Why We Need A War - 5th Generation Fighters

[Dark Knifer]

How about we stick them in video games and see what happens instead? That way everyone can have a go with zero consequence.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

/facepalm OP snip

You may wanna spoiler tag those. Saves space.
Qutoe me to see what I did (if you don't know), Press Edit below your post and change the pictures to this:

Spoiler: F-22 Raptor

OT:

How about we stick them in video games and see what happens instead? That way everyone can have a go with zero consequence.

What this man said AKA Go buy HAWX 2. or if it doesn't have those planes wait for the third.
The reason being that if there IS a war (which quick-tip: people are kinda against, on this site) you wouldn't SEE any of the dogfights or shit. so you'd have no way of knowing which is better anyway. compare that with the dramatized trailers of HAWX 2 where there are planes fighting every 5 inches. Wouldn't you rather see that?

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

This is why the Ark Royal and F-22 was decommissioned,

Wait the HMS Ark Royale is being decommissioned? Why? Oh well. I, for some arbitrary reason, trust the British government more than the American when it comes to using fancy toys to dick-measure.

 

[s0m3th1ng]

The US, we usually tend to have air superiority in our wars. WWI was fairly balanced in the air, but we were using French planes. WWII and on, we have used our own tech to pwn all. From the P-51 Mustang, to the F4 in Vietnam, to the F-16, and now the F-22.

Look up the ME 262. Germany had vastly superior weaponry, what they lacked was numbers and sufficient timing.

This, if we hadn't bombed the ever living fuck out of their factories, or if they had a few extra months to build/develop, they would have swamped us in technologically superior armament.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!

I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

Hello Mr. Buzzkillington! How many other things have you blown way out of proportion recently?

 

[vxicepickxv]

this is why i still say the Euro-fighter, F15, etc... are better in todays world as most people you are going to be shooting will be in a cave so a air superiority fighter is useless.


few notes on the f22 and Euro-fighter:
In stealth mode the f22 is more stealthy, but as soon as it turns on its radar the Euro-fighter is harder to lock on (smaller in size and heat sig)

quote from lead engineer on the f22 "vulnerable to rain"

The vulnerability is not actually going to damage the system, it just temporarily dampens the radar suppression capabilities of the aircraft.

As for the Radar system, the system that was originally designed for the F-22 and is only being put in US model F-35 systems is what allows the F-22 and F-35 to fly with active radar in stealth mode. Analog radar display systems tend to have visual glitches, which are ignored by the radar operator. Digital radar systems typically filter out the glitches, which means they are ignored.


As for both China and Russia I will say this. They make scary looking aircraft. Russia is REALLY good at making aircraft that look tough and perform well below US standards. We haven't gotten much info from China, but this new aircraft of theirs seems to be missing quite a bit of the form, fit, and function of the F-22 and F-35. One of the biggest things that's missing is a heat signature dampener from the exhaust, plus it's more rounded than an F-22. Militarily, the US is making superior aircraft.

Financially though, we are losing, and the new MAD has nothing to do with H-bombs.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!

I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

Hello Mr. Buzzkillington! How many other things have you blown way out of proportion recently?

Quite a few, though I don't think this is one of them. The casual "yay war" attitude that military tech nerds is immensely troubling to me.

 

[SimuLord]

I don't think that fancy fighters are a good excuse for war.

[sub]Just my opinion.[/sub]

Mine as well. Dick fencing by countries showing off their toys while tens of thousands (if not millions) of soldiers die senseless deaths? We need less fancy military hardware, not more.

 

[Gudrests]

How about we stick them in video games and see what happens instead? That way everyone can have a go with zero consequence.

all im saying is....do you want to play a video game against china? Because in my experiences....that never worked out

 

[MikhailGH]

First off, start a war to see whose airplane is going to perform better? REALLY?

Anyway, half of those are just prototypes, and I still think that the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut still looks the most badass from all planes.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!

I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

Hello Mr. Buzzkillington! How many other things have you blown way out of proportion recently?

Quite a few, though I don't think this is one of them. The casual "yay war" attitude that military tech nerds is immensely troubling to me.

You do realise it was a joke, right? He's not seriously advocating we start a war to test out some planes. You're taking it too seriously.

 

[AngloDoom]

Economics trumps all.

Killing each other is bad business.
But, I think it is a bit silly to speculate on the performance of any of these aircraft against another one unless someone is an aerospace engineer, or technician with intimate knowledge of them all.

Pretty much this. Last time I interacted with a jet-fighter it was made of orange crayon and was stuck on my fridge.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!

I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

Hello Mr. Buzzkillington! How many other things have you blown way out of proportion recently?

Quite a few, though I don't think this is one of them. The casual "yay war" attitude that military tech nerds is immensely troubling to me.

That was exactly my point. Casual jokes like that about war are not cool.

 

[RA92]

WARNING Wall of text ahead

Spoiler: As for beauty and agility, nothing beats this!

Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut

I've always loved that one, thoroughly mental!

With regards to the J20, have you paid close attention to the engines? There's absolutely no attempt to give them a stealth profile at the exit points. Look at the back end of an F-117A or Raptor, they're seriously styled to reduce the radar cross-section even more.

The J20 has ordinary engines.......two giant great glowing targets. It's an OK effort, but they can do better!

EDIT: Just though I'd mention, as I'm quite proud of it, that I took that shot of the typhoon above. Two days in Wales, waiting!

I noticed the J-20's exhaust as well - needs work. But it's still just a prototype airframe, maybe they could blend the profile like the F-35 does. We just have to wait and see... for probably at least another 10 years. Oh, and kudos on that shot of the Typhoon! How the hell didya take it? Definitely worth the 2 day wait (it's currently my wallpaper - the Typhoon is my favorite delta-wing fighter, looks real dramatic with the full payload!)

As for both China and Russia I will say this. They make scary looking aircraft. Russia is REALLY good at making aircraft that look tough and perform well below US standards. We haven't gotten much info from China, but this new aircraft of theirs seems to be missing quite a bit of the form, fit, and function of the F-22 and F-35. One of the biggest things that's missing is a heat signature dampener from the exhaust, plus it's more rounded than an F-22. Militarily, the US is making superior aircraft.

Financially though, we are losing, and the new MAD has nothing to do with H-bombs.

Umm, you might want to look at the war games that India hosted a couple of years back. Sukhoi Su-30s and MiG-21s regularly cleaned the clocks of F-16s and F-15s, and the Su-27 variants are kinematically far more superior than any 4th generation fighters. F-22s changed the game, but we've yet to see what the T50 has to offer. As for stealth, like I already mentioned, the T50 is being equipped with IR scanners (which the F22 was supposed to get, but was cancelled due to budget constraints) - so they wouldn't only scan for radar signatures, but also heat signatures (a major aspect, as the F-35 lacks supercruise). Also, only the F35 will be produced in any meaningful number to be tactically viable, as the F22 has been axed. I wouldn't underestimate the Russians. As for finances: yes. You better stop the Chamber of Commerce from shipping all your jobs over to China.

I don't think that fancy fighters are a good excuse for war.

[sub]Just my opinion.[/sub]

]I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

The reason being that if there IS a war (which quick-tip: people are kinda against, on this site) you wouldn't SEE any of the dogfights or shit.

Mine as well. Dick fencing by countries showing off their toys while tens of thousands (if not millions) of soldiers die senseless deaths? We need less fancy military hardware, not more.

First off, start a war to see whose airplane is going to perform better? REALLY?

Oh dear...

First of all, let me clear something. I'm happy that all these aircrafts are being made. Okay, not happy, but positively delighted. Because it simply means that there is no single military hegemony. Any country that can acquire one of these cheaper T50s or J20s will be able to upgrade their air force. Any super-power (be it USA or China) who might gain something by attacking said nation will think twice before making any progression. What if an undetected fighter/interceptor takes out an AWAC or ECM aircraft, crippling their capabilities? What if a stealth fighter launches an anti-ship missile and deals major damage to their flotilla? What if, as a counter-attack, one their own strategic bases are hit? In short, it gives everyone (who can afford the dough) a fighting chance - unlike the situation, say, back in Vietnam, when Vietnamese second generation fighters had to fight off American third generation fighters (the F-4 Phantoms were using heat-seeking missiles, whereas the MiG-21s mostly only had guns). What you might call a dick-waggling contest (I personally call it a pissing contest) is called a deterrence by others. When everyone gets fancy hardware, it raises the stakes, and war becomes more of a last-ditch efort. I admit it's not perfect, but it's all the world has got.

And for The Spaghetti Monster's sake, when someone says "We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!" and ends it with this- you seriously need to consider whether s/he is serious. I mean, let's try to convey a serious message with that emoticon at the end:

"Boss, I just accidentally killed the two orphans who were the only people capable of saving the entire world from the armageddon that is going to initiate in about 2 minutes... ... ... "

See? DOES. NOT. WORK.

And since when did war become a touchy subject, considering we are surrounded by it? And since when was war, despite its terrible consequences, never subject to humor?

Here, I'll have a stab at it.

"What did Winston Churchill do right after WW2? Why, he decided to launch Operation Unthinkable. Which was basically attacking the Soviet Union."

Ha ha ha ha ha! See? Hilarious.

 

[Lem0nade Inlay]

Some fine looking planes right there.

I like to think America would win, I like to think so.

 

[LittleChone]

None of them - in nuclear fallout everyone is a looser. Something that ensures we *hopefully* will never see wars like WW1 and WW2 again.

Actually, hydrogen bomb bets nuclear.

By approximately 10/1

 

[Neverhoodian]

Sure these planes look cool, but the problem I have with them is they look wayyyyyyy too similar.

Give me a distinctive, ugly 'ol hog of a plane over these cookie-cutter jobs any day.

Spoiler

 

[RA92]

Sure these planes look cool, but the problem I have with them is they look wayyyyyyy too similar.

Give me a distinctive, ugly 'ol hog of a plane over these cookie-cutter jobs any day.

Spoiler

My man, it is a criminal offence not showing the size of its gun separately with a sense of scale. Therefore, presenting...

Spoiler: The GAU-8 Avenger

 

[dogenzakaminion]

It doesn't really matter as the two coolest planes ever (the F-4 Phantom II and the MiG 25) have already been invented. I do realize this is about tech and all that but screw it. Planes haven't been a deciding factor in war since WW I and it's all about having the best looking one anyway.

PS: I know planes help a lot in war and still do, but it's not as much about planes fighting planes anymore. It's just planes doing bombing runs or tactical strikes.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

WARNING Wall of text ahead

Spoiler: As for beauty and agility, nothing beats this!

Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut

I've always loved that one, thoroughly mental!

With regards to the J20, have you paid close attention to the engines? There's absolutely no attempt to give them a stealth profile at the exit points. Look at the back end of an F-117A or Raptor, they're seriously styled to reduce the radar cross-section even more.

The J20 has ordinary engines.......two giant great glowing targets. It's an OK effort, but they can do better!

EDIT: Just though I'd mention, as I'm quite proud of it, that I took that shot of the typhoon above. Two days in Wales, waiting!

I noticed the J-20's exhaust as well - needs work. But it's still just a prototype airframe, maybe they could blend the profile like the F-35 does. We just have to wait and see... for probably at least another 10 years. Oh, and kudos on that shot of the Typhoon! How the hell didya take it? Definitely worth the 2 day wait (it's currently my wallpaper - the Typhoon is my favorite delta-wing fighter, looks real dramatic with the full payload!)

As for both China and Russia I will say this. They make scary looking aircraft. Russia is REALLY good at making aircraft that look tough and perform well below US standards. We haven't gotten much info from China, but this new aircraft of theirs seems to be missing quite a bit of the form, fit, and function of the F-22 and F-35. One of the biggest things that's missing is a heat signature dampener from the exhaust, plus it's more rounded than an F-22. Militarily, the US is making superior aircraft.

Financially though, we are losing, and the new MAD has nothing to do with H-bombs.

Umm, you might want to look at the war games that India hosted a couple of years back. Sukhoi Su-30s and MiG-21s regularly cleaned the clocks of F-16s and F-15s, and the Su-27 variants are kinematically far more superior than any 4th generation fighters. F-22s changed the game, but we've yet to see what the T50 has to offer. As for stealth, like I already mentioned, the T50 is being equipped with IR scanners (which the F22 was supposed to get, but was cancelled due to budget constraints) - so they wouldn't only scan for radar signatures, but also heat signatures (a major aspect, as the F-35 lacks supercruise). Also, only the F35 will be produced in any meaningful number to be tactically viable, as the F22 has been axed. I wouldn't underestimate the Russians. As for finances: yes. You better stop the Chamber of Commerce from shipping all your jobs over to China.

I don't think that fancy fighters are a good excuse for war.

[sub]Just my opinion.[/sub]

]I don't believe you actually want a war to start (I'm at least hoping) and I imagine you just think this is a charming or witty way to frame your pose.

It's not.

There is absolutely nothing funny or cute about this suggestion. War kills people. Regardless of where you stand on the issue of it being possible to justify war, war should never be desirable for its own sake. I understand that people like to geek out over weapons, aircraft, et cetera, but ideally that takes the form of interest in the equipment itself, not in seeing it put to use killing people.

The reason being that if there IS a war (which quick-tip: people are kinda against, on this site) you wouldn't SEE any of the dogfights or shit.

Mine as well. Dick fencing by countries showing off their toys while tens of thousands (if not millions) of soldiers die senseless deaths? We need less fancy military hardware, not more.

First off, start a war to see whose airplane is going to perform better? REALLY?

Oh dear...

First of all, let me clear something. I'm happy that all these aircrafts are being made. Okay, not happy, but positively delighted. Because it simply means that there is no single military hegemony. Any country that can acquire one of these cheaper T50s or J20s will be able to upgrade their air force. Any super-power (be it USA or China) who might gain something by attacking said nation will think twice before making any progression. What if an undetected fighter/interceptor takes out an AWAC or ECM aircraft, crippling their capabilities? What if a stealth fighter launches an anti-ship missile and deals major damage to their flotilla? What if, as a counter-attack, one their own strategic bases are hit? In short, it gives everyone (who can afford the dough) a fighting chance - unlike the situation, say, back in Vietnam, when Vietnamese second generation fighters had to fight off American third generation fighters (the F-4 Phantoms were using heat-seeking missiles, whereas the MiG-21s mostly only had guns). What you might call a dick-waggling contest (I personally call it a pissing contest) is called a deterrence by others. When everyone gets fancy hardware, it raises the stakes, and war becomes more of a last-ditch efort. I admit it's not perfect, but it's all the world has got.

And for The Spaghetti Monster's sake, when someone says "We really need an all out war right now to see who wins!" and ends it with this- you seriously need to consider whether s/he is serious. I mean, let's try to convey a serious message with that emoticon at the end:

"Boss, I just accidentally killed the two orphans who were the only people capable of saving the entire world from the armageddon that is going to initiate in about 2 minutes... ... ... "

See? DOES. NOT. WORK.

And since when did war become a touchy subject, considering we are surrounded by it? And since when was war, despite its terrible consequences, never subject to humor?

Here, I'll have a stab at it.

"What did Winston Churchill do right after WW2? Why, he decided to launch Operation Unthinkable. Which was basically attacking the Soviet Union."

Ha ha ha ha ha! See? Hilarious.

First, bear me out, I realise that this sounds really self-righteous and blown-out-of-proportion, but I think the point is important to make.

Again, it has nothing to do with you actually meaning it. It has to do with jokingly saying "these things kill people, let's have a war :-D", which is troubling in other ways. There is humour about war, and the overwhelming majority of major humour about war is about the ways in which it is BAD. Catch-22 is a book about war and it's funny, but it is by NO MEANS a book about how war is fun and hilarious. Even works with pro-war messages tend to restrict themselves to darker war humour or humour about the irony of a lot of it.

It's not a touchy subject, it's a subject that's pretty resilient, but still gets uncomfortable if you touch it in certain ways.

Nor does it have to do with the actual effect of the aircrafts' production. Agree or disagree on the idea of deterrence or on justification for armament, the point still stands that "yay war" is not a great attitude. Saying it so casually "as a joke" doesn't make it any better.

It's like standing in the middle of a party and saying "Hey, check out this new gun. I can't wait to find someone to try it out on." Except we're not talking about a guy with a gun and maybe a few lives, we're talking about potentially THOUSANDS of lives. Do you think that the thousands upon thousands of people living in places that actually see these things kill their neighbors think it's all okay because it's a joke?

It's okay to joke about serious things, but it isn't okay to pretend like they're not serious because you can joke about them.