Will Half-Life 3 Outlive Public Interest Because of Development Time?

[Vigormortis]

This made me wonder, did episodes 2.1 and 2.2 (which I haven't played) break any ground in the sense HL1 & HL2 did? Or where they just re-runs of HL2?

A bit, yes.

Episode 1 introduced (along side Lost Coast) HDR lighting and a few other little graphical features. Episode 2 introduced the "cinematic physics", which were showcased first with the bridge collapse at the beginning of the game, and taken to their extreme in the opening sequences of Portal 2.

 

[flying_whimsy]

Kingdom Hearts III already lost me because it took nearly a decade longer to release than it should have, I'm really hoping half-life doesn't go down the same road.

Given that Kingdom Hearts 3 can't possibly be a direct sequel to KH2, to my knowledge, since the various games that seemed like random spin offs on a million consoles are actually integral main series entries, I'm not sure why anyone who still cared about the series after KH2 would be waiting for KH3 to continue the story. I mean Christ, KH2 was almost impossible to even follow and it only had one game between the original and it. At this point I doubt anyone could play just KH1 and 2 and have a hope of ever understanding 3.

Safe to say Half-Life isn't headed down a road resembling KH at all.

I actually liked KH2 and had no problems following it without playing chain of memories (I don't have handhelds so I haven't played any of the other kh games), so

Anyway, for half-life we've also had blue shift and opposing force between hl1 and hl2, and then we had the two episodes after hl2 and the spin-off that is portal (and that's not mentioning the console exclusive campaign for the original game, the 2d remake, or the lost coast technical demo). I hadn't thought about it more than a comparison for time spent waiting, but there's more similar between the series than I gave it credit for. That's actually worrying.

 

[Torchiest]

And the thing with nowadays is, I don't think there is any remaining ground left to break. Games could always look a little better, but there are no more great quantum leaps like physics engines to be made, the kind of thing that can drive new gameplay that turns heads.

Famous last words. There's ALWAYS more ground to break. Never underestimate human creativity.

 

[Callate]

Well, Valve does have its own hat in the VR ring, and one of their demos apparently showcases a take on Portal's world.

Which is certainly alleged to be Half-Life's world as well.

If they wanted to assure their standard's place in the VR world, tying Half-Life 3 into it would be far from the stupidest idea. Despite all the protestations, I think an awful lot of people would be curious if Half-Life 3 were to materialize, in any form.

...Yet realistically, it's a little hard for me to believe that if HL3 were still in production, someone wouldn't have leaked something by now. I know Valve is a smaller and tighter ship than many, but it's been an awfully long time for everyone to keep something people are camping out on your lawn in desire for completely under wraps.

If it were to happen, though, my advice to Valve would be to half-step it. Release Half-LIfe 2:Episode 3 as the frosting on a revolutionary new version of Source, wrap up the existing plot threads, then move in a completely new direction with HL3 (which would almost certainly necessitate a very different style of game-play to incorporate well with a VR headset anyway.) The further adventures of Gordon Freeman across the multiverse... or whatever.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Honestly, I think they're missing a trick here. Release Half-life 3... and have Gordon acquire the portal gun in the first half-an-hour. Boom, FPS with portals. The Combine won't know what hit them... (I have to assume they've tried this, and that it didn't play well for some reason. Pity...)

As cool as it sounds, I think the portal gun would make it way too easy. Unless we're fighting extremely mobile and agile versions of the turrets from Portal, exploiting normal enemies is going to be way too easy. This is assuming that you'd be able to use the gun on most surfaces seeing as if you couldn't, you'd run the risk of just turning it into a gimmick. From what I've experienced in most games, mobility trumps just about anything, and the portal gun his pretty much as mobile as you can get.

As far as my personal interest in HL3, I don't really care anymore. To be honest, I doubt it's ever coming out.

What can they do with a Portal gun though? After writing a way for it to make portals anywhere and not just on moons what will you do? Use it to fall out of the world? Kill every enemy by teleporting them to high places? I think it would be very hard to kill enemies with it honestly, especially in tight hallways and when guns are a faster easier way to go about it. Since that is out of the picture they could just have the player solve puzzles with it or something. Except the game Portal already exists and exploited those gameplay possibilities for all they're worth back in 2011. Damn.

I was thinking more along the lines of abusing enemies by shooting them in the backs with portals positioned behind them, then simply closing said portal when they turn to react. Simply using them to more easily get around the battlefield would be a huge advantage. Imagine if you were playing an online shooter and you could teleport at will and nobody else good. It would be insanely overpowered. Who knows though, maybe the next HL3 game's biggest contribution to gaming will be incredible AI that is actually up to the challenge of dealing with someone of your capabilities. That would be a pretty amazing game.

 

[Falsename]

Am I the only one who heard Gabe tell people that Half Life 3 pretty much won't exist. (Something about wanting to avoid the same problems that Portal 2 had).

Half Life 3 isn't coming. Sorry. I'm sad too but it's best to just move on.

How long will it be before we accept this? Ten years? Twenty?

 

[G00N3R7883]

Btw Yahtzee, that whole innovation thing you were talking about? AI. Enemy AI. NPC AI. Characters that react to the player's actions in believable ways. It can influence FPS tactics. It can influence RTS and TBS tactics. It can influence open world games and narrative driven games. But it also requires developers to drop their obsession with graphics so ... not holding my breath.

But if they did that the gameplay would be so different why bother making it a Half Life game? Half Life is an FPS and its innovations made the FPS genre better. What you are talking about it making a new genre or possibly just mixing genres. It would be like innovating Star Fox by making it more like Armored Core and Cooking Mama. At that point they would rather sell that as a new IP instead of as an FPS. Thats why the Portal games weren't Half Life games even though they were in the same world. Basically there isn't much you can do with the gameplay of FPS that would wow people the way the first two games did and thus no matter what they do it will either be disappointing or it will be Half Life game that feels and plays nothing like Half Life. I'm pretty sure that cliff hanger ending must be one of Valves biggest regrets now because of that.

First of all, maybe I wasn't clear in my first post, but I wasn't talking about making Half Life into another genre. Obviously I still want Half Life to be a FPS (maybe I'd be okay with a more open world FPS but that's another debate ... the recent Wolfenstein was linear and that was awesome). All I was saying is that the next great video game innovation should be better AI and it would improve pretty much every genre.

Secondly, if you don't think improved enemy AI can make FPSes better, I don't really know what to say. No more enemies that stand still while you shoot the guy standing next to them from a long distance. No more enemies that think tactics equals "hide behind a crate, occasionally stand up and then crouch, repeat". Enemies that will actually work together, use the level design to flank you. How about when you've got a special enemy with a powerful gun, and a few weaker minions, you kill the special one first because its the bigger threat ... and one of the weaker ones picks up that gun? There are so many things you can do with smarter enemies and yes, if the developers do it right, players would be excited.

 

[Batou667]

Yahtzee didn't like Ravenholm!? Only last week he was waxing lyrical about the joys of the gravity gun, and Ravenholm is the perfect showcase for it. Hell, the Orange Box version of the game has an achievement for using just the Gav Gun for that section.

Yes, the level design is pretty friggin' garbage, but you could say the same for much of HL2. It's amazing how unintuitive so much of HL2 is, especially when you compare it to Valve's later stuff like Portal and Left for Dead, which were both series with excellent character and level design, very intuitive signposting, audio prompts for different types of events, and so on. Playing through HL2 there were multiple times where I got lost (a feat in itself in such linear environments) and with no idea what to do or where to go, and resorted to just pressing every switch indiscriminately, shooting every door in the hopes that one might be destructible, and so on - which basically means that the lead level designer was doing their job wrong. It also suffered from the thing where you're encountering a situation and you're left wondering, is this a boss fight? A stealth section? Should I be going Rambo or conserving my ammo for the real fight around the next corner? I found Episodes 1 and 2 both got progressively better on those scores though.

This made me wonder, did episodes 2.1 and 2.2 (which I haven't played) break any ground in the sense HL1 & HL2 did? Or where they just re-runs of HL2?

I'd say they were a logical - and worthwhile - extension and expansion of HL2. For my money they were much "tighter" and better designed than HL2, and also demonstrate some evolution of the game. HL2 was a game that at times felt very chained to its pre-Millennial roots, with linear environments, very obviously scripted bits, floaty and unsatisfying guns (and by the end of the game you'd be carrying about two dozen of the bastard things), and a bit of a "red key to open the red door" mindset in general, if that makes any sense. EP1 and 2 I thought had much better characterisation - I found myself actually giving a flying fuck about Alyx, rather than her just being some indestructible girlfriend/mother surrogate who turns up when prompted - and the open world and sandbox elements seemed better too. Some of it is understandably well-trodden ground - only so many variations on see-saw and stepping-stone physics puzzles after all - but it's much more polished. The ending is a complete ass-pull, but hey ho.

If I had stopped playing at the end of HL2, I would have given the overall experience a 6/10. The addition of ep1 and 2 bumps that up to 8/10 for me.

 

[LordFeast58]

Well, considering that we won't even hear about Half Life 3 or Half Life Episode 3 development anytime soon, lets just hope some ambitious modders decided to make their own canon or continuity of the Half Life sequel. We already got the tool such as Garry's Mod or others which already have the potential of making good games, let alone making another Half Life 2. With good story, good gameplay and a satisfying conclusion, everyone who already played Half Life and Half Life 2 will probably be happy, as well as Valve so they don't have to disappoint fans and gamers alike.

Valve of course, should support the modders development of the Half Life unofficial sequel, unless they are not happy because they actually DO making the sequel, or they decided to make a cease and desist, just for being ridiculous.

 

[Varadar]

I started thinking a long time ago that HL 3 may come out like Duke Nukem Forever (if it comes out at all). In fact, what was so great and unique about the HL series? The introduction of scripted event in gameplay. Of course, now linear scripted shooters are in no way unique, so HL3 doesn't look so interesting as it has been before.

 

[Vorpal_Smilodon]

I don't see how Yahtzee could miss the possibility Valve is going to release Half-Life 3 alongside their VR headset and controller as a sort of killer app.

 

[thanatos388]

What can they do with a Portal gun though? After writing a way for it to make portals anywhere and not just on moons what will you do? Use it to fall out of the world? Kill every enemy by teleporting them to high places? I think it would be very hard to kill enemies with it honestly, especially in tight hallways and when guns are a faster easier way to go about it. Since that is out of the picture they could just have the player solve puzzles with it or something. Except the game Portal already exists and exploited those gameplay possibilities for all they're worth back in 2011. Damn.

It's not for killing the enemies directly, it's for shaping the battlefield. Open a portal behind the enemy's cover and shoot the hell out of them. Chuck a grenade through the portal, then close the portal so you don't get caught in the blast. Portal to the high ground and close it so they can't follow you. Portal exploding barrels next to the enemy. Redirect enemy rockets. Put a portal on the floor of a narrow choke point so the enemy can't get through. There are plenty of possibilities.

I think that would be very difficult to build into every environment and not have it just be easier to do it the usual way. And the benefit versus the cost of having enemies doing the same to you could easily be too much in most situations.

Btw Yahtzee, that whole innovation thing you were talking about? AI. Enemy AI. NPC AI. Characters that react to the player's actions in believable ways. It can influence FPS tactics. It can influence RTS and TBS tactics. It can influence open world games and narrative driven games. But it also requires developers to drop their obsession with graphics so ... not holding my breath.

But if they did that the gameplay would be so different why bother making it a Half Life game? Half Life is an FPS and its innovations made the FPS genre better. What you are talking about it making a new genre or possibly just mixing genres. It would be like innovating Star Fox by making it more like Armored Core and Cooking Mama. At that point they would rather sell that as a new IP instead of as an FPS. Thats why the Portal games weren't Half Life games even though they were in the same world. Basically there isn't much you can do with the gameplay of FPS that would wow people the way the first two games did and thus no matter what they do it will either be disappointing or it will be Half Life game that feels and plays nothing like Half Life. I'm pretty sure that cliff hanger ending must be one of Valves biggest regrets now because of that.

First of all, maybe I wasn't clear in my first post, but I wasn't talking about making Half Life into another genre. Obviously I still want Half Life to be a FPS (maybe I'd be okay with a more open world FPS but that's another debate ... the recent Wolfenstein was linear and that was awesome). All I was saying is that the next great video game innovation should be better AI and it would improve pretty much every genre.

Secondly, if you don't think improved enemy AI can make FPSes better, I don't really know what to say. No more enemies that stand still while you shoot the guy standing next to them from a long distance. No more enemies that think tactics equals "hide behind a crate, occasionally stand up and then crouch, repeat". Enemies that will actually work together, use the level design to flank you. How about when you've got a special enemy with a powerful gun, and a few weaker minions, you kill the special one first because its the bigger threat ... and one of the weaker ones picks up that gun? There are so many things you can do with smarter enemies and yes, if the developers do it right, players would be excited.

Yeah I made a mistake. I thought you wanted improved AI that would lead to RTS segments in the game. Similar to what was in Brutal Legends I suppose. Which is why I said it wouldn't be a Half Life game and that it wouldn't improve FPSs too much. But if Valve were able to have complex enemy and ally AI to the point that it looked something like what Naughty Dog lied to us about in the marketing for Last of Us that would be great and of course would elevate the genre. Sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZYkj0glnqs

 

[Steve the Pocket]

The problem is less that there was nowhere to innovate after 2; it's that the innovation has largely been done by other studios. We've already gotten games in progressively-loading open-world environments, for example, and the destruct-o-physics that would be the logical next step for a series renowned for its physics engine and the gleeful abuse thereof. If Valve is OK treading ground that's already been done, there should be no problem. And it's not like they've lost their ability to make exciting set pieces; Portal 2 and even Left 4 Dead 2 to an extent showed that they've still got the chops.

If all that's holding them back is that they feel the need to create something that would be considered worth waiting this long, well, that's a catch-22, frankly. If it's a case of having literally run out of ideas, period... well that's what happens when you cram all the ideas you had the first time around into one game and then throw the leftovers into a pair of expansion packs, I guess.

Am I the only one who heard Gabe tell people that Half Life 3 pretty much won't exist. (Something about wanting to avoid the same problems that Portal 2 had).

[citation needed]

 

[LOLITRON]

[citation needed]

http://podcast.gameslice.com/1-gabe-newell-and-erik-johnson-from-valve

I believe that's the interview he's referencing. Gabe pretty much states that unless a bunch of people at Valve want to make HL3, it's not going to happen due to all of the problems that happened with shipping Portal 2 or something. Bunch of people were talking about this a few weeks back.

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

I actually made a thread with a similar subject to this one last year ( "Are Valve even AWARE of how badly they're screwing up?" [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.860463-Are-Valve-even-AWARE-of-how-badly-theyre-screwing-up]) questioning whether Half-Life 3/Episode 3/whatever has been delayed so long, with absolutely no indication that Valve are even working on it at all, that it's missed its time and people just don't care about it any more. The general reaction of the thread was "so what?", mostly claiming that Valve themselves don't care about Half-Life 3 at all either, which I took pretty much as agreement.

Maybe Yahtzee is right that Valve don't want to release Half-Life 3 without some new innovation or gimmick for it to showcase, but that's still a stupid and irresponsible thing to do. I want to know what happened after the cliffhanger ending of episode 2, dammit!

 

[webkilla]

Ya pretty much...

Its been so long since Halflife 2 Ep 2 - making a Halflife 3 - it has so much legacy to live up to. I doubt it would ever be possible to live up to the expectation

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Like many, I wish they would've just released Ep.3 and just be done with it. But it's past the point of my interest anyway, I can't say I'd be more excited for HL3 than I would any other franchise to be honest. As in, if I heard news of it, I'd still just wait till it came out, watch a couple reviews, play it once it's on sale, and forget about it.

Would be a tragedy if it was a repeat of Duke Nukem, that game I still gave it a go because the first few played a pretty big part in my early gaming days, but I couldn't even bring myself to finish it, as painful as it was.

 

[Sampler]

So, they have to innovate for HL3 - developed for VR headsets like Oculus? Half Life 3D?

 

[Gregio]

And the thing with nowadays is, I don't think there is any remaining ground left to break. Games could always look a little better, but there are no more great quantum leaps like physics engines to be made, the kind of thing that can drive new gameplay that turns heads.

Famous last words. There's ALWAYS more ground to break. Never underestimate human creativity.

I'm glad someone said that.
The thing about innovation is you can never (in theory) predict it. You can't say, there's nothing else to be invented, most "innovations" in games nowadays are just a way to use something already there better, or pull off some theory people already wanted, but real innovation, real innovation is when something pops up no one could have predicted, it was simply new, hence innovative.

So something crazy, like, finding out that dating simulators are actually the best way to tell a story about world war 2 with good player interaction. Or making a high-precision game that plays better on guitar hero controllers, those would be real innovations.

 

[Nazulu]

I don't get that Yahtzee. Half Life 2's day cycles and different tones a gimmick? How can it be a gimmick? It's not like it was the only thing the whole game was designed around. It's just for different scenery, and that's meant to be a good thing.

Also Half Life 3 shouldn't be expected to be ground breaking. I don't believe picking guns off the floor like normal to be something no one else would think of, or adding more detail to the story, or whatever. The thing that divides Half Life from the rest to me is how it switches up the challenges so quickly, and that they're great quality experiences in general (HL & HL2). HL3 just needs to perform well and switch up just as well as the previous games, including to finish the damn story, and it should be taken well.

There will always be some public interest in the next since it's still the top series.