, I have yet to see Notch present that there was a legitimate market for his "Scrolls" game... most of his supporters that I've seen are more concerned with "hey, its the guy who made minecraft" rather than "hey, that game sounds like something I'd play..."

A boardgame style CCG?
Do you honestly think no-one could want that?

Quite frankly Notch doesn't make games he thinks there's a 'market' for anyway, both Minecraft and Scrolls are games he made because he thought it'd be a fun idea.
THIS is why Indie devs are thriving nowadays, because they make the kinds of games THEY want to play rather then go: "Oh... FPSes are popular right now, lets make one of those."

Dude, totally not what I meant by that. I agree with the whole Indie Game Devs are prosperous because of creativity over easy mediocre success..thing..

And I'm definately not saying that everyoen should just make what kind of games are popular instead of trying to create or find new Genre Niches to explore. I mean, if they did, Minecraft wouldn't have existed, right?

What I'm simply stating is that it seems like a signifigant risk on Notch's part to have a lawsuit over the TITLE of an in development game that is more or less experimenting with a genre...

 

[Treblaine]

1. That Notch innocently applied for a trademark, that Bethesda's bully-boy lawyers hauled him into court for it, and despite all his reasonable attempts at peacemaking they continue to unfairly persecute him.

2. That Notch, being an indie developer without a legal department to advise him, applied for a trademark without fully understanding the ramifications of trademark law, and Bethesda is now aggressively defending their trademark because the way trademark law works makes it necessary.

Do you know which one of those is the truth? I'm not asking what you THINK, I'm asking if you KNOW. Not because you think it's common sense, not because you think Notch is a swell guy, I'm asking if you know. I don't know. And because I don't know, I'm not prepared to go thundering around on an internet forum saying "THIS IS THE TRUTH", because I don't know. And I don't want to look like a fool.

Number 2 is bullshit right off the bat because Mojang offered to drop the trademark and Zenimax didn't want that. They want a damages settlement or Mojang to COMPLETLEY REMOVE ALL USE OF THE WORD.

And I've said this over 20 times and STILL people keep repeating the same nonsense that this is about Notch going too far with trademarks. If it was, why wouldn't Zenimax be perfectly fine for him to back down?

For the record, I think this kind of fussy trademark infringement is silly. From what I've read about it, I think it's a silly law, and I think it leads to a lot of pointless, nuisance lawsuits like this one. But I also know that Zenimax doesn't write the laws. Stupid laws are still laws, and if you have to protect your trademark because of a stupid loophole that allows for abuse if you don't, then you do what you have to do, even if it's retarded.

Oh "it's silly" ohkay then.

This "silly" law could ruin Mojang. Another indie developer bites the dust.

"if you have to protect your trademark because of a stupid loophole "

#1 They DO NOT HAVE TO PROTECT SHIT! Nothing that Mojang did undermined Zenimax's copyright. The only abuse here is coming from Zenimax's end by demanding he change the name of his game when he depends so much on word of mouth he can't just abandon the buzz for scrolls.
#2 Even if Zenimax were paranoid they aren't even doing that. Mojang offered to drop the trademark and they didn't care. They want "damages" money, or they want him to NEVER release a game with the word "scrolls" in the title.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

#1 They DO NOT HAVE TO PROTECT SHIT! Nothing that Mojang did undermined Zenimax's copyright. The only abuse here is coming from Zenimax's end by demanding he change the name of his game when he depends so much on word of mouth he can't just abandon the buzz for scrolls.
#2 Even if Zenimax were paranoid they aren't even doing that. Mojang offered to drop the trademark and they didn't care. They want "damages" money, or they want him to NEVER release a game with the word "scrolls" in the title.

You know what? You win. Enjoy your shouting. This is exhausting.

 

[Treblaine]

This isn't a situation wehre both parties are kind of in the wrong. This is all Bethesda being in the wrong. You shouldn't be able to own a common word. And any steps taken to own a common word should be met with derision and scorn. Whether that's a lawsuit or a cease and desist letter.

They don't own the word "Scrolls". They own a trademark involving the use of the word "Scrolls" as used to describe a certain kind of fantasy video game.

Don't be thick headed.

They are using their trademark of "The Elder Scrolls" to prevent someone using the word "Scrolls".

That means you cannot use that common English Word! They de facto "own" it.